Talk:Gun Control Act of 1968

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the Firearms WikiProject, a project devoted to the improvement of firearms coverage on Wikipedia with an emphasis on civilian firearms. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

Firebug: Please do not vandalize wikipages based on your non-NPOV.Mlorrey 01:32, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Once again, please do not vandalize wikipages based on your POV. You may think the JPFO is a fringe group but their documentation has stood up against independent scrutiny and is accepted history. I will have to report you in an RFC if you keep up this revisionistic vandalism.Mlorrey 20:16, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

First of all, please do not accuse me or other users of "vandalism" for making legitimate edits you disagree with. It is considered a personal attack. Secondly, it is utterly inappropriate to include fringe theories such as "Nazi origins" so prominently in the introduction. I will include a small section at the end, if you insist, although frankly I don't think these crackpot allegations from a tiny crackpot group deserve even that level of prominence. But I'm not going to allow you to turn this article into a soapbox. Firebug 02:27, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Allow you"? WTF? Are you the king of wikiland? Who the hell do you think you are? You are so obviously ignorant of the gun rights movement and second amendment issues you shouldn't have any editing authority whatsoever with any issues related to this. You are clearly a vandal here. That you continue to vandalize after I have requested mediation demonstrates clear bad faith on your part and further evidence of your vandalistic motives. It is a true personal attack to destroy the work of others because of your personal political agenda. Mlorrey 03:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not going to continue to discuss this issue with you, since you are so clearly unable to distinguish opinion from fact in regards to this issue. I strongly suggest that you edit other articles not related to gun issues instead, and leave gun articles alone. All that you are doing here is creating unnecessary work for myself and other editors who have been reverting your repeated POV insertions. Firebug 05:28, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't deal in opinion. I have been hip deep in the shooting sports since childhood. I know what is fact and fiction, and frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. The only persons here inserting opinion is you and Meelar who are injection your left-wing anti-gun opinions by editing out facts which contradict or bring discredit upon your sides propaganda. I strongly suggest you back off and stop trying to edit reality out of existence. Mlorrey 13:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Uh...ok, glad that got sorted out. Anyway, does the GCA also bar transfer of NFA weapons that were imported after its passage? I read that here: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/nfa_faq.txt where it says

On top of the FOPA machine gun restrictions, any NFA weapon imported into the U.S. after the Gun Control Act took effect (end of 1968) cannot be transferred to an individual. See 26 U.S.C. sec. 5844. They can be transferred to SOT's, although without any written police demonstration request, and kept by the SOT after surrendering his SOT. These are sometimes called "pre-86 samples", or "dealer samples", although dealer sample can be used to refer to either a post-86 machine gun or to any NFA weapon imported after 1968.

...but that's the only discussion of that I've found. If that's the case, it would be good for the article to mention that, as well as any other restrictions.

Contents 1 importation vs transfer and other things 1.1 FFL 1.2 About FFL and "selling for profit" 2 FFL System -- Private Sales 3 JPFO/Nazis

[edit] importation vs transfer and other things

Yes, it is legal to make transfers of machine guns imported between 68 and 86. It is even legal to import MGs to this day. However, post-86 guns cant be transferred to civilians, so the importation becomes a moot point. In all cases where "weapon x is legal for transfer, but only legal to import by person Y" you can buy the weapons off Y after he imports them. See U.S. v. Vollmer, 1 F.3d 1511 (7th Cir. 1993) for an illustration of a dealer arranging for national guardsmen to purchase semiauto steyr-augs (banned as "unsporting" by the 89 ban under authority granted by the 68 GCA) and then resell them to him. He was found not guilty, but the guardsmen were convicted of lying during importation.

The 68 GCA is really the root of all the evil that the ATF has visited upon gun dealers and owners for the past 40 years. Without the FFL system, you could purchase firearms through the mail and the ATF would not be able to attack a very small number of registered dealers. Remember that the requirements for being an FFL is that the ATF can make warrantless administrative searches (no 4th amendment) and be open during regular business hours so they can be entrapped at any time into a violation.

The idea is basically to limit the number of people that can legally transact in firearms. In 1968, it was probably about 200 million (adults not including felons). Thanks to ATF harassment and raising of the FFL fees, the number is now down to 50k nationwide.

Also, without the 68 GCA there would be no sporting purposes bans (89 and 94). Beerslurpy 18:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FFL

The FFL section needs some work. Example: ” A person who does not have a Federal Firearms License may not sell and buy guns from other people for the purpose of making a profit” Is not correct because type 3 FFL’s are not suppose to be in business of making a profit.

It also list states that don’t have privet sells which is not part of the GCA. Maybe just a small note and link to state laws or something is needed.

[edit] About FFL and "selling for profit"

The problem is that the FFL thing is very vague and the ATF has long interpreted it BOTH ways. IE, if you apply for an FFL, they will turn you down as saying you dont have enough likely sales volume to justify it. But if you go ahead and start selling off your collection, they arrest you for selling firearms without an FFL. Happened many times since 68.

Many gun owners responded by simply sending in the paperwork and becoming FFLs, even if they werent actually gun dealers. They would call their kitchen or living room the "shop" and keep bound books and all the ATF paperwork. It was an inconvenience but at 10 dollars a year, it was a pretty good deal for someone who would otherwise have to pay for transfers, so there were about a quarter million people were FFLs at any given time. During the Clinton years, a bunch of gun dealers and the anti-gunners got together and decided it would be good (for different reasons) to restrict the FFL system and make it more difficult to become an FFL- so they upped the fee to 200 dollars and required that they actually be a) businesses b) have inspectable public areas and a storefront c) regular business hours d) comply with all state and local laws. And "state and local laws" didnt mean just gun laws, it meant zoning laws and business regulations. If you live in a residential area (as most people do), obviously you cant operate a business. This cut the numbers down (I beleive) about 90 percent as all the non-dealers and the small dealers closed up shop. Thus creating business for the gun dealers and restricting the avenues of gun supply for the average person.

Since then I dont know what the ATF deal is with buying and selling guns for profit. I heard somewhere that the number is 4 per year, but that isnt legally binding and the FFL might prosecute you for less or decline to prosecute you for far more. Administrative law is different from ordinary civil cases, but in my shallow understanding, you could probably use FOIA requests to get the ATF to separately justify what qualifies someone for FFL licensing and what qualifies someone for prosecution of selling without one. If there is a considerable gap between the two, you sue seeking some sort of remedy (since the crime is selling without an FFL and their rules deny you one), showing proof you fit in that gap. I strongly suspect that this has already been done at some point, but I dont get to take admin law until next year, so I have no idea. Beerslurpy 20:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

---

FFLs are not vague it is ATF interpretations that are vague so I think we should try to stay away from those for the most part. There is more information need for the article though that is not ATF interpretations like the different types of FFLs outlined by the GCA. How the atf actually hands the new FFL system with the various forms and required keeping requirements. (Which are already in the actual but could be re written)

Some of the history on the way things worked before the GCA and after. Maybe even add some of the ATF interpretation stuff that is historical and documented about the changes to the FFL system since 68. (Even all the other silly requirements that the ATF requires now to get a FFL)

By the way there is no number of firearms that you can or can’t sell until the atf calls you a dealer. The profit thing would be a good thing to work in with the FOPA changes to the FFL system maybe in a history section. --65.219.181.82 19:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FFL System -- Private Sales

In the section "FFL System" I deleted "Illinois" from the sentence "States that do not allow private sales: California, District of Columbia, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York." Illinois does allow private sales, i.e. firearm sales where neither the seller nor the buyer has an FFL. This is explained on the Illinois State Police web site, in the document Acquiring or Transferring Firearms in Illinois. Mudwater 03:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] JPFO/Nazis

Please stop removing the JPFO/Nazi paragraph. It was at weaselly at one time, but at current the only weasel remaining is "disputed by some" which hardly justifies the removal of the entire paragraph. -- Scott e^iπ 05:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

In fact, perhaps "disputed by some" ought to be removed. The only source for this that I can find online is some history professor on a mailing list [1][2] who refers to the findings as a "piece of lunacy" with no further elaboration. -- Scott e^iπ 06:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It may not be "weaselly," but the section is poorly written and its claims are stated as facts and unattributed. The argument isn't based on "JPFO's findings," it's based on their allegations. The article says that Dodd asked the LoC to translate the Nazi act and "adapt its language to the American legal system." That isn't supported by the reference. Since this is a "controversy," you should attribute the "side-by-side comparison of the two laws" to its source: "JPFO says that a side-by-side comparison etc."

On its site, JPFO says that "[t]he framers of GCA 68 apparently borrowed even the idea of classifying weapons according to their 'sporting purpose' from the Nazi Law's 'hunting weapons' terminology." In order to take an allegation like that seriously, one would have to know that there was no precedent in American law — or other law of more recent vintage than the Nazi law — of "classifying weapons according to their 'sporting purpose'" before this act.

Finally, are you serious? JPFO says things like "[I]deas about race underlay GCA 68. And ideas about race underlay the 1938 Nazi Weapons Law." That's innuendo, not proof, and it really doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 23:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Malik Shabazz. These are allegations made by the JPFO. This is kind of thing does not belong in a Wikipedia article. I'm going to remove it. There is absolutely no proof that the Gun Control Act of 1968 was modeled after or inspired by a Nazi laws. MiFeinberg 15:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, unless this can be cited it is POV and violates WP:NPOV. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 16:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There were two cites in the removed material. Why are we removing cited information? WP is not supposed to be censored. Yaf 16:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

If you're going to engage in scholarship, the first question you have to ask yourself is, "Is this source reliable?" And if anything discounts a source's reliability, it's a source's having a political agenda. The JPFO is a shrill, propogandistic group incapable of making an objective opinion. If you think the group's being Jewish somehow gives its opinion on this matter authority, think again. Including this paragraph in this article really demeans Wikipedia as an objective, reliable source for information. I'm removing. Hashaw 16:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

That sections citations violate Links normally to be avoided Sections, 1,2,4,6 and 13 In order for this section to be readded it must follow WP:NPOV and the citation links must adhere to the Links policy. Purgatory Fubar ^Converse or Snafu 16:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC)