Talk:Guantanamo suicide attempts

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[edit] Well done

As I expected, this issue has had a lot of work done. However it has not been linked to from the main page, even though I recommended that yesterday Nil Einne 13:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm please to see that it finally appears in the main page. Despite the fact it was obvious from the start that this would receive (and as has happened even during the World Cup) widespread international sustained attention and widespread international sustained media coverage and widespread sustained work on wikipedia, there was a refusal to feature it. This is even though the French Open victors was featured immedietly despite the fact they received far less attention, media coverage and work and similarly the Antikythera clock thing which I haven't even heard of outside of wikipedia was also featured... Nil Einne 14:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article not about individual prisoners

Which is why I removed Category:Guantanamo Bay detainees and Category:Extrajudicial prisoners of the United States, which are for biographical articles.--Pharos 04:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I think these two categories do need to be linked to this artical as this is an artical about the things in the category. This artical is about "Guantanamo Bay detainees" and "Extrajudicial prisoners of the United States" and categories are there to link together information.Hypnosadist 11:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hunger Strike dates

At the base of this article it mentions that a hunger strike commenced in the prison in August 2006 (which is clearly impossible.). I would correct this myself but I don't know the details. --Raphael 07:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page Move

Shouldn't this page be at Guantanamo Bay suicide attempts? Wouldn't that be more accurate and appropriate, particularly given the fact that Guantanamo is both a province and a city, in addition to being a camp? Batmanand | Talk 09:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Accurate? Probably. But then [[Guantanamo Bay detainment camps suicide attempts]] would be even more accurate. To be entirely accurate the name would have to be [[suicide attempts at the Guantanamo Bay detainment camps for suspects in the Global War on Terror]], because that would distinguish between these guys and the days when Guantanamo was used to detain tens of thousands of Cuban and Haitian boat people -- "illegal aliens" -- for years on end.
Appropriate? I don't think so. The colloquial term is not "Guantanamo Bay detainee" it is simply "Guantanamo detainee". Maybe [[Guantanamo detainee suicide attempts]] would distinguish between detainee suicide attempts, and attempts among the garrison, their families, and civilian employees.
FWIW, the Gulf Daily News, published in Bahrain, refers to them as [[Bay detainees]]. Maybe that is what they are called in Arabic. -- Geo Swan 11:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Here in the UK, in the media the camp is almost universally called Guantanamo Bay. If you go to Guantanamo, you get to a disambiguation page (admittedly, if you got to Guantanamo Bay you get to the geological feature). I just thought it sounded more sensible to say "Guantanamo Bay suicide attempts", but if this is not consensus that is fair enough. Batmanand | Talk 16:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's probably impossible to satisfy everyone's most common term here. We had a three-way split of the article a few months back -- the base, the bay, and the camp were all jumbled together at Guantanamo Bay, which obviously didn't work. The US term is strongly skewed toward just "Guantanamo". I argued for putting the base article at Guantanamo (and the city at Guantánamo) but consensus was for a dab page there. --Dhartung | Talk 15:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On quotation errors

In this Wikipedia article, Cully Stimson is quoted as saying: "It is unclear why the American authorities are continuing to pretend that all three men were "violent terrorists", since at least one of them had been determined not to pose any threat at all and was in fact due to be released, though the Americans had not bothered to tell him this."

This appears nowhere in the cited artile. Also, there is some obvious bias in this comment, through the use of words like "pretend" and the fact that the line appears to have been written by someone who is not American (through the use of the words "though the Americans..."). Comments like this SHOULD NOT appear in Wikipedia, as it is full of bias and speculation. The issue that the men may have been falsely detained is indeed relevant, but do not present it as fact in an encyclopedia context.

The worse part is that it is appended to the quote of the assistant to the Secretary of Defense. That's a HUGE mistake as it looks like this comment is coming from the government (unless one happens to notice it's written in 3rd person).

I will correct this while trying to respect the intent of the message. --SirLamer 15:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

While it's clear that addition was a POV comment by someone and rather badly inserted and you did the right thing in removing it, it seems rather unlikely anyone that read what was written could have thought it came from the assistant. Clearly he would not have said they were violent terrorists and then say it's unclear why Americans pretend they've violent terrorists. For that matter, the quotes had already ended. Unsourced POV? Yes. Poorly done? Yes. Likely to be attributed to Cully to anyone reading the article? No. Nil Einne 15:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BBC quote of Denbeaux -- not credible

I know that the BBC has reported a paraphrase of Denbeaux -- stating that the camp authorities didn't tell Utaybi that he had been recommended for transfer because they hadn't decided which country which country he was going to be sent to. I don't find this assertion to be credible:

  1. For Denbeaux to say this he would have had to have been speculating. It is extremely unlikely that the DoD would tell the a human rights lawyer why they weren't telling a detainee he was recommended for transfer.
  2. Other sources state that Utaybi wasn't going to be freed, he was going to be transferred to detention in another country. Well, which country could that be?
    1. The most likely country that Al Utaybi could be transferred to, which could be counted on to take over the responsibility for Al Utaybi's detention would be Saudi Arabia.
    2. Jamal Kiyemba, an Ugandan who had been a long-term British resident, was transferred to the UK, who promptly deported to Uganda. If Al Utaybi had been a long-term resident of another country maybe the USA could justify transferring him to that country. Well, what country could that have been? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Might Pakistan or Afghanistan take over the responsibility of continuing to detain Al Utaybi? Maybe.
    3. Could the USA transfer Al Utaybi to some other country than the country of his citizenship, or a country of which he had been a long term resident, and still count on them taking over the responsibility for his continued detention? No civilized nation, that respects the rule of law. Uzbekistan, where torture victims are boiled alive, might agree. But, now that the identities of the detaines are known, I don't believe that the USA can get away with sending the detainees to torture states.
  3. Knowing he had been recommended for transfer back to Saudi Arabia, for continued detention, rather than being a source of relief to Al Utaybi -- it could have been a source of further despair. Other Saudis reported being visited, at Guantanamo, by Saudi interrogators, who warned them that, when they were returned to Saudi custody, they could expect terrible torture.

I suspect that the author of the BBC article conflated quotes from two different people, and attributed them both to Denbeaux. -- Geo Swan 18:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The Guardian, quoting the BBC article asserts that one of the dead men was on of Denbeaux's clients. This is incorrect. Mark Denbeaux and his son Joshua represent Rafiq Bin Bashir Bin Jalud Al Hami and Mohammed Abdul Rahman. TD Blog Interview with Joshua Denbeaux April 5, 2006
-- Geo Swan 19:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ARTICLE SHOULD BE DELETED

or let's make an article on wikipedia on everyday news...you can't have it both ways. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.80.113.51 (talk • contribs). 17:56, 2006 June 14

in fact let's do away with the whole Current_events section, who needs to know any of that stuff ;-) --duncan 06:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Attempts?

Doesn't the word "attempt" carry connotations of an intent that failed? Since three detainees actually committed suicide, shouldn't the title be changed? 惑乱 分からん 15:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Could just be 'Guantanamo suicides', except it also covers suicide attempts. How about 'Guantanamo suicides and parasuicides', bit wordy though.--duncan 16:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I vote for 'Guantanamo suicides' with a section about the failed attemps and suicidewatch systems at gitmo to stop successful attempts (this makes parasuicides' a more POV claim in my opinion).Hypnosadist 11:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
"Guantanamo suicides and attempts"? 惑乱 分からん 12:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I like your suggestion, Hypnosadist (although I don't get how parasuicide = POV?) --duncan 06:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I was just going to suggest that but you beat me too it :-P As for parasuicides, maybe it's not POV but it should be avoided IMHO because it's not commonly used and will just cause confusion Nil Einne 16:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
When I started this article I picked Guantanamo suicide attempts over Guantanamo suicides for several reasons:
  1. We know that there have been many more suicide attempts than those acknowledged by the DoD. The press reports all agree that the DoD acknowledges 41 attempts. But differing accounts say that 23, 25, 29 detainees made those attempts. The DoD also told Joshua Colangelo-Bryan that his client Juma Al Dossary made 13 suicide attempts. One of Mishal Awad Sayaf Alhabri's suicide attempts left him with sufficient brain damage that his Administrative Review Board hearing says he will have to be kept in a care facility for the rest of his life. Although he can respond to simple commands. But, he continued to engage in "self-injurious behavior" -- ie, further suicide attempts. So, the arithmetic doesn't add up.
  2. These three men are described as the first deaths at Guantanamo. I am extremely skeptical. Sami Al Laithi had a guard jump on him and break his spine. The IRF routinely beats detainees so seriously they are left in comas, or catatonic. One beating was enough to leave Sean Baker with enough brain damage that he will be left with seizures for the rest of his life. Colangelo-Bryan said his client Al Dossary was moved to a cell-block where there was no one he could talk to, because all the other detainees there had been driven barking mad, and could merely scream incoherently at the top of their lungs, 24x7. There is more public scrutiny on the camp now. They couldn't get away with hushing up deaths now, while maybe they could have earlier. -- Geo Swan 18:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
What do you think of the above suggestion? Nil Einne 16:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Attempts?

I agree, the article title should be renamed or a seperate article should be created for the three suicides that haven taken place. It is misleading to label "attempts" when they have succeeded. - Sohailstyle 16:36, June 15, 2006 (UTC)

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