User talk:Green Giant/Archive 01

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Main talk page Jan 2006 Feb 2006 Mar 2006 Apr 2006 May-Sep 2006

Contents 1 Changed infobox 2 The infoboxes for French cities 3 Mumbai infobox 4 Paris Rescue 5 Hello 6 hello 7 Sections for Pakistan article 8 Paris Revert Bedlam Bis 9 Thank you 10 Pakistan 11 Paris Talk 12 Towns and Neiborhoods of Karachi 13 A Western Sahara-related vote 14 Your AfD Vote 15 Re: Category:Special forces of Pakistan 16 Pakistan Peer Review 17 Military of Pakistan 18 An Apology 19 Makran Coastal Highway 20 Airports of Pakistan and List of Pakistan Natural Disasters 21 You are Offensive and Short Sighted 22 Thank you 23 Khairpur State 24 From Mr. 'Simpson' of Khairpur.

[edit] Changed infobox

There's no point having an infobox if only one article uses it - each province plus Islamabad had their own infobox. So I've replaced the obsolete Template:Sind_infobox with a generic one for all provinces and territories. Green Giant 01:06, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I have made the Template:Sind infobox few months ago. Well, its good to have unique infobox for all provinces. I appreacite your efforts on desinging Template:Pakistan infobox.

User:M.Imran 11:45, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The infoboxes for French cities

The reason why there is not a single template for French cities so far is because at first I didn't envision to make such a large scale work, and I thought I was gonna work only on one or two cities. Now of course there are many large French cities who have these templates, and so I have been thinking of creating a single template for all large French cities, template that could be re-usable in several articles. Unfortunately, so far I haven't done it due to the constant hostility and reversions from ThePromenader, who irks at the very mention of the word metropolitan area.

To be very honest, so far I have only seen you supporting him without ever calling him into question, so I don't know if you can be a neutral voice on this. However, if you have a look at Lille or Strasbourg articles for instance, and you look at the infoboxes there with a neutral and non-prejudiced mind, you can only admit that we need to distinguish neatly between city information and metropolitan area information, to avoid mixing otherwise extremely confusing figures and data.

At first I had made infoboxes like the one for New York City, dealing only with city information, and with only a mention of the metro area population, but then it became rapidly clear that due to the very complex situation in most French large cities, with distinct city and metro area structures, it was better to spell out things clearly, even if it meant making the infoboxes longer. In a place like Lille for example, the mayor is not the same person as the president of the urban community, and the former has less power than the latter. City and metro area administrations in Lille are intertwinned, and population, land area, density figures are different. This is not a unique case.

So if ThePromenader stops his uncompromising attitude (maybe he'll listen to you... he never listens to me), then I'll make a single unified template for large French cities, instead of having a different template for each city.

By the way, I see you are interested in South Asian things. There is a big error at the Mumbai infobox. This message is already long enough, but I will explain it to you later if you are interested. Hardouin 02:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I have read the above and replaced the original city/metro infobox until a new one is made. I'm not quite sure if this was the proper conclusion to your conversation but this is what I did. I listen to reason - and consensus rules. THEPROMENADER 10:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Green Giant,

Would it be at all possible to get this infobox discussion out of the way as soon as we can? It is basically the only 'factually intricate' thing remaining to fix before we can get to the much more easier (and pleasant !) task of making the Paris article read better and look good for 'peer review' presentation. As it stands, I sense that Hardouin will take your last night's conversation as 'consensus' - I would like to make this very clear if we can. If you could, please have a look at my updated version on the template's own page - the metropolitan area info is there, as well as other additions, shortening it and giving everything its proper importance and place. For the time being I put it back to its old version until we can reach a concrete consensus on this. Not to pressure you ; ) Thank you, and good night.

THEPROMENADER 00:56, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mumbai infobox

About Mumbai infobox, the population figure, land area figure, and population density figure are for the metropolitan area, they are not for the municipality (city). A year ago I had proposed a more complete infobox, that included both city figures and metro area figures, to clearly disambiguate between both. You can see that infobox here. Figures in there are the correct ones. Unfortunately, user Nichap opposed this pretty much on the same ground as ThePromenader is opposing now, arguing that the infobox should only contain city information. So he deleted all metro area info.

End result: a few months later, some people replaced all city info with metro info (it seems they thought 11.9 million people was not high enough for Mumbai, so they replaced it with 18 million figure, which is the population of the whole metropolitan area), so now the table is screwed up, offering metro area figures and pretending they are city figures. That's why I came to the conclusion long ago that it is better, with most city infoboxes, to clearly and un-ambiguously include both city and metro area figures, so that it leaves no space for doubt, and in order to avoid misguided edits like what happened with Mumbai. Hardouin 03:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for saying that my idea for French city infoboxes is a good one. I wish ThePromenader were more reasonable. It's frustrating not to be able to argue things calmly and rationally with people. About Mumbai, you can use the infobox I proposed last year if you want. However, I let you do that. I don't want to upload the infobox in the Mumbai article myself, because Nichap would revert me right away. You'll probably have to talk with him. What I know for sure, is that if we leave the table as it is now, i.e. containing only city info, sooner or later someone will change the figures and replace them with metro area figures, because people simply can't believe that Mumbay (the municipality) has only 11.9 million people.

One last comment, the land area for Mumbai is not that small. After all it is more than 5 times larger than the city of Paris (excluding Bois de Boulogne and Bois de Vincennes). What's extraordinary is that they can pack 11.9 million people within that space. But then Mumbai has some of the highest densities in the world. I had started a list of the densest urban districts in the world a while ago, but then the task of referencing them all is so daunting that I never finished it. The list is still on my computer though. So far the densest district I have found is the Kwun Tong District of Hong Kong with 50,898 people per sq. km. in 2001. Some districts of Mumbai may beat that record. Hardouin 03:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paris Rescue

You stepped in just at the right time yesterday - thanks. I haven't had time to read your edits yet but will do so later today. There have been few developments since - I did eliminate Hardouin's (rather sneaky) efforts to re-insert some of his original text, but I removed most of this again (and in the first place) because it was unreferencable - there exist no 2005 AU predictions, not even on the INSEE site, and his 'AU double-growth' phrase is just plain wrong. IMHO these aren't there for the facts themselves but more for the 'metropolitan area' chip-chip - but only facts are contestable. Let's hope this blows over soon so we can get to beautifying - but it is important that all things fact stick first. Oh, and someone should explain to Hardouin the proper use of 'on the other hand' - I left it in this time.

Thanks, take care,

THEPROMENADER 09:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

hello how do you feel about making a series of pages for each of the subdivision (tehsil?) of punjab (pakistan) i tried to and i have quite a bit of information about them, but i have no clue how the info box thing works and i really want them, can you help? id like the infobox to be basically the same as you historical regeons of pakistan one, except less boxes i suppose, just ones on population, area, pop desnsity... how do you feel about that? start on Attock District and so we can both work on it(if templates are avaliable for me to use).

cheers

[edit] hello

still sleeping? well just start whenever your ready. if you want that is.

[edit] Sections for Pakistan article

Great job on the work you put in on those sections you completed for the Pakistan article. I started going through the climate section. I set it up how I think it looks best, but since this is a wiki and it will probably be edited, oh well. Anyways, I added in some pictures of the Indus and the Thar. There were a couple more I found, but I think more than two in this section will be more than neccessary. It would bog down the article if we just loaded it with pictures. Nonetheless, I commented out the additional pictures I found, feel free to put in the others ones if you want if you feel it looks better. Both pictures of the Indus River looked great, yet the dilemma lies in choosing one. The other picture of the Thar desert is a satelite picture, so its less practical than the picture I left up there. Any how, keep up the great work. Pepsidrinka 17:18, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I have finished copyediting, reviewing, and adding pictures to the Climate, Wildlife, and Holidays sections. If you feel they are up to the level, please add them where you feel they belong. Pepsidrinka 21:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the article is at 50KB. From my various reading around WP, FA should be about 30-50 KB in size. Most of the FA on countries are about 40 or less, except China which has grown massively within the past 7 months (grown 20KB, currently at 61). Cleaning through the history sections should cut at least 5 KB (hopefully), and then I suggest we have it peer edited in order to get some outside viewpoints on anything else to fit. Pepsidrinka 21:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello. Perhaps you can review my work on the entire history section located in my sandbox. Besides you, no one else has commented on my changes to the ancient history section. I have personally sent a message to Siddiqui and I posted on the Pakistan talk page, and he, nor anyone else, has yet to make any comment. It really seems you and I are on the only active editors on this page. Pepsidrinka 19:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paris Revert Bedlam Bis

Hello - are you around? I have again 'lost it' on the Paris page but I give up for now - things have gone much too far for tonight. Thirteen reverts (I think) and now there are again Île-de-France statistics masquerading as 'metropolitan area' ones, texts saying that tourism is not important for Paris - and this is what was reverted to. Both of our edits are gone in several places - but I can't exactly say what or where and I don't want to verify. The introduction I had cut down is now blown up again as an all-in-one-breath declaration insinuating the importance of Paris' metropolitan area. Could you just go and have a look at the facts of everything? It's all on the talk page. I thought we were almost there. Sorry for the mess.

THEPROMENADER 20:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

Dear Green Giant,

Walaikum Assalaam. Thank you for the link to the tutorial. I had read the other more detailed articles on editing and formatting, and struggled to remember all the information. Since printing out the tutorial you sent, I am having a happier time with articles!

I am grateful for the tip on using full names. Many Pakistanis use a shortened form of their full name, hence my hesitation. The clarity of Wikipedia is very welcome.

Nkosi Sikeleli Afrika!

Sincerely,

Zain

[edit] Pakistan

I have contributed to history section of Pakistan that have been removed by you. I think we should work together rather than play this game of reversions. I would appreciate that you do not revert my changes. I did not know you and your username Green Giant does not give indication of your nationality. I assumed that you were one of many who vandalize Islamic and Pakistani pages. So I am sorry if I reverted your changes. Please do not revert my changes to Pakistan page. Please discuss any objection that you may have. I am reverting back your reversions. Please indicate each and every line that you may find objectionable.

Siddiqui 01:29, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

You removed references used in the article without explaining why, especially since articles need citable references. The addition of a paragraph on Mehrgarh is not necessary because it should be a summary. Green Giant 01:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Mehrgarh is very important site since predates Indus Valley Civilisation by about 3000 years. Clearly showing continuity of urban human civilization in Pakistan from 8000 BCE to present.

Siddiqui 01:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Definitely Mehrgarh needs a mention but let the paragraph go into the History of Pakistan article. I'm still not happy with your removal of references, so I am reinserting them until you can explain why they are not needed. Note I am not changing your editions of the article. Green Giant 01:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, The India page does not even mention one word about treatment of it's monorities and especially Gujarat genocide of Muslims. Then why should Pakistan page has a link to a site that is extremely critical of Pakistan's minorities. Indian will never allow one word about Gujarat genocide in India page. Secondly, the Indian deny Aryan invasion theory to claim themselves as the natives of South Asia. Clearly there was Aryan migration and settlement in India from Eurasia. They use the phrase like "Islamic invadors invaded India" while "Aryan settled in India". The whole Hindutva ideology is based on denying Aryan invasion and demonizing Islamic settlement.

Siddiqui 01:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Not all refrences should be glossy and positive about the subject of the article. However, having looked at both of the references, I can see your point, so I am removing them both. Green Giant 02:13, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paris Talk

Green Giant,

I've decided to take advantage of (and maintain) the Paris page's 'blocked' status to discuss and decide what should (or shouldn't) be changed there. Some wisdom from you there would be very welcome. I will also be contacting others knowledgable to see if they can help too.

Thanks,

THEPROMENADER 11:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Towns and Neiborhoods of Karachi

I created pages for most of the towns and neigborhoods of Karachi and categorized them. I hope you will contine to expand them. Please do not remove my summarized information about the towns and neighborhoods on the top of each page. You can add more information after the summary. Now I have to review all the towns and neighborhood pages that I created so that they have the same format. If you have any question, concerns or comment please contact me.

Siddiqui 17:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

You did a great job in Gulshan Town. Can you please reorganise all Towns of Karachi in the same format.

Siddiqui 23:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Good Idea. You can organize all Karachi Towns and neighborhoods.

Siddiqui 13:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

In the the towns page I cannot go to different neighborhood pages as it links back to the town page. Where are all neighborhood pages ? I think we also had Gulistan-e-Johar neigborhood page. I cannot find it either.

Siddiqui 12:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Western Sahara-related vote

===>Here Make your voice heard. Vote or die. And all that. -Justin (koavf), talk 20:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your AfD Vote

At the demand of another Wikipedian, I have moved the three related articles in the Islamic athletics AfD to a different AfD page (since I added those three related articles after he/she voted). Since you voted Keep for the former and Delete for the latter in the Islamic athletics AfD, I'm asking that you move your votes to the proper locations or at least give me permission to do so. Either way, thanks for your input. joturner 04:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Category:Special forces of Pakistan

I created it because actually the SSG is a specops unit and not a branch of the Pakistani armed forces, note also that lots of special forces categories have only one article [1]. By the way, why do you want to move the page? --Nkcs 04:53, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pakistan Peer Review

I don't know if you are aware, but in the case you don't, the Pakistan article is under a peer review. Several comments have arised which might warrant your response, seeing how your probably more knowledgeable on the topic than I am. Pepsidrinka 22:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military of Pakistan

The Template:Military of Pakistan is a standard navigational template which is used for the militaries of other countries also- therefore it should not be deleted. Looking at the other template- I would say that it is really only relevant for the main Military of Pakistan article, and that perhaps more specific template should exist for the three branches. Astrotrain 18:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An Apology

I'm sorry. I'm computor illitterate and new to the internet. I was actually surprized to see changes actually occur after I dared to explore the 'edit' option. I then went on to experiment with what i could do with editing in a misguided effort to learn how to edit. It was when I clicked my user name that i learned that all required information was available aswell as your messages. I am truly sorry to have caused you anguish. I did expect, however naively, for my additions to be deleted and then to recieve an inquiry from you about my 'oppinion' at my e-mail address. I would have then informed you about my sources.

History is a very tricky thing indeed as the oppressor needs to hide and justify oppression. In many countries the publishing of books against orthodox oppinion are banned. while more often than not the oppressed party does not have the financial resourses to publish books etc. Therefore history that has been altered will remain so. At times very little and inaccurate (to say the least) information is available on certain regions, cultures, nations etc. the question is - is wikipedia going to basically assist and promulgate such ignorance?

Thankyou very much for your tips about how my article about my homeland should be written. I shall improve it whenever I'm free to do so.

Yours Sincerely

Arsalan R.Kazi

[edit] Makran Coastal Highway

I created Makran Coastal Highway and uploaded few photos. Later I found Coastal Highway (Pakistan) for the same subject. I would prefer to use its full name Makran Coastal Highway rather than just Coastal Highway. In any case I would like hear your comments.

Siddiqui 01:17, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Airports of Pakistan and List of Pakistan Natural Disasters

Can you please format these two pages.

Thanks Siddiqui 19:41, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Well the picture that you put there for Jinnah isnt very good quality. Its not even a picture. It looks more like a drawing. Please replace it with one that is more realistic than iconic. Jinnah was a real person, and his picture should depict that.

I understand your logic and it makes sense, but as far as identification goes, currently Pakistanis can identify with either picture of Jinnah because both are prevalent. I will be replacing it with some other picture of Jinnah from his campaigning era soon. Also, I do not understand the four tildes thing you were talking about. Where should I leave the four tildes? in the description of changes made dialogue?

[edit] You are Offensive and Short Sighted

Dear Green Giant, Good Day.

Though I do not know how "Giant" you are, but I usually do not like to TALK NONESENSE nor I like someone else to do so with me.

The Sindhi pages at Wiki projects really have problem. These days I am trying my best to gather some help from other Sindhis and attract people to develop Sindhi pages. The Sindhi page of Wikipedia was lying UNATTENDED and DESERTED for a long time. No one had visited the Sindhi page with just one or two articles in Devenagri that were totally un-understandable. Those are still there. But I made a new MAIN PAGE in Sindhi Arabic Script. If you bothered to have a look at Sindhi Wikipedia, then you must also have taken some of your precious time to see its history as well. It is me who has sacrificed the time and effort to make the MAIN PAGE and some more articles in Sindhi. Although, every thing there needs time, dedication and effort, much more than I, for one, can contribute.

Same is the case with Sindhi page at Wiktionary. I also need to find some time to change and update its php files as well, so that people can at least FIND Sindhi pages. Presently, the name of the language appears everywhere in Devenagri, which is un-understabdable to 99.99% of Sindhi population. This is the main reason of why Sindhi people have not been attarcted towards the Wiki projects. These remain simply INVISIBLE to everyone.

It is true that the Govt. of India had approved a Sindhi Devenagri Script in India after 1948, but it was rejected by the Sindhi Hindus of India, and never received the acceptance among them. It is true that Sindhi language can be written in the Devenagri Script, but as a matter of fact, there is a negligeable number of people who can really read and write that.

Showing LINK FOR Sindhi pages everywhere ONLY IN DEVENAGRI is totally UNJUSTIFIED. The language remains of course associated with its land, the SINDH, where it is recognised as official language only in ARABIC Script.

About Mr. Siddiqui... Wikipedia is a Multilingual encyclopedia in every language. In fact, even the ENGLISH Wikipedia is supposed to be enriched with the names of places and various other terms from all other languages; with, of course, an explanation in ENGLISH. I wanted to write the names of the places in Sindhi script, and later, add a link to the Sindhi Wikipedia, as the Inter-language co-ordination is ENCOURAGED at Wikis. But those names, written in Sindhi Script, were removed by the user Siddiqui, without any DISCUSSION or Warning. IT WAS SIMPLE VANDALISM. I asked him several times for not doing so. But every time, he removed those. It is natural to find the WAY THE NAME OF PLACE AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE NATIVE OR THE LOCAL LANGUAGE OF THE PLACE. And it is always usefull to have a link to the relevant LANGUAGE PAGE AS WELL. But the user Siddiqui, resorting to Vandalsim, acted unwarrantedly.

Do you find any reason of telling how TOKYO is written in URDU on the TOKYO PAGE right in the MAIN TEXT? Similarly, there is no reason of writing name of every Sindh's city and place in Urdu. And it is highly VANDAL to remove names written in Sindhi.

I belong to Sindh and am Sindhi. I have every right to CONTRIBUTE and ADD THE TRUTH. In the HISTORY SECTION of the cities of Sindh, the original names were COMPLETELY TRANSLATED IN URDU. The Sindhi Term "CHAR YAR" was reported as being URDU WORDS; yet these explained the Sindh's king and his three friends. The names of many places were not just DISTORTED in their PRONUNCIATION, but were copmletely TRANSLATED in URDU. And when I JUST added or at some places corrected the names, those were simply removed by Mr. POLITE SIDDIQUI unwarrantedly without bothering to DISCUSS. He even removed, for many times, the names of Sindhi TV channels from the page of Karachi, sub section ECONOMY, leaving the names of Urdu Channels only. All this showed his BIAS and UNSPOKEN HATTERED for Sindh and Sindhi language, being an Indian immigrant. One more thing, the WORD MOHAJIR mentioned every now and there in the Wikis is not JUSTIFIED. This is the word used for Prophet Muhammad (Peace be Uppon Him) and his followers who migrated from MAKKAH to MADINA. The actual word is simply REFUGEES, and in local language, PANNAHGIR and in Urdu, PANNAHGUZEER, as they were reffered to as by the famous URDU daily JANG (at the time of partition of India). The JANG was itself editted by Urdu Speaking Indian Immigrants. The word Mohajir is neither nationality nor an official declaration for Indian Immigrants into Pakistan.

AND FINALLY YOU ............... Don't be too smart. And do not send your OFFENSIVE MESSAGES again and again. And do not get worried about how my talk page looks like. Do not cross limits. Behave decently. Do not press me report VANDALISM on your part. Aursani 21:56, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

Thank you for offering me help. Although I am very busy with my PhD work, I always find some time for Sindhi Wikipedia due to my enormous affection with my land and the language. I shall appreciate if siddiqui and all others DISCUSS before removing anything. I shall surely ask for help as and when I needed. Thanks once again. Aursani 22:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Khairpur State

The Khairpur state page has served its purpose. it has gotten your attention. you are free to use what ever materials you need and should you need information about the sources of history, I shall provide that as soon as I can. I hope the green in your name does not represent the green in the Pakistan flag. If so, then truth is damned.Arsalanrkazi

[edit] From Mr. 'Simpson' of Khairpur.

Well thank God! I did not Know How to edit the NGO site under construction. But I managed to learn how to edit Wikipedia simply through experimentation. It was what I put here that the site builders copied on to that other NGO site under contruction. Hence the Sabre-Rattling.;)