Wikipedia talk:Guide to layout

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Note: Some of these topics are also being discussed at Wikipedia talk:Cite sources - you might want to check there too for relevant discussions.

Contents

[edit] Introductory material

I rewrote this section in response to a question on the Village Pump for more clarity. It is my intention to have it reflect de facto policy, not to introduce new policy: all featured article I've seen follow these guidelines. Also, I've removed the sentence that confusingly named "Overview" as a common title for the first section (is it really? Any prominent examples?) but simultaneously called it not to be preferred. Either "Overview" is a decent and acceptable title for the first section, or it isn't. If it isn't, then it shouldn't be mentioned, or else explicitly forbidden. A guide is not the best place for wishy-washyness. JRM 17:46, 2005 Jan 26 (UTC)

EVERY section should be present in the table of contents (that's technical writing 101), and in order for that to happen, the first section MUST have a section header. I generally call this first section "Overview". But recently, because of this "Guide to layout", I am now having to deal with people coming into an article and removing the first section's header! Please change the Guide to layout to reflect proper technical writing practice: if there is more than one section, and if any of those sections have headings, then every section, including the first one, should have a heading. -- BBlackmoor (talk), 2006-02-1 T 16:40 Z

[edit] Comments on a header

I just found an article that had all the "Edit" links messed up, most of them edited the next section after the one they should have. I tracked it down to a comment that was after a heading, (===Heading===<!-- Comment -->). Should this be pointed out in this guide, or is this too trivial a point to mention? Alternatively, should this be considered a bug in MediaWiki? — PhilHibbs | talk 15:32, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

This only causes a problem if there is no space between the = and the < though — PhilHibbs | talk 16:05, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discographies?

Also posted at Wikipedia talk: WikiProject Albums:

Can we get a consensus on discography formatting. The general standard way to do it in the past was to simply list the albums, the year of release ,and possibly a chart oposition or two. But now, we have articles like Mariah Carey albums discography and 50 Cent which seem intent on including album cover artwork, and multiple facts about the album. Such a system is image-heavy and slow loading ,and can also very quickly take over ap age for any act with more than four or five albums. It also only works if you find album cover artwork for each and every album (which may not always even exist). What should be done about this? --FuriousFreddy 20:32, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wikify?

Wikify redirects to this article, but it doesn't explain the term. Could someone add an explanation, please? I've seen it used, but unsure if it refers specifically to making internal links using double square brackets, or if it's more general. Thanks --Singkong2005 00:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I found the definition in Wikipedia:Glossary. I had searched this article for wikify whereas only the word wikified appears in the article. --Singkong2005 01:16, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Irony...

The number of single-sentence paragraphs should be minimized, since these can inhibit the flow of the text; by the same token, paragraphs become hard to read once they exceed a certain length.

Is it just me or is that statement just a little ironic? :) Justin 19:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sometimes bulleted bibliographies don't work

I prefer when including notes on works in a bibliography to use prose. (See this Britannica article on T.S. Eliot as an example.) Using prose makes it easier to give details on the sources. Using bulleted lists makes series such as these too long and confusing. Listing works for further reading using bullets works when the items don't need comments, but otherwise, it's best to use prose, in my opinion. Perhaps we could add a note to the Bibliography section of the "Guide to layout" aticle on this? --Primetime 03:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Users may find bulleted lists most useful. They can print one out and use it as checklist (for example, to see what books are available in theschool library.) Furthermore it is much easier to insert new titles into a bulleted list that is in alphabetical order.Rjensen 09:01, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wikify stubs?

I'm finding several stub articles that are tagged wikifiy, but they already seem to be formatted as well as can be expected given their very brief length. An example is Angiology -- it has an introduction, a body, and a list of references. Key terms are wiki links to related articles. It's too short to have any headings or subheadings beyond the one References section. How does one wikify this sort of stub article? Wesley 17:52, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

It may have been placed by someone who expected to see every noun rendered in blue. Or it may have been placed before the article was wikified at all, and no-one has since been WP:BOLD enough to remove the tag after some wikifying. Article does still need some cleanup, but lack of wikilinks isn't the main concern, you're right. Jkelly 18:09, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] “Navigation” as standard appendix

On Wikipedia talk:Section#“Navigation” as standard appendix, I am proposing the addition of a new standard appendix. Since it is relevant here as well, I thought I should make a note of that proposal here.

— DLJessup (talk) 17:31, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] bullet points

I just want to query the recomendation about bullet points. In Jakob Nielsen web usability website useit.com there is an article on How Users Read on the Web

People rarely read Web pages word by word; instead, they scan the page, picking out individual words and sentences. In a recent study John Morkes and I found that 79 percent of our test users always scanned any new page they came across; only 16 percent read word-by-word. As a result, Web pages have to employ scannable text, using

  • highlighted keywords (hypertext links serve as one form of highlighting; typeface variations and color are others)
  • meaningful sub-headings (not "clever" ones)
  • bulleted lists
  • one idea per paragraph (users will skip over any additional ideas if they are not caught by the first few words in the paragraph)
  • the inverted pyramid style, starting with the conclusion
  • half the word count (or less) than conventional writing

I certainly find myself doing this with wikipedia articles, big blocks of text tend to phase me (perhaphs because of my dyslexia). I would contend that we have to remember our primary medium is the web and not print and we should write articles accordingly. So

  • Bullet points are good.
  • They allow users to scan pages
  • which allows them to get the idea of the whole article
  • and also find the information they are looking for more easily.

Thoughs? --Salix alba (talk) 20:32, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

In general I agree, but bullet points can also be abused. I disagree with the notion of breaking a single sentence apart into multiple bullets, as you did with the last 3. On the other hand, a simple edit can fix that, especially with sub-bullets. So
  • Bullet points are good.
  • They allow users to scan pages
  • Users get the "big picture" easier
  • Users find the information they are looking for more easily.
--Joe Sewell 17:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is citation style still debatable?

I thought we now have an excellent set of templates. patsw 04:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] specify the scope of "See also"

Would anybody oppose specifying that "See also" links should ideally not be already linked from in the body of the article? Circeus 02:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I would oppose. I think a "See Also" section should be a list of related topics, even if they are mentioned in the body of the article.
1. You don't have to read the entire article to find other similar topics. Related material can be identified quickly.
2. This is how paper encyclopedias do it.

Rearden9 14:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the disambiguation subhead

Maybe I'm blind – I don't see anything about the italicized line that appears at the top of a number of articles, This article is about Foo in the context of Baz. For that other kind of Foo, see elsewhere. The usage is obvious from examples, but I was looking for what to call that line! —Tamfang 02:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

It's called a hatnote. Rich Farmbrough, 09:51 7 September 2006 (GMT).

[edit] Alphabetizing (and otherwise arranging) "See also" sections?

On several pages, like Standard deviation, the See Also section is a bit unruly. That is, there are no descriptions and the order seems to be random. On the other hand, it might not seem logical to divide the links into groups, because

  1. There really aren't that many links; it's just disorganized.
  2. Most of the topics branch in different directions, and grouping them would result in too many catergories. This also clutters up the user interface.

So perhaps the best solution is alphabetization (or alphabetisation). If this rule was to be added to this page, however, instead of just applying to one article, it would have to be a standard and all pages similar to Standard Deviation would have to conform. How should one go about organizing See also sections? --Gracenotes T § 23:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of templates, categories, and interwiki links

I don't see mention of this anywhere, in my quick search for it, so I propose the following addition to the Guide to Layout (or is it a Manual of Style issue?):

After the entire text of the article (including the References, See also, and External links sections), the order should be: templates (for stubs and the like), then categories, then interwiki links.

The logic being that stubs are part of the article itself, so they should be within the boundaries of the article text. After that come the categories, because they are describing and sorting the article. Finally, come the interwiki links, because they (ideally) contain everything above them, but in a different language. Thoughts? —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 05:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Stub tags go better at the very end, else the stub category is placed first, which is contrary to the common practice of putting most important categories first. Also stub tags need 2 clear newlines before them, else they become appended to the preceding text, this looks messy unless they are at the very end. Martin 10:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I've crosslinked this section from Wikipedia talk:Categorization#Order of listing of categories within an article. jnestorius(talk) 23:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Horizontal lines

I'm not sure when the specific injunction not to separate a dablink from the articles was introduced, or where it was discussed, but what is the rationale? As I find it both sensible (in that it clearly divides off the article from material that isn't part of it) and aesthetically acceptable, I always use it. I've come across those who claim to find it jarringly hideous – something I find difficult to understand – but I take it that that's not the reason for its being "forbidden".

Ah, I've just discovered when it appeared in the article: five days ago. No wonder that I didn't remember seeing it before. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I like the line, too. — Omegatron 20:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Reverting. This has been the standard since 2004-05-16. As noted in the edit comment, the text was merged here from the old Wikipedia:Section (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs).
--William Allen Simpson 03:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I am considering merging this page with several others. Please discuss at this page. Gareth Aus 22:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

While I haven't completely merged the two articles, I'm looking to at least cut down on redundancy of this page and the "Guide to writing...". Please see Gareth's page above if you have any objections. User:RockOfVictory/Appendices order draft. --J. J. 17:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I've completed the overhaul. In revising this page, I've attempted to retain all existing section names. This is why, for example, I did not rename "Bibliography" as "Further reading", although I did make a note that either can be used for a section name.
I removed a lot of the "External links" material because there are too many differing opinions on syntax to include on a general guide like this. Relevant pages and discussions are referenced, however. Additionally, as the Citing sources page mentions, any rule applying to "References" also generally applies to "External links," "Notes," and "Further reading." For this reason, I added something like, "This section follows the same formatting rules as the 'References' section" to each one. --J. J. 20:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Looks really good :) -Quiddity 17:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elaborating on "See also" entries

Should "See also" entries just include a link, or would they benefit from some text explaining how they relate to the article at hand? Many "see alsos" leave me perplexed until I actually bother to read the articles. --Smack (talk) 15:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Curiosity killed the cat, satisfaction brought it back ;) -Quiddity 18:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
And what does the cat symbolize?
Granted, it's not bad to be perplexed once in a while. The more problematic case is when the name of a "See also" link does not explain how it relates to the article at hand. --Smack (talk) 21:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notes should go at the very end

I suggest that the endnotes, NOTES, should go at the very end. They are not meant for ordinary reading and should not go ahead of items (like References and External links). Rjensen 08:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

There is complete disagreement one this particular topic anyway. some users will prefer notes to go before references, other prefer it theother way around. Circeus 13:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I prefer Notes to come before References (it follows a common practice of printed articles).
Even if I didn't, it's been implemented on many pages and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
--SteveMcCluskey 20:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Whatever the note/references order ends up being in any given article, I usually don't care. Caring would be pure pedantry. I have switched back and forth in opinion several time since I started dabbling in these sections.
At the very least, there is no reason for notes to go after "see also", a change that was made without consensus and that I reverted (though I don't think your comment is related to that). Circeus 21:15, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
The notes are not designed to be read as a group, so they should not block or interfere with other items that are supposed to be read. Put the end notes at the end -- solves the problem. (People who do like to browse the notes can immediately find them). The problem is that it is very confusing for people looking for bibliography to have these footnotes coming first. Rjensen 21:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
The guideline is clear that due to lack of consensus, there will be no statement as to which of "notes" or "references" should come first, and has always been. Nothing keeps you from placing notes after references (although I would argue that the references are not "designed to be read as a group" either, but I digress).
As far as I can tell, the only reason ntoes are after references in this guideline is that tehre need to bean example of some sort. And besides, if they were ordered otherwise, somebody else would still be complaining on this talk about the order. In any case, unilaterally altering the guideline to put "notes" after "see also" is a clear breach of Wikipedia:Consensus. Circeus 21:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
It's good there is some flexibility. Users want bibliographies they can print out and use to find articles & books in their library or online, so I suggest the main books and articles should all be together in an accessible place (outside the Notes section). Rjensen 21:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not to group references outside the Notes section is, again, far outside the scope of this guideline. As far as wikipedia is concerned, what is needed is citation. Although ideally, we want them to be consistently presented (hence why we have citation templates), their exact location will probably forever remain a subject of contentious between users. Circeus 22:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

WP:CITE#"Notes" section states:

Technically, footnotes appear at the bottom of a page; endnotes appear at the end of a chapter or book. Since Wikipedia articles may be considered to consist of one long page, or of no pages at all, Wikipedia footnotes appear at the end of an article, but are nevertheless called footnotes.

This guideline should follow the advice given in the citation guideline as that guidline is more specific than this one on this issue. --Philip Baird Shearer 22:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

"End of article" is not the same as "end of page" Also, potentially placing entire sections between notes and references is piss-poor usability. Of all recently featured article, none (or at least very few,I stopped at Torchic) appear to follow the convention that you require. Cnsensus is clearly against putting other sections between "notes" and "references". Circeus 22:56, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I will conceded Battle of Midway as the single exception amongst 33 articles that are supposed to be the best of Wikipedia. And the numerous ones that do not have "See also" or "external links" obviously do not count. They are not even all consistent as for the exact location of "see also" (before or after notes and references), but only one places "external links" between notes and refs, and even then, that's only because "external links" is a subsection to "Sources and further reading" (and rankly, I find that organization terribly awkward.) Circeus 23:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

You keep stating a consensus, but clearly other people agree with me, so where is your consensus? Do you think it a good idea that different guidelines are not in harmony with each other? --Philip Baird Shearer 23:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I see no consensus either way; hence the disclaimer that either ordering is valid. WP:CITE is not a layout guide, in any cas, and the use of "end of article" there shouldn't be treated as an exact location.
Regardless of the relative order of "Notes" and "References", though, the "External links" section should be kept at the very bottom, since it's hardly an integral part of the article itself. Kirill Lokshin 23:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
It is the third time I state it: there is no consensus as to which of references or notes ought to come firs. However, your moving of "notes" below external "links" clearly goes against consensus. These are two completely separate issues and I don,t see where there is disparity between policies. Circeus 23:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
External references belong at the very end. I prefer (foot)notes before the references/bibliography, as they would be in a book.
--William Allen Simpson 06:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no agreement that extenal links should be called external links. What is your position if the extenal links and further reading are combined? --Philip Baird Shearer 08:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I guess there must be *some* consensus, since external links are already called so in this november 2003 version of the page. It has been consistently called so for 2 years. How can that be "no agreement"? THe guideline is self-contradicting in list web links as an element of "further reading":
web pages, et cetera that you recommend as further reading, useful background, or sources of further information to readers.
and just after, write, under "external links"
any web sites that you have used or recommend for readers of the article.
That should probably be clarified. Especially as Wikipedia:Citing sources#Further reading/external links adds more confusion. Circeus 13:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
It remains the same, quite frankly. Footnotes are a critical part of the article, since they form the underpinning of the entire idea of citing sources. "Further reading"/"External links" is just a bonus listing of materials; but even if that section were entirely removed, the quality of the article would not be degraded, which is not the case for either "References" or "Notes". Kirill Lokshin 14:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Circeus you might find this archived conversation and straw poll (from November 2005) interesting; Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/archive2#References title misread as non-web External links --Philip Baird Shearer 17:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure where you want to go with this, so I will make myself clear, while discussion of the nature of what should be inluded in the sections is healthy (and appears to be what our current discussion is moving toward), I will continue to revert your moving of "notes" below "external links". I will also add that the above discussion did not create any consensus for changing the MoS pages. Circeus 22:46, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It was just to show you that a number of editors agreed to the idea that the distinction between external links and further reading should be removed (and for that matter that References should be changed to Sources) -- also you might like to note that I voted against the idea in that poll, However I do agree that the arguments for combining further reading and external sources has grown as more and more articles get footnotes and the habit of expanding external links to include author source and date has become more common.

BTW Circeus stating I will continue to revert your moving of "notes" below "external links" is IMHO not constructive with helping to build a consensus as it puts down a marker that you will be confrontational. --Philip Baird Shearer 10:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I find your moving of Notes without consensus to be confrontational.
As to "References", they should NOT be called "Sources", and any links would be to ISBN or an on-line copy of the actual research book or paper that was cited in the Notes above. Many Notes => one Reference.
As to "Further reading", those would be material NOT cited in the article, but related information.
As to "External links", they should have only external links, nothing else, and generally to information already in the previous Reference sections, or to related publications. For example, the hp-lexicon for Harry Potter articles.
--William Allen Simpson 03:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Philip, I felt compelled to make that comment because you appeared to make it seems as if two different issues were one and the same so your opinion on the location of the "notes" would be justified. With this comment I clearly marked where one issues ended and another began, and why I might continue reverting some of your edits. Circeus 04:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

"Notes" allows for both footnotes and citations, while "References" connotes just that - citations and nothing but. For ease of reading, writing, and manipulating, esp with the 'ref' system, "Notes" is convenient and meets the needs. In terms of sequence, 'See Also' should be first, as it is still learning about the matter at hand. then Notes/Further Reading/External Links in that order because it takes us further and further from the subject at hand, though I'm not "totally" obsessed with that last 3 sequence - there may be some sense in the "Notes" being last, I just don't think it looks as good. Bridesmill 21:48, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Further Reading/Bibliography

I think that we should change the use of Bibliography sections to be called "Further Reading" sections. "Bibliography" can imply works that were used in preparing an article, as in this dictionary definition: Bibliography – A list of writings used or considered by an author in preparing a particular work. In fact, this section on Wikipedia is specifically supposed to be works that were not used as references. Further, Bibliography limits itself to only books, but Further Reading can involve web sites, newspaper, magazines, etc. as well as books. —Mets501 (talk) 23:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I Agree completely. -Quiddity 00:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Most of the uses I've seen of "bibliography" were for books written by the article's subject. I certainly wouldn't mind seing "further reading" the actual recommended form. Circeus 00:15, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
See for example the end of history of mathematics. There is a section for references and a "bibliography" section, which I took to mean the same thing and combined, before reading the rest of this guide to layout. —Mets501 (talk) 13:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Bibliography is what most users want. They can print it our and use as a checklist against their local library, for example. Therefore it is necessary to include all books users should know about. This will mean duplication with the Notes, but that will help, not harm users. Rjensen 04:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I like the idea of "Bibliography" being in the body as a listing of the subject's works. I can live with "Further Reading" as the better name for the end section; the implication should be that a decent writer would likely have perused the listed works or used them passim, and should be able to defend the choice of "Further Reading" books. If a user wants a library listing, then if 'Notes' and 'Further Reading' are listed in sequence (as per suggestion above) then they just print off the 2 sections; with the benefit then of also knowing which were the cited works & which pages were cited etc.Bridesmill 21:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I've always invisioned "Further Reading" as being those references which a reader who is interested in the subject would find helpful. Hence it may contain some overlap with "References", but may also contain works not sourced in the main article.ShaiM 17:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:LAYOUT shortcut?

Adding the shortcut "WP:LAYOUT" for this page seems intuitive and appropriate IMO. Objections? -- intgr 11:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's good. I'll add that. —Mets501 (talk) 13:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leading with links

In a fairly large number of articles, now I've begun to see a move toward the sort of intro that is embodied in this example from the guideline:

In [[quantum physics]], the '''Heisenberg uncertainty principle'''

The problem is that this sort of lead-in often ends up preventing the reader from quickly scanning the intro to determine that the article is, in fact, what they were looking for. A couple of real-world examples:

In mathematics, especially in set theory, the terms, subset, superset and proper (or strict) subset or superset are used to describe the relation, called inclusion, of one set being contained inside another set.
-subset

and

In the World of Greyhawk campaign setting for the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game, the Amedio Jungle is a large stretch of tropical rainforest located in the southwestern Flanaess, on the continent of Oerik.
-Amedio Jungle

As you can see, in both examples there's already a fair amount of complexity, and injecting links in the intro, before the subject, just adds to the cognitive load that the article imposes on the casual reader. If the reader has clicked on "random article", then this is probably not a big deal (perhaps even helpful), but if the reader has come upon an article with a general understanding of the subject area (this seems to me like it must be the most common situation), then this cognitive load comes with no benefit.

I can appreciate that there are times when the text would be "clunky" without leading with the topical links, but would it be possible to at least indicate that this style is deprecated, and should only be used when no other wording is clear enough? -Harmil 20:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

How about "try to keep the number of links preceding the article name to a minimum". For example, I rewrote the Amedio intro:
The Amedio Jungle is a fictional jungle in the World of Greyhawk campaign setting for the Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game. It is a large stretch of tropical rainforest located in the southwestern Flanaess, on the continent of Oerik.
What do you think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Circeus (talk • contribs) 22:03, 26 July 2006.
Well, I think that's a fine re-write, but your suggested wording seems to push the idea of a "minimum" (10 ok?) of links as a good idea. I'd feel a lot better if we discouraged the notion entirely except where it's really required. I can't think of an example right now, but I've worked on a few articles where a link really wanted to go first, just for clarity of wording. Still, I think we should make the point clearly that that is, by far, the exception, not the rule. The way the guide is worded now, it sounds like either will do just fine in all cases. At least in my experience, this is not the case. -Harmil 05:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{TOCleft}} vs {{TOCright}}

Is there a layout guideline regarding left vs right placement of a TOC? For articles with a longer TOC but without an infobox or image in the top right corner (e.g., Asian American), I think that {{TOCright}} looks better, since it places the article lead on the left rather than the TOC. Plus it avoids the expanse of whitespace to the right of a longer TOC when the TOC goes below the lead (e.g., Microsoft). Either way, I think a reader should see text at the top left corner, so I avoid {{TOCleft}}. Many of the featured articles feature images (e.g., Mosque, Flag of India) or infoboxes (e.g., Gray Wolf, Tamil people) simply avoid a TOC template. Of course, the TOC could be shortened, too. --ishu 05:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

This places the layout under the control of the page author rather than the skin the user applies. As such, I think it should be avoided except in cases where it is absolutely required. What's the compelling reason? If it's purely your own aesthetic, then just use a skin that modifies the placement the way you like. -Harmil 05:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Further reading/external links

Gimmetrow, this page has to be consistent with WP:CITE, which is the relevant guideline. The further reading/external links section are the same thing. It used to be called External links, and contained only links, but with the advent of the References section, which also contains external links, many editors switched to References (material on- and offline used as a source) and Further reading (relevant material on- and offline not used as a source). See WP:CITE. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a guide to layout. If any guide deals with section headings, it would seem to be this one. WP:CITE is about how to do citations, not how to layout an article. Gimmetrow 14:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
How can anyone take seriously a layout guide which does not even mention bibliographies? I have restored this text (made difficult because of your other edit) until you discuss your proposed changes. A concurrent note in talk is not discussion. Gimmetrow 01:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Note that the text does not require separate sections. Any editor who says otherwise is not reading the description of "Further reading", which clearly says it can include web pages. Therefore a separate "External links" section is merely an option. Since some editors do use separate sections, it should be mentioned in an article purporting to be "a summary of what some articles look like." Gimmetrow 01:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

See WP:CITE#Further reading/External links The wording from that section, or very similar, should be incorporated into this article.

An ==External links== or ==Further reading== section is placed near the end of an article and offers books, articles, and links to websites related to the topic that might be of interest to the reader. The section "Further reading" may include both online material and material not available online. If all recommended material is online, the section may be titled "External links". Some editors may include both headings in articles, listing only material not available online in the "Further reading" section.
All items used to verify information in the article must be listed in the "References" or "Notes" section, and are generally not included in "Further reading" or "External links". However, if an item used as a reference covers the topic beyond the scope of the article, and has significant usefulness beyond verification of the article, you may want to include it here as well. This also makes it easier for users to identify all the major recommended resources on a topic.

--Philip Baird Shearer 10:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Horizontal dividing line"

I find that the advices of section Wikipedia:Guide to layout#Horizontal dividing line must be deprecated. It is bad for wikilinking when different topics are written in the same page. Wikipedia is not paper. It is especially bad when one topic is very long and the second is one sentence at the very bottom of 4 screens of text. No one will ever find an alternate meaning. Wikipedia has mature disambiguation style. No reason to mix Orion (mythology) and Orion (constellation) into one page.

Also, after second reading I find the advice quite confusing. Mukadderat 19:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Navigation as a standard appendix

I believe that there is a minor problem with the navigational templates that appear at the end of an article. First of all, while a navigational template is supposed to be visually separable from the preceding text, I have found that that often isn't the case in practice; the navigational templates often appear to part of one of the other standard appendices, usually “External links” or “References”. Moreover, most edits to the navigational templates show up under those standard appendices in the page history because the editor almost invariably uses the section edit link. (Who wants to deal with more wikitext in the edit box than they have to?)

Additionally, some newbie editors (such as myself, long ago) want to put the navigational templates under “See also”, which would seem to be the natural location for a collection of wikilinks to related articles.

Therefore, I propose that there be a separate standard appendix, named “Navigation”, for navigational templates. This addresses the issues above. As a bonus, the categories and language links will also naturally fall under “Navigation” in the edit history, and categories will be visually part of the “Navigation” section.

I should note that this is not the first time I have made this proposal, but I have found that I haven't gotten a satisfactory amount of feedback, possibly because I have previously made this proposal on Wikipedia talk:Section, rather than here. I made a tentative version of this proposal in late January when a different solution to the navigational templates solution was shot down. This version received one response, essentially saying that I had not justified the proposal; added justifications met with no response. I made a more fully fleshed out version of this proposal in early March. No responses were immediately forthcoming. I decided to shelve the idea while I figured out how to get some better feedback.

And I now come back to try to get that feedback. If you think that my proposal is lame, please tell me why.

— DLJessup (talk) 01:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The navigation boxes also typically show up immediately after the last external link. When I started editing, I wanted to put a horizontal divider bar there, and I have seen many editors put blank lines to separate them. A section heading might work. Gimmetrow 16:03, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography as an alternate to References

I think of a "bibliography" as a list of works actually cited, rather than a list of "further reading". I've seen a number of articles that use the cite.php references for "short" citations rather than full bibliographic references, sometimes keeping these separate from text expansions which may be handled by the {{ref}}/{{note}} system. Thus some articles are written

  • Notes (containing only text comments)
  • References (containing short citations, like Smith, Smith's Book, p.123)
  • Bibliography (containing full reference: Smith, Bob. (1999). Smith's Book. Publisher.)
  • Further reading (containing works not cited, possibly including web links)

I'm not sure how to reword the descriptions to fit this idea. At the minimum, I would like to see the term "Bibliography" listed as an alternate name for the "References" section, rather than an alternate name for "Further reading". Gimmetrow 16:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

See #Further Reading/Bibliography a few threads up. Bibliography is more commonly used to refer to an author's works, similar to a discography or filmography, and that is one of the reasons why its use as an alternate to "Further reading" is deprecated. --Quiddity 18:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
That's interesting, because I would like "Bibliography" not to be an alternate name for "Further reading". Gimmetrow 18:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with my statement? The thread above is suggesting that "Bibliography" not be used as alternative for "Further reading" or "References", as it is already being used to refer to an author's published writings.
I think your suggestion that we use "Bibliography" as an additional citation section heading, is needlessly complicated (WP:CREEP), and also confusing considering its more common usage as a list of an author's works. --Quiddity 19:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Where does the section you cited mention anything about "References"? In fact, that section supports what I am saying, as it affirms quite clearly that a bibliography is a "list of writings used or considered by an author in preparing a particular work" rather than a list of writings that were not used. I am certain that style guides support calling a list of "Works cited" a "Bibliography". In fact, in my field this is by far the "more common usage"; it would be extremely rare for a list of an author's works to be titled "bibiography" - this would typically be "Works published" or just "Publications". In any event, is there anything objectionable about the four sections as given above? I fail to see how it is instruction creep to list an alternate name for a section that already exists in the GTL. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gimmetrow (talk • contribs) .

Well, that's the ambiguity of language then! Because I read that thread as an endorsement for the removal of "Bibliography" as a recommend heading for any 'citation'-like section; and hinting that it's use is preferred "as a listing of the subject's works." That's the sentiment I was agreeing to, anyway. Perhaps someone else can explain it from a better perspective than I. --Quiddity 00:42, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, Circeus said that "Most of the uses I've seen of "bibliography" were for books written by the article's subject" and Bridesmill opinioned that "I like the idea of "Bibliography" being in the body as a listing of the subject's works." The topic however was the inappropriateness of the heading "bibliography" for works not actually used to make the article, and should be interpreted in that context. I'm not saying that such a use for a bibliography section can't be done; that's not my issue.
The issue is that many articles (FAs even) have a section which lists all works cited with full citation information, but also have a previous "References" section containing notes and short citations. The section containing full citations is then called "Bibliography" or "Sources" or "Works cited". This use should be reflected in this GTL which professes to be "a summary of what some articles look like". Gimmetrow 01:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Further reading, comments?

While I realise that this is not generally done, is there any reason not to have, as an optional extra, in the "Further reading" section, some descriptions following each item. Eg. Book name + details - book of this that and the other This would make it easier for those viewing the list to identify which item would be most useful. ShaiM 17:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

short annotations of the books and articles are a very good idea--Encarta and Ency Britannica both do it. The editors have knowledge of the books that should be shared with users. (To actually get a book or article the user may have to go through inter-library loan, or purchase, and the annotations will help decide which ones to obtain. Rjensen 17:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General references

I have a bit of a problem with writing up a list of items in "References", ie. as opposed to using <ref>example</ref> throughout the article. The problem is that future editors don't know what that reference was used for, and so 1) don't know what still needs to be sourced, and 2) whether they can delete that reference item as no longer necessary. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ShaiM (talk • contribs) 17:46, 16 September 2006.

You can do both. Cite each source in a footnote using an abbreviated form.
Give the full source in the references. For example <ref>Michel & Herget, p. 191.</ref> refers to:
==References==
* Anthony N. Michel and Charles J. Herget, ''Applied Algebra and Functional Analysis'', Dover, 1993.
--Jtir 12:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
In principle, the wikimedia software could automatically generate links, in both directions, between footnotes and references.--Jtir 14:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of appendices

The Standard appendices section currently says It is okay to change the orders between item 3, 4, and 5... where 3-5 are "Further reading", "References", and "Notes". So "Further reading" may go either above or below the notes and references section(s).

However, "External links" are restricted to the very end of the article? Aren't "External links" basically the same thing as "Further reading" (just all the suggested reading is online)? Why should it be treated any differently? I support changing the statement to It is okay to change the orders between item 3, 4, 5, and 6...

I have also started a discussion at Talk:WP:CITE stating my support for the option of putting external links/further reading type sections above the references in some articles. Lyrl Talk Contribs 01:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The sequence shown has See also as the first appendix, but in some articles it makes sense to place it at the end immediately before full width templates which contain a group of article links which would otherwise appear in the See also section. What's wrong with it being at the end? Also, shouldn't "change the orders" read "change the sequence"? ...dave souza, talk 18:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Support - oops, this is not a vote, sorry ;)
Seriously, I saw in several articles that people are changing order of appendices, probably because they are following this page. It seems to me that this recommended order is an artifact from a previous time, before the Cite extension, when footnotes and references were hard to make and so they were few, so they weren't really stopping the access to Further reading or External links. Now, they are easy to make, and it is recommended that they are plenty of them - so they visually block the access to any sections that follow them.
So, I agree that the order should be changed, so that they are at the very bottom of the article. Nikola 09:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Footnotes and references may still be separate, most often there are both "inline" and "general" references. Sometimes, non-referencing footnotes are still created with the template system so they are separate from the references themselves (e.g. List of European Union member states by political system) or so that there are several sections of notes (e.g. List of UN peacekeeping missions). Circeus 13:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Of course, footnotes and references sections should be right next to each other, however the question is whether both should be above or below external links and further reading. Nikola 23:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I say only between references and notes the order is variable. God knows even I am not stable. But External links go last, no questions asked. personally, I'd put "further reading" after both "notes" and "references," because that puts the material used in building the article in a more prominent fashion, although I am personally not a big proponent of the "further reading," because I see too much actual references plopped there, much like people tend to plop web references under "external links," which drives me up the walls. You see good articles with a "further reading" section, but no references on a regular basis. Circeus 00:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
For me, references go last, no questions asked. Why should material used in building the article be more prominent than material recommended as further elaboration on the subject of the article?
As a compromise, if References section is short, it might go anywhere, but if it is long, it should go to the bottom. Nikola 07:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

As I understood it, See also was always the first appendix because Wikified content was preferable to off-Wiki content. Most articles are written that way, expressing preference for Wiki content over external information. Sandy (Talk) 21:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I certainly agree to that. Nikola 07:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


I just posted the identical question at WP:CITE, for identical reasons. Copy of post:

I'm thinking that external links at the end, has dated back to the days before cite.php. WP:LINK states that the "most common" way to place external links is "at the end of an article".

Some articles now have quite extensive references sections, and it often looks better to place these after the article proper (including external links) rather thasn above the "see also" or "external links" sections. Otherwise one potentially has the following article finish:

  • Article
  • See also
  • Long section of footnotes, comments and citations
  • External links (lost between footnotes and categories)
It seems better that with extensive referencing and citations coming to be the norm, then references should generally go at the end of the article proper, that is after the (usually shorter) sections for notes, links and the like. Would this be acceptable to others to change the MOS slightly to suggest cite.php and similar references should usually be placed after all other sections, or at least may be placed there if 'long'?

FT2 (Talk | email) 01:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This can't be right...

From "Further reading":

When there are more than five references about the article, you may want to include them here so that there is a complete bibliography for users in one place. This makes it easier for users to print out all the references at once. To maintain the integrity of the bibliography, make sure all major titles are there even if they are listed elsewhere. (emphasis added)

So if there are 80 refs and 5 other books the editors recommend as further reading, all 85 of them should be listed in one place? It seems to me this paragraph recommends either repetition of 80 sources or a mixed References/Bibliography system (which is instituted in a distinct minority of articles, even those that could really use it—see FA Hungarian Revolution of 1956). --zenohockey 22:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Or does that paragraph use "references" in another way? --zenohockey 22:01, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
While this section allows duplication of references, over at WP:CITE such duplication is prohibited #: "An ==External links== or ==Further reading== section is placed near the end of an article and offers... that might be of interest to the reader, but which have not been used as sources for the article."
I don't really have an opinion either way, but two policy pages should be consistent with each other. Which way should it be - duplication prohibited or allowed? Note: I've also asked this question on the WP:CITE talk page: Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#Duplication of refs in the "Further Reading" section? Lyrl Talk Contribs 00:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The "See Also: Wikilink Dump" format hides information from novice users

In the "See Also" section, user-friendly articles include links to both the wikilink dump and related articles, but less user-friendly articles only include a link to dump.

The practice of not including related links within the article hides information from novice users, who rely upon their browser's 'find' tool to locate specific information quickly. If a 'find' search fails to locate the keyword within the article, novice users are likely to assume that Wikipedia does not contain the information they seek. [This happened to me when I tried to find a list of Philippine holidays; I am sure that this situation has happened to others as well.]

Some articles are more useful than others because the "See Also" layout guidelines do not specify that the "See Also: wikilink dump" format can not be used to fulfill the requirements of the See Also section. 70.112.29.65 12:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

This proposal clarified here. 70.112.29.65 23:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

D'oh, missed this by months which is annoying as the see also sections are a real bugbear for me because they're horrendously non-user friendly. MLA 07:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image layout:proposal for the "Images" section

I am offering to expand the image section with material about how to you know, position images for best, and I'd like opinions:

When placing images, it is recommended to be watchful of not stacking too many of them within the lead, or within a single section to avoid moving the edit links in some browsers. Images should ideally be spread evenly within the article, and relevant to the sections they are located in. Images should have an explicative caption.
In general, it is considered poor layout practice to squeeze text between images on the let and right (this sometimes also causes images to overlap text due to interference from surrounding templates or tables), to place an image intended to illustrate a given section above the header for that section, or to cause a header to be moved by an image placed on the left.
If an article has many images, so much, in fact, that they lengthen the page beyond the length of the text itself, you can try to use a gallery, but the ideal solution might be to create a page or category combining all of them at Wikimedia Commons and use a relevant template ({{commons}}, {{commonscat}}, {{commons-inline}} or {{commonscat-inline}}) and link to it instead, so that further images are readily found and available when the article is expanded.

What do you think? All of these are practices I've been applying regularly at Wikipedia:Peer review, Featured article candidates, and on articles appearing on Did you know?, and I have yet (with a few exceptions) to encounter true opposition to them. Circeus 23:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

An excellent idea to discuss visual layout at this page! I think there might be a word on creating a satisfactory balance between left and right, siting images in proximity to corresponding text, varying image sizes depending on emphasis and content, avoiding "foto-strips" down the right-hand side-- a favorite mutilation-- and positioning the vanishing point within the page. All the worst Wikipedian character flaws seem to be elicited when the visually impaired browbeat the rest of us on such simple matters of basic visual coherence. --Wetman 03:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • a satisfactory balance between left and right
How about "Some user prefer images to be evenly spread between the left and right, but you should then mind even more the above comments about moving headers and placing text between images on each sides."
  • siting images in proximity to corresponding text
It's already saying "Images should ideally be spread within the article, and relevant to the section they are located in."
  • varying image sizes depending on emphasis and content
I don't know. I want to suggest that 250-280 is a maximum, as 300px is half the text space's width on a 800x600 screen... But a word about appropriate size is probably a good idea, also about not stacking images of completely different width. How would you go about that?
  • avoiding "foto-strips" down the right-hand side
I think that is covered by being "watchful of not stacking too many of them within the lead or a single section," maybe specifying "multiple images within a section should not spread over the next one in 1024x800 resolution"?
  • positioning the vanishing point within the page
What does that mean??
Circeus 20:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shouldn't "References" go before "Notes"?

Shouldn't the "References" section go before the "Notes" section? My logic is that some of the notes will be pages/sections taken from the references listed under the "references" section. Therefore, wouldn't it be best to place "references" before "notes" to describe the source of these notes first? I know it's nitpicking, but I'm wondering what everyone thinks. — Deckiller 11:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It's a complete free for all as far as article space is concerned. I don't think even the Featured Articles agree. And even myself I switch back and forth. There isn't even agreement on "proper" uses of references vs. notes vs templates content notes, which is part of the problem. That's why the guideline says "put them in whatever order, but keep 'notes' and 'references' together." Circeus 13:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I prefer the notes to be placed above the references because when the notes contain explicatory material, they act as a direct extension of the article information. And since the references don't have page numbers, they exist at a further remove from the text than notes which cite specific information to particular pages. For me, the material at the bottom of an article makes logical sense by moving further and further away from the specific until it ends up with external links. qp10qp 16:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Uma Thurman is a specimin of a Featured article that places References as a subsection below Notes to enforce the connection between those two groups of content. I cite this example not because it is authoritative but because it is interesting, and proof that an article can rise to Featured status using these methods. The Featured article The Turk also used an idiosyncratic grouping of both sections together and ran as a Featured article that way prior to the structural variation being noticed and reverted [1]. Buddhipriya 22:48, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Today's Featured article is Daniel_Webster#Bibliography which uses yet another variant format in which "Primary sources" are a subsection under "Bibliography". In monitoring the current Featured articles I am getting the impression that there is much more acceptable variation in structure for Featured articles than the guideline would imply. Buddhipriya 19:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See also

What's the story behind "The 'See also' section provides an additional list of internal links to other articles in the Wikipedia that are related to this one as a navigational aid, and it should ideally not repeat links already present in the article."? Why should the "see also" not repeat links? If they're the most relevant articles related to this one, it's very likely that they've already been linked once. Why should that preclude them from being included again? Stevage 14:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Alternate question, why should they be included again at the bottom of the article if they are already linked in the article? The idea is that articles should be linked in context, not just plopped into a link farm at the end of the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Why? Easy. Because not every reader reads the entire article from start to finish. Because they may reach the end of the article and still have questions. Because a "see also" section captures the most important links, the subjects that are "closest" to this one. "See also" is itself a context, and if kept manageable, not a "link farm". Stevage 01:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
By that logic (not every reader reads the entire article from start to finish) we should add every important link to See also --> See also farm. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what your "-->" means, but depending what you mean by "important", I may agree. The most important few links that are highly relevant to the article as a whole (as opposed to explaining some individual concept) should be listed. Regardless of whether or not they've already been linked in the article. How is that wrong? What's controversial about that? Stevage 12:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

If the See also section includes mostly repeated links, it functions as a set of navigation links. Given the location suggested for the see also, it's probably not intended to be a navigation section; navigation templates are usually put at the end of the article. If links are not repeated, the See also section functions more specifically as additional reading. Gimmetrow 14:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with this. Navigation templates do not belong in see also, they belong at the end of the articles. Now, a portal might be appropriate for see also. What do you think? IPSOS (talk) 14:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I'm not referring to actual templates in the See also section (is that done often?), but to links repeated from the article which function as navigation. I don't think I've seen these ideas connected before, and it might explain why older articles (before navigation templates were common) often have the see also at the end. If the see also section is not for navigation, then it has no reason to repeat links. A portal is unlikely to be repeated and is a local link, but it occasionally seems out of place there. I've seen portals placed in external links (along with sisterlinks, etc.) or in or above a lead infobox, too. At one time there was a proposal to have a "Navigation" section after external links - whatever happened to that? Gimmetrow 15:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Seeing this discussion in relation to navigation templates is very helpful in thinking this through. I have tended to think of both See also and External links as variants of "links", one being to internal content on Wikipedia, and the other being to external content. The style guide says that References and Notes must be together, but that the order of those two relative to See also is up to the user. Since the order does not seem to be mandatory I tend to prefer seeing See also next to External links at the very end, followed by whatever navigation templates and category lists may exist. Buddhipriya 21:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
While I've often thought/always read just the opposite; that Wikified content should always have priority over non-Wiki content, so See also is placed above the notes, refs, and external links. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Uma Thurman is a specimin of a Featured article that places See also before External links at the end. That article also uses the interesting variant structure of putting References as a subsection below Notes to enforce the connection between those two groups of content. I cite this example not because it is authoritative but because it is interesting, and proof that an article can rise to Featured status using these methods. Buddhipriya 22:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Avoid links in the summary

On 12th July 2006, this guideline was (changed) to additionally say (wrt Lead section):

Keep in mind that for many users this is all they will read, so the most important information should be included. Avoid links in the summary--users should be encouraged to read the summary, and the article, before jumping elsewhere. In addition the colored highlighting of the links may mislead some users into thinking these are especially important points.

I'm not convinced about the first point. The second point/instruction is completely at odds with other guidelines, current practice, and the whole way wiki articles work. Readers will continue with the article if it is well written, not based no the colour of words. The other changes made during that edit don't IMO help and may encourage the first paragraph to be too big if there are lots of "important points". In summary, I believe this edit should be undone. Thoughts? -- Colin°Talk 14:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Strange stuff, don't know where it came from, but it doesn't belong there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
It is totally, totally wrong and unacceptable to recommend that we somehow force our readers into reading the whole article rather than just the intro. The intro should be a complete and accurate summary of the entire article. Stevage 01:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Stevage (also Wikipedia:Avoid instruction creep)--Philip Baird Shearer 11:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mathematical formulae

I have suggested this elsewhere - and it is probably applicable in other cases.

I have occasionally come across mathematical formulae which show the formula and nothing more: for those of us who are not familiar with the field (which might include mathematicians in other areas for all one knows) a brief intro "This formula is used in context X to do/produce Y" would be useful. Jackiespeel 18:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, project mathematics is the place to bring examples. Rich Farmbrough, 17:53 24 March 2007 (GMT).

[edit] Introductory Material description

The introductory material in this example (the material that comes before the TOC) describes this page, but I'd like to know a little more about what should, and should not, go there (as opposed to the introduction section after the TOC). Are there any Wiki style instructions on this that I missed?

Along these lines, the comment at the top of this page said "the first section MUST have a section header" (and asks for that to happen), but this one does not. Can someone comment in-line about why that is? I am Way too much of a newbie to be bold and change this page...

--metaJohnG 21:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of subsections for "notes" and "works cited"

Today's featured article, The Turk used a format that I really liked:

References

  • Notes
  • Works cited

This is really clear to me and seems to address some of the confusion about what goes where. "Notes" are footnotes, and "works cited" are the ones in the footnotes. Since this made it into a Featured Article and the roof did not fall in, I guess it is ok to do it this way? I just tried it on an article and it got reverted, so I am trying to see if there are other opinions. Buddhipriya 03:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The naming conventions are already covered in WP:CITE. Specifically, notes go in "Notes" or "Footnotes" and a list of reference works goes in "References". There are over 1.75 million articles in Wikipedia. Do you propose to change them all? Yourself? IPSOS (talk) 04:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Gosh, I was just asking a question. Since the above format was in today's featured article, I am trying to understand what is required versus what is recommended. Buddhipriya 05:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Please refrain from making personal attacks in edit comments. Remember that there are no emotional cues on Wikipedia or any other internet text format. I'm just trying to get the point across that the ordering and naming conventions being used have been here for some time. Changing them should not be based on personal preference, but on a real and compelling need. I don't believe such a need exists. Please don't take this personally, as I see you are inclined to do... IPSOS (talk) 05:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Asking if someone might be cranky is a personal attack? Please, GROW UP! - 68.53.215.89 17:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See also and repetition of links in article

WP:LAYOUT says that See Also "should ideally not repeat links already present in the article", which is a suggestion that I find unhelpful because in a long article like Hinduism or Ganesha it is a service to the reader to have a quick summary of internal links at the bottom. Could some of you who are experienced with variations in See also formatting please take a look at those two articles and comment on this question about the guideline? Buddhipriya 17:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The reasoning behind the guideline is to avoid precisely the kind of See also link farms present in those articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
As suggested above, I think the reasoning behind the guideline is that the "See also" section is for specifically additional reading, not for general navigation to related articles. Navigation links can be handled by a navigation template, which would go at the bottom of the article. (Older articles, before navigation templates were common, often have the see also at the end.) Gimmetrow 19:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
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