Talk:Green Bay Packers

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[edit] Comment from 6/9/2004

I'm not sure i agree with this: "The Packers are now the only publicly owned company with shares to buy and sell and a board of directors in professional sports."

What about the Boston Celtics, Florida Panthers, and Cleveland Indians? I thought these are all or were publicly traded.

The Boston Celtics are owned by Wycliffe Grousbeck. The Florida Panthers are owned by Alan Cohen. The Cleveland Indians are owned by Larry Dolan. While some teams have been publicly owned in the past, the Packers are the only major professional sports team that is now publicly owned. - Sperril 08:11, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
And Manchester United. DJ Clayworth 15:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Manchester United is owned by Malcolm Glazer. He also owns the NFL's Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Sperril 05:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
We should make clear what exactly "publicly owned" means. Any company trading on the stock exchange could be considered publicly owned, as opposed to a private company or partnership. - Matthew238 06:48, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
You get no argument from me on that point. Sperril 05:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

There is often confusion in the media on this point. "Publicy owned" is true enough in that stock was put up for general sale. But it is not traded, so the term "public" in that sense is not right. "Non-profit corporation with stock that can't be sold" is correct. "Community owned" is correct but somewhat misleading in that many feel a municipality owns the team. The heart of the story is that regular people in the area rescued the franchise several times over the years, purely to keep football in the area. Any idea of profit was kept out. The League under Commissioner Bell at first, recognized this and supported the franchise. The sharing of revenue in more recent times continued this favorable treatment of the NFL toward this franchise. Many say because of the tradition behind the team and the small town it is in, that the continuation of the franchise pays tribute to the origins of the League. The Bears also represent this tradition, but the Packers are small town, non-profit. They did not have a huge city like Chicago to draw from. This story goes on with all the details of the statewide campaign to support the stadium renovations, to build up financial reserves to preserve the franchise. It was a close call. How much of this should go into the article takes more judgment than I have. I am very impressed with the comments here and the care people take on this site. Ggetzin 13:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

re: wearing cheeseheads "something Packer fans do to satire the "cheesehead" designation put on them by others." I'm not sure I agree with this. What is your basis for saying so? I've been a lifetime Packer fan and never heard that we started wearing cheeseheads as an expression of satire. --michael t zimmer 02:11, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

To some extent it's like "reclaiming" an insult or a slur (though to a lesser degree than, for example, a racial slur). As a Wisconsin native, I didn't really embrace the "cheesehead" nickname until I moved out of state. I think the way the article itself is currently phrased is fine. --gohlkus 22:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

How do I get my hands on some Packers stock or get on the season ticket waiting list? --Derrickbecker74 21:48, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

Well, to get stock, I think you would have to wait until the next auction of stock(but they don't plan these every year the last one was in 1998), so it could be hard to get your hands on it.--Dp462090 04:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cannot sell shares

The Packers are publicly owned, but not publicly traded. When the stocks are issued, they may be purchased, but cannot be re-sold.

I believe there is some sort of rule that no one individual can own more than 10%, insuring that the people of Green Bay own the Packers.
Shareholder information can be found here http://www.packers.com/community/shareholders/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.57.122.48 (talk) 02:41, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Improvement drive

National Football League is currently a candidate on WP:IDRIVE. Vote for it if you are interested in contributing.--Fenice 20:03, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why buy shares?

Why would someone buy shares in something if you get neither dividends or an increase in share price. Is the only benefit of owning shares the ability to vote for the teams leadership? - Matthew238 06:48, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps they wanted to help contribute to the team financially; perhaps pride; perhaps bragging rights among one's peers; many reasons... mtz206 15:29, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I can only speak for my own personal experience, but that's a pretty good summary. --Chancemichaels 13:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels
What about Packer Pride? --Sk8ski 13:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
That's first on mtz206's list. --Chancemichaels 17:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels
Owning shares is mainly an issue of pride and contribution to the team. It is true shareholders can take action to direct the team, like any corporation. Besides voting for the Board there is the possibility of moving for bylaws. There was a movement to save the stadium in the late 90's when the Board was contemplating destroying it. At least one shareholder threatened to take action. Lambeau Field was restored and saved. The stockholders probably could force sale of the team but this will never happen. If it did the proceeds would all go to charity. Most fans feel as if they are shareholders in spirit, which they are. It is truly a community owned team. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ggetzin (talk • contribs).
I'm not aware of any desire to "destroy" the stadium, or that it was "saved" by shareholder action. They needed to raise money for renovations, and issued more shares to accomplish that. --MichaelZimmer (talk) 00:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

There definitely were plans in the late 90's by the administration to tear down the old stadium and build a new one on the same site. At first the Packer head office claimed the structure would not hold the planned expansion. I suspect there was an uproar from the fans that stopped the initial plans.

Ggetzin 02:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding plans of a completely new stadium see the Green Bay Press Gazette, Birth of new Lambeau, April 2, 1999. These were Village proposals but also the team's choice at the time. Ggetzin 19:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Season results incorrect?

The season by season results section does not match that at packers.com for several years. (See 1921 & 1922 as an example. Packers.com has 1921 at 3-2-2 and 1922 at 5-3-3, where this article currently has 3-2-1 and 4-3-3 respectively)

Does anyone know of a reason for this discrepency? Is there a reason why these numbers here don't agree with packers.com? If there doesn't seem to be a reason, I'll go ahead and make them agree with packers.com. --Garihood Mar. 13, 2006

  • NFL.com lists the Packers record for 1921 at 3-2-1 [1] and 4-3-3 in 1921 [2], so that is probably the reference that was used. Of course, the 1920s was still a period when professional football was rather unstable and thus the Packers probably played opponents outside of the league. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 16:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Looks my assumption was correct when I took a look at the records on Packers.com. According to the site's database, the Packers played a 1921 game versus the Racine Legion, who during that year was not part of the NFL. So that is probably why the Packers count that game but the NFL does not. Therefore, if you are going to make the numbers on the Wikipedia article agree with the data on Packers.com, you will have to mark it with asterisks and footnotes, or else another user is going to change the data back to the official NFL numbers. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 16:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I've updated the page, but the end result looks awfully busy. Is there's a preferred way of formatting this? --Garihood Mar. 14, 2006

  • Yes. For official NFL playoff games, it seems more users are doing something like on the Steelers and Seahawks: List only the regular season records in the W-L-T columns, and then list the result of every playoff game in the "Playoffs" column. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 16:50, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Looks much better as you have modified it. --Garihood Mar. 13, 2006

The Season-by-Season should be on the main page, rather than in a separate page, to keep with the standard format for NFL pages set up by the WikiProject. The template is that of the Pats, which keeps the SBS on the main page. I'm going to add the table to the main page in keeping with that policy, but further comments would be appreciated. Kermitmorningstar 01:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the Bears article has season-by-season on another page and that article is a featured article...having the season-by-season for storied and historically old team like the Packers would make the article have one big table in the middle of the article discouraging readers by the large break so please don't add it. --Happyman22 01:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
It's really long, I don't think it should be in the main article. The Packers have many more years than the Patriots and it should merit its own article. Shouldn't this be discussed before you make the article longer than the suggested limit? How about cleaning up the history section first, and summarizing it and add to the History of the Green Bay Packers so there's possibly room for the long table?++aviper2k7++ 01:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article/players lists too long

I think this article is too long and needs to be split up - these various player lists are much too long and burden the article. Perhaps have a link from the main GBP article to "Current GBP roster" and "Notable GBP players," which would include the Hall of Famers, retired numbers, etc. Further, I question the very existence of the "Not to be forgotten" section. Unless there is something particularly noteworthy about these players' contributions to the team, it seems like nothing more than a repository of players who fans' happened to like/remember. --mtz206 13:30, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

  • I don't have anything insightful to say other than I agree. The page is way too long. Kevin82485 (Talk) March 29,2006

[edit] Schedule

I'm not very good with html...so I was wondering if some who knows more than me would be interested in creating a schedule to put on the Packers wiki web page for the 2006 season. Their preason schedule was recently released and I think it would be informative to put things like a schedule on their wiki page. Kevin82485 (Talk) March 29,2006

As long as nobody does what was discussed on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2005 New England Patriots Schedule: Somebody devoted an entire article to just the Patriots' 2005 16-game regular season schedule. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 01:21, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
You should also be prepared that other users might remove such a schedule on this article under Wikipedia is not a general knowledge base. If you ever read Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Sports results, you would know that there is still a continued controversy among editors as to whether reports of non-championship sporting event results should be the subject of Wikipedia articles. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 01:21, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time Warner

Where it says that the Atlanta Falcons are owned by Time Warner, I don't believe that is correct. I was under the impression that the owner was only in negotiations with Time Warner. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.186.25.137 (talk • contribs) .

  • The article currently says that the Braves are owned by Time Warner, which is correct; Time Warner has owned the Braves baseball team since the 1970s. The Falcons are currently owned by Arthur Blank. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 00:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Still Missing

I feel there is not enough information here about the lean years between the Lombardi championships and the Brett Favre era. I will add a few sentences, and do some editing.

Andrew Szanton, 4/06

[edit] Failed GA

This article failed the ga noms due to lack of references. Tarret 13:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure what the standards are. Some references seem a little loose, like the nicknames. There is discussion of names that were used by fans, players and press in the 20's other than Packers, but there probably was never any official name other than Packers. Probably by the forties at the latest, the name was cemented, more likely in the early thirties. There are books on the Packers and a team historian to document this. Ggetzin 02:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed useless disambig

I removed the following from the top of the article:

Note: Basketball teams from Chicago and Anderson once used the name Packers as well.

There is no need for that notice at the top. Neither of those two teams is connected to the Green Bay Packers in any way (indeed they didn't even play the same sport, let alone in the same league), and there is no reason to expect that anybody looking for the Chicago Packers or the Anderson Packers would type in or look under the phrase "Green Bay Packers". The fact that they used the same team nickname is not a commonality that demands disambiguation, unless you think that Chicago Bears, Los Angeles Kings, and Detroit Lions should also list any and all other well known sports teams that shared their nickname at the top.

This seems pretty straightforward and obvious to me but I figured I'd put a note up on the talk page since that line looks like it was at the top of the article for a long time. — GT 22:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

  • However, the Packers page is currently a redirect to here. Therefore I have to restore and clarify the dab msg. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 22:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    • That makes more sense. I personally hate those sorts of messages as they call attention from the article even if you didn't type in "Packers" (i.e. why would I care about the Anderson Packers if I specifically typed in Green Bay Packers?) but in this case it appears to be warranted. I'm glad we clarified this. — GT 22:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
      • If you did not notice, I now simplified the dab msg and moved the entires of Anderson Packers and Chicago Packers to the already existing Packer dab page. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 22:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
        • That is perfect! Thanks for working on this. — GT 22:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uniform History

This is a hard to research subject, the colors of the uniforms. Or it was until the team put a nice history of the uniforms in the programs over the last several years. This confirms green and gold from 1935, on and off. Kelly green and gold in 35 and 36 with a darker green used thereafter. One year green satin uniforms were used and then dropped due to the excessive heat from them. Green and white was used in the early 50's with Coach Ronzani. The first white away jerseys in the NFL were used with green numbers by Lambeau in 1939. The Packer Hall of Fame has a nice assortment of these uniforms. The early 60's Lombardi teams kept certain blue and gold items, like stocking caps, jackets and silk like capes that were almost purple. Once in a while you can see someone wearing one of these capes at Lambeau. They were sold or auctioned off cheap a number of years ago. I guess I have never seen a comprehensive documentation of the uniforms. There were many variants. Ggetzin 02:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

There's a pretty good summary at The Green Bay Packers Uniform Database. --Chancemichaels 19:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

[edit] Split players?

I noticed the template for the Packers had a link to Green Bay Packers players, which is currently not used. Should the current players and draft picks and such in the Packers article be split into this article?--Aviper2k7 18:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] PackerForum.com

I noticed that their link has been removed yet again. Could one of the admins possibly contact them and ask them to cease and desist in constantly re-adding their link? Just a thought. -JakeApple 16:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a bunch of different IP's, and it's getting ridiculous, I agree.--aviper2k7(talk) 20:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I checked that website, and couldn't find an email address anywhere. Surprise, surprise. -JakeApple 02:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joe Hoeffel and Willard Ryan

According to these October 2001 articles in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Willard Ryan served as coach of the Packers in 1919 and Joe Hoeffel did so in 1921:

http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/news/oct01/lambeau28102701.asp

http://www2.jsonline.com/packer/news/oct01/2lamsid28102701.asp

Hoeffel's son, also named Joe Hoeffel, was my representative in the U.S. Congress in Pennsylvania for a few years, and I added this bit of information about his grandfather to his Wikipedia entry. The second of the above two links from the Milwaukee paper mentions his grandson, and I considered the article to be a credible source. RSLitman 20:57, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Active NFL record?

The article states that thirteen consecutive non-losing seasons from 1992-2004 was an active record. Does that mean that the Packers had the longest "current" streak of non-losing seasons going into the 2005 season? I ask this because it's not the longest overall streak of non-losing seasons. The 49ers had sixteen consecutive seasons of at least ten wins from 1983-1998.Politician818 04:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA 2nd

Pretty good start, but very weak compare to the Bears and Patriots FAs I failed this article for a number of reasons.

  • No fair use rationales for images
  • Trivia sections aren't recomended
  • Needs a strong copyedit all over, many one sentence paragraphs. Some sections violate WP:NPOV, The Lean years after Lombardi section reads from the POV of a disgrunted Packers fan.
  • There some sections that the article should have like a Statistics and records and In Pop Culture section, a section on Lambeau Field is needed.
  • Still needs more refs, I counted a couple of citation needs around and a couple of the refs doesn't looks like realible sources to me, ref formatting can be better as well.

Jaranda wat's sup 22:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, I added a to-do list on the top of the article so hopefully everyone will work on it and this article will gain GA status.++aviper2k7++ 05:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

"They are considered the best and the largest fan base in the NFL."

Not only is that a blatant POV, it's not even true. I'd say Colts or Steelers fans get that rep, I may be wrong but it's NOT the Packers. --Bears54 05:27, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The statement is POV and the section needs rewording, but every year the Packers are among the top five teams popularity-wise, often at number one and number two. This year before the 2006 season they ranked #4 for popularity. In 2005 they ranked #1. In 2004 they ranked #1. In 2002 they tied for #1. In 2002 they ranked #1. Their popularity is consistently ranked one of the top teams. I'll reword the section later.++aviper2k7++ 06:07, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I know that they're a big fan base, I was talking about them being called the best. Sorry for the confusion. --Bears54 16:30, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stock

I added an image of the stock I own, hope you like it.++aviper2k7++ 22:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Sweet picture. I wish I could buy stock and own the Packers! Maybe they might sell more stock soon. SFrank85 00:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

How do my images violate? I see numerous sportslogos.net images here, and I've even done the requested task on my talk page of converting them to PNG format. What else do you want? Crazy Canadian 23:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The violate fair use criteria #3 in Wikipedia:Fair use. A lower resolution version would be acceptable according to the rules, but a large scale image is violating it.++aviper2k7++ 23:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Mecu uploaded a low-res version of Image:GreenBayPackers 1000.png and has indicated he would do the same for Image:GreenBayPackers 1001.png if it were not an orphan, so I've added back the logo images with the assumption that Mecu can upload a low-res version of the second image. — Zaui (talk) 17:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I just got confirmation from Mecu that he will upload a low-res image later today - see my talk page. — Zaui (talk) 17:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Alert, the Packer logos are from sportslogos.net, now made in low-resolution. Soxrock 23:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The logo Image:GreenBayPackers_100.png is a duplicate of Image:GreenBayPackers_1000.png. Since the first one is the original one, is a small more free one, and is already being used on numerous articles, I think the second one should not be used and be deleted.
As for Image:GreenBayPackers_1001.png, it is not mentioned on the official Packers website. Sportslogo.com is the only place where I could find the article referencing the logo. So I removed it and referenced it. Please see this page. "1961-present: First and only helmet logo in team history, designed for Lombardi by equipment manager Dad Braisher and first applied to Packers headgear in 1961. After introducing the G, the team immediately won two world titles (1961-62), and five over the mark's first seven years. Borrowed by scores of schools, college and high school."++aviper2k7++ 00:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Let me clarify this again. If you use the larger Image:GreenBayPackers_1000.png image, the first one will get deleted. This isn't right, as the first image is the one that is used in all the season articles and the one that is smaller and more free. It makes no sense to have two, and it makes no sense to keep the bigger one when the small one works fine.++aviper2k7++ 00:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

See, I think completely different, I like the 300x197 image, it's low resolution, and why must you use a small one? Maybe it's not one of your objectives, but images can get downloaded from wikipedia, and a smaller one size wise will affect that potential. And it's archived, so if they want they can get a big one. But come on, I prefer 300x197 and transparency over 100x100 with transparency for the articles. Soxrock 01:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Then the image should be uploaded over the existing file, not completely remade. I put it up for speedy, it's a duplicate and that's against the fair use criteria. Image resolution should be as low as possible. It may look better bigger, but it isn't needed and works fine with the 100x100 resolution. I prefer a wallpaper sized image over a 100x100 image, but it doesn't mean it should be used.++aviper2k7++ 01:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

If I may add a little light on the policy ... the reason for using a smaller image for fair use images is that if someone is making money by selling the image, you don't want to infringe on their right to make money by offering an image just as good as what they are selling. For example, if I am selling prints of a photo and Wikipedia uses my photo under a fair use claim, if a we have a 300dpi copy, then anyone could take that image and print it out on their printer - you would be costing me money. But that isn't really an issue for a logo. It's really only an issue for a photo, or to a lesser degree, a screenshot. But really, there's an even better alternative - use an SVG version of the image. If you ask at Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Images to improve, someone may be able to create one. SVG images are vector-based, as opposed to raster, and so they scale perfectly. No matter what size you want to the image to be, it will be displayed perfectly. --BigDT 03:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

As a follow up, User:aviper2k7 has made an outstanding SVG version of this image - Image:GreenBayPackers 100.svg. Hopefully, this renders the issue moot. ;) --BigDT 04:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jim Irwin

Jim Irwin in the broadcasting section links to Appolo 15 astronaut Jim Irwin, not the radio broadcaster. I dont know what the F im doing so Im not going to attempt to fix it, but someone should. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ChesterMarcol (talk • contribs) 21:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

  • Thanks for the heads up - I've taken care of fixing the link so it points to the right article. -- PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 21:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Awesome, you guys are fast. I didnt think Jim Irwin ever walked on the moon.--ChesterMarcol 07:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
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