Talk:Greek War of Independence

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[edit] Psara poem

The epigram on the Psara massacre had countless spelling and other errors, which I corrected, along with improving the English translation. The poem may seem like folk poetry but is by Dionysios Solomos, who also wrote the Hymn to Liberty, the first two stanzas of which became the Greek national anthem. Yp57 14:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1828

The following events were in the 1828 article. Since they are not mentioned here, I'm moving them out. If they are indeed correct then they should be described here:

[edit] redirect from Greek Revolution of 1821

I added the redirect sorry if I did anything wrong. --Rob 15:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When did it end?

Why does the introduction read "... was a successful war waged by the Greeks between 1821 and 1827"? By 1827, it had not been successful yet. The infobox gives 1828 as end date. But Greece achieved independence in 1832. Common Man 20:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

The last campaigns finshed in 1831 when the Greeks were pushing for more land and attacking the Turks in Central Greece.

[edit] Some treaties merged in

I've merged the Treaty of Constantinople and London Conference of 1832 articles, which were quite short, into this one. I think I've kept redundancies to a minimum, but I'd appreciate if someone could look over the "Diplomatic endgame" section and check whether there's any repeated details that should be trimmed. Kirill Lokshin 03:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battlebox - Forces

The battlebox currently reads simply "Greek guerilla forces" and "Ottoman Empire forces." I think this gives a somewhat incomplete picture. Firstly, not all Greek forces were sensu stricto "guerillas." Demetrios Ypsilantis led a battalion of regulars and tried to organize other Greek fightes along more traditional, Western European lines; although his efforts largely failed, these regulars were still combatants in the GWI. Bouboulina led a highly organized, albeit small, traditional naval force. Moreover, there was participation on the Greek side both by foreign irregulars - Philhellene amateurs who fought as guerillas for free, and foreign advisors who fought for pay on land and sea - like the commanding general after 1830, Richard Church. Regular British, French and Russian naval forces fought in the critical Battle of Navarino.
The Ottomans were a mixed lot, including troops from all over the empire. In World War II articles, it is customary to list New Zealand, Australian and Canadian troops where they participated in major British battles - shouldn't we do the same here? In fact, it should be pointed out somewhere (although probably not in the battlebox) that the organized navy of the Ottomans had a high proportion of Greek sailors.
We do readers a disservice if we don't let them know at the outset how complicated this war really was. We can paint a romantic picture of heroic Greek klephts vs. perfidious Turks, but in reality many foreign nations were involved, and their participation was often critical. The Ottomans would probably have been knocked out of the Peloponnese if not for the intervention of Egypt - only nominally under Ottoman control - and afterwards the Greek rebellion likely would have been crushed in the end without the Battle of Navarino, which crippled the Ottomans at sea and showed them that traditional West European enemies and the Russia they often distrusted were willing to come together to aid the Greeks. --Jpbrenna 03:23, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Heh. I've already changed that ;-) Kirill Lokshin 03:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lord Byron

It is mentioned that Lord Byron, the English poet, fought ont he greek side of the war. I do not know if any other english literary giants fought in the war, but I gather it was somewhat of a cause celebree in its era. Has anyone done any investigation into this?


JBickley00 22:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massacre at Chios

I'm curious about the use of the word "alleged" in reference to this sentence:

The Ottomans retaliated violently in other parts of Greece and uprisings were suppressed by the Ottoman government, allegedly massacring the Greek population of Chios and other towns.

The Wikipedia reference to the Greek town of Chios states clearly that a massacre did occur. Most of what I found on the web regarding the subject indicates that the massacre took place. I'm removing the word "alleged". If anyone chooses to change this please be courteous and post your source disputing the massacre. 68.203.127.188 19:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties and Military size

The battlebox numbers are spectacularly wrong. How is it the Turks inflicted so many casualties and were so vastly outnumbered? Periklis* 05:57, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish Genocide in Peloponnese: Consider for Deletion

Greeks attacked not only turkish military officials but also civilians, a matter which caused a terrible massacre. Main article: see (Turkish Genocide in Peloponnese)

The Ottomans retaliated violently in parts of Greece to the massacre of thousands of Muslims by the Greek insurgents, and uprisings were suppressed by the Ottoman government, massacring in retalliation the Greek population of Chios and other towns. These incidents, however, drew sympathy for the Greek cause in western Europe—although the British and French governments suspected that the uprising was a Russian plot to seize Greece and possibly Constantinople from the Ottomans.

The above statements in this article are unsupported by references and have quite a revisionist history slant. The article "Turkish Genocide on Peleponese" to which a link is established from this article is being considered for deletion from Wikipedia also for having a revisionist history slant. The above statement should either be substantiated with proper scholarly references, or be deleted.

I think not. Just as they might be unreferenced (but definitely not unsupported, as I myself support it), your comment is also unreferenced, and by the looks of it, unsupported. I invite you to sign your signatures next time with four ~ and please try to give more reason to your posts. -- WiiVolve 12:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
(This user looks up to the Ottoman Empire as the best example of a good nation). It's from your personal page WiiVolve. I reckon it's you who should provide references to this utterly unsubstantiated claim. Kalambaki2 00:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What about the other battles?

As I was reading the article, I noticed there were some battles that were not even mentioned - indeed, there were many more than the four depicted in the article.

I was wondering if anyone had any information about the Battle of Valtetsi, Agrinion (?), Gravia Inn (hani ths gravias), Turkish surrender at Palamidi (in Nafplio), naval battle at the Alexandria port and the liberation of Tripoli? (or any other ones) It would be much appreciated if articles could be added regarding these battles of the revolution. IMHO I believe the battles currently depicted focus too much on the successes of the Great Powers (France, Britain, Russia) and on the defeats of the Greek Revolutionaries, which discredits the true efforts made by the Greeks to gain their independence.

This website gives some info: http://www.agiasofia.com/1821/fort1821/struggle.html

It would be better for the people to know the whole truth (even all the 'minor' conflicts), and to acknowledge the true effort and sacrifice of the Hellenic people. Thanks.

GreekFreedom 05:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I am planning on fixing this article soon. As you said there are many significant article which have not yet been written. When I get around to working on this article I shall fix them. Thanks. Kyriakos 11:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

i think there has to be a section focusing on the massacres that took place during the rebellion, somehow the extent of them are greatly downplayed. As user "GreekFreedom" said himself, we have to "know the whole truth" about what happened..--laertes d 17:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

After reading your comment [1] and seeing your edits [2] in Chios massacre, after seeing your edits in Kurdish people [3] and your comment in Talk:Armenian Genocide [4], and after seeing that u "want" credible sources, but at the same time u quote a site named "greekmurderers", i find it difficult to press myself not to revert your edits. Hectorian 22:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hector what is wrong with my edit may i ask? You deleted the entire article just because it offends your greek pride. I used one Greek site and one jewish site for the massacres that took place in pellopennese. Then i made a quotation from greek murderers net although i know that site is far from being objective. Quotation comes from a foreigner historian not written by turks.

The same goes with Chios page, i took as my reference a greek site and the section of smyrna from an absolutely indepedent site..

For God's sake you simple cant delete articles just because you dont like them...

Im going to put them again now if you have any problems with them then find impartial sources disproving mine..--laertes d 23:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Im now asking again why my post is being deleted?. If you dont want hector, i may not use greekmurderers net.-i actually only made a quotation from there- But the massacres of peleponnese is a reality, thousands of turks, albanians and jews were killed.. --laertes d 00:02, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

No one is disputing that. It will be included in a more NPOV manner (i.e. compared and contrasted with the atrocities committed against the Greeks). Thulium 00:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I can provide some non-turkish sources which says the number of deaths in Chios were either 20.000 or 25.000.The number 42.000 might be an exaggeration..

Refferin to the painting of Delacroix

"The Massacre at Chios With great vividness of color and strong emotion it pictured an incident in which 20,000 Greeks were killed by Turks on the island of Chios."

http://www.cs.wayne.edu/~zhw/csc691/tour1pic4detail.html

or

"On the island of Chios 25,000 Greeks are killed while in the Peloponessos the Greeks kill 15,000 of the 40,000 Turks living there"


http://www.ahistoryofgreece.com/revolution.htm --laertes d 00:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Or, we can rephrase and say that 100,000 Greeks perished in Chios (including those massacred, those died of diseases shortly after and those who were sold as slaves, and are unaccounted for ever since...). Hectorian 00:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I think that section is redundant in this article, but if you have your hearts set on it, so be it. It if it saying though it will have to be balanced (within the full meaning of the word). Thulium 01:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Paparrigopoulos (History of Greek Nation, Volume 6), speaks of 40,000 deaths on the island, while a total of 70,000 souls "perished". I don't think the current section is inaccurate.--Yannismarou 16:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
And please, laertes, do not present uncited sites and "Greek Tourist Guides" (?!!) as reliable history sources!!!--Yannismarou 16:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

And yanni im sure Paparrigopoulos, a greek historian, is the most objective and reliable source on the issue..Anyway, i didnt touch to that section. --laertes d 17:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

by the way, by pure chance, in many other sites i came across the number of casualties are listed as 20.000 or 25.000..Anyway..--laertes d 17:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Stop talking me about sites and start mentioning verifiable and reliable sources. If you do not know what is that, check this.--Yannismarou 18:24, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Then again we are assuming Paparrigopoulos is "the" reliable source..--laertes d

Constantine Paparrigopoulos is a very respected historian. He is the historian who has thoroughly examined the Greek War of Independence from every aspect. Could u point out a Turkish historian of the same importance who has written about the Chios massacre? or this event (as well as many other) are of no existence for Turkish historiography? Hectorian 21:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Peter Paroulakis fives the causualties as 100,000 people including the dead, captured and those who died from diseases. Kyriakos 05:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Casualities

As a source for the casualties on the Ottoman side, there is a web site listed. It claims that the Ottomans lost 15,000 men and the Egyptians lost 5,000. I don't think that that site is accurate. During the Egyptian Invasion of Mani, the Egyptians lost 4,400. If we include Missolonghi, Maniaki, Navarino and all the other battles and skirmishes that the Egyptians fought in, I doubt they would have only lost about 600 men.

In the article it say that the Ottomans lost 115,000 men while in the web site it say only 15,000. I also doubt that the Ottomans only lost 15,000 and then again I also think that 115,000 might be a bit to high. Kyriakos 05:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The Egyptian casualties were limited to military personnel. I do not know what their exact number may be. The Ottoman casualties also included civilians, although the number of the Muslims was never particularly high in southern Greece. also, their is no number for the English-French-Russian casualties; apart from the volunteers, they also lost soldiers in Navarino. The respective article says 181 dead, but i do not know if it is correct. Hectorian 09:21, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, from the top of my head, 181 sounds right. Kyriakos 09:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I think so too. I added it. Hectorian 10:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

People who were killed in peleponnese had been murdered because of their ethnicity, labeling ottomans is wrong beacuse literary speaking Greek rebels themselves were also Ottomans. im changing the word ottomans with "turks" . And please do not change the content of the text without notification--laertes d 12:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Most of those "Turks" were Albanian speaking. Call them "Muslims" at best. Thulium 13:02, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, in that section we're discussing all dead, not just the Muslims. Thulium 13:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyway thulium, then use the same labeling for greek deads as well. Call them "ottomans" and say 42.000 ottomans in chios were killed..If youre not going to do that then please dont change "Turks" to ottomans as well.. there were albanians who were killed by Greeks, thats true but many people who were living there were ethnic turks..--laertes d 13:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The term "turk" at that time meant "ottoman muslim". if u call these people "ethnic turks", u are falling into the trap of anachronism. u do not know how many were the muslim albanians and how many the turks (in the sense u use the term) there! apropos, in most of the historical recordsa of the time, the most commonly name to refer to them was 'τουρκαλβανοί', id est 'turkalbanians'. Hectorian 14:36, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

then i repeat my Hectorine, the term Greek applied to the greek speaking christian ottomans at the time therefore we have to say ottomans were killed in Chios.

And the most funny thing about your reasoning is that, just one ligne after it writes: "Turkish soldiers began the massacre of thousands of Greeks.. "

I guess even you can understand the stupidity in here, when ethnic turks are being killed it is ottomans and when ottoman soldiers are killing you call it turks..

Point here, eventhough such a division was not that much importan for the people in that period doesnt change the fact many people who are killed at that time were ethnic turks..--laertes d 15:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it has been explained to u that u should use reliable sources. Linking to tourist guides is not much of a source. Also, read again what u edit: On April 26th 1981 for example, the Greeks attack Athens... 1981?!huh? Citation for what u've asked will be provided shortly. do the same for what i've asked, or else it will be removed. Do not expect another reply from me if u do not spell my username correctly. Hectorian 17:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Thats the problem, i dont want any reply from you, just dont distrupt my posts for gods sake, and you did it again. It was a greek site and much more credible a source that what you learn from your high school..--laertes d 17:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

If a greek site claims it then you have to show up something which contradicts if you want to delete it..--laertes d 17:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I think wikipedia should give me money instead of blocking me for the time i spent arguing with you..--laertes d 17:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Although I am "honored" that u consider every Greek site reliable, u have to learn what the words "academic source" stand for. U were blocked for violating specific rules; also, have in mind that Wikipedia is non-profit... don't expect money... LOL Hectorian 17:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yannismaoru, where are you now to warn your co-patriot for his continuing violation of the rules of wikipedia?


Rules for reversion:

Dont's Do not simply revert changes that are made as part of a dispute. Be respectful to other editors, their contributions and their points of view. Do not revert good faith edits. In other words, try to consider the editor "on the other end." If what one is attempting is a positive contribution to Wikipedia, a revert of those contributions is inappropriate unless, and only unless, you as an editor possess firm, substantive, and objective proof to the contrary. Mere disagreement is not such proof.

Generally there are misconceptions that problematic sections of an article or recent changes are the reasons for reverting or deletion. If they contain valid information, these texts should simply be edited and improved accordingly. Reverting is not a decision which should be taken lightly.


Do not revert changes simply because someone makes an edit you consider problematic, biased, or inaccurate. Improve the edit, rather than reverting it. --laertes d 18:06, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not see any problem with what Hectorian has done. And I very much doubt that many Albanians were killed as most of the Turko-Albanians had been murdered by Hassan Pasha in 1777. Kyriakos 07:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yataghans into sheaths

I think it time we place our swords and yataghans into their sheaths and we work on glorifing and fixing this article. I think that if Greeks, Turks and Wikipedians of other nationalities collaborate on this article we can have success and bring this article to FA. Kyriakos 07:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

to say "many jews who are traditionally on the ottomans side" is a clear usage of POV..--laertes d 18:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Domitius, read and impose your nationalist history telling within the boundaries of your own country, not in an international forum. Youre damaging the article without providing any source..--laertes d 20:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Massive Renovations

I am planning of re writing the whole article very soon in a manner that will hopeful please everyone. Before I start I need some sources. So if anyone knows any good books in English or Greek it would be useful. Thanks. Kyriakos 00:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Jelavich, Barbara (1983). History of the Balkans, 18th and 19th Centuries. New York: Cambridge University Press - this goes into some detail about the Greek revolution
  • Kasaba, Reşat (1988). The Ottoman Empire and the World Economy. SUNY Press - has info about the economic status of the Greek community in the OE, immediately prior to the revolution. --Free smyrnan 08:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I will help you during your rewriting, Kyriakos. I have:

  • Paparrigopoulos (commented by Carolides),
  • the "Helios" articles about the Revolution,
  • soon I'll also have the articles and analyses from "Papyrus-Larousse-Britannica (2006)",
  • I also have the relevant article from Britannica (2002),
  • The memoirs of Kolokotronis,
  • The memoirs of Makrygiannis.
  • A collection of works by Solomos that could also be useful.

In general, my message is clear: don't worry! Sources is going to be the least of your problems! You'll have so many that you'll not be able to put them in the right order (kidding!). But, indeed, if we have sources like the ones Free smyrnan proposes (from the Turkish prespective), we can make this article not just FA, but one of the very few in all the encyclopedias of the world (and I am not kidding now!).--Yannismarou 10:01, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish deaths during the war and other things - disappointment :-(

These tragedies were not motivated by anti-semitism. The killings of many Jews, who lived in urban centers with Turks, were more a side-effect of the killings of the Turks of Tripolis, the last Ottoman stronghold in the South where the Jews had taken refuge from the fighting, than a specific action against Jews per se. In general, Jews within Greece and throughout Europe were supporters of the Greek revolt, using their wealth (such as the Rothschilds) as well as their political and public influence. The Greek state also attracted many Jewish immigrants from the Ottoman Empire following its establishment, as in the Ottoman Empire Jews, like Christians, were second class citizens and had to wear distinctive clothing, could not testify in court and were required to pay higher taxes.[11] Furthermore, Greece was one of the first countries in the world to grant legal equality to Jews.

I find the above apologist to say the least. Am I the only one to think so? The Rothschilds supporting Greek independence is not proof that Greeks loved Ottoman Jews. As for second class citizenship, don't forget that we are talking about the period after tanzimat, when the OE moved to equal rights for all subjects, quoting 16-17th century rules on distinctive clothing for all (Turks were not allowed to dress as they pleased either you know) distorts the topic. Again, on the subject of higher taxes, we are talking about an extra 10% tax levied on non-Muslims, abolished permanently in 1856. Again, testifying in court, Hanafi jurists did not accept testimony of a non-Muslim against a Muslim, a much earlier period, without mentioning the non-Muslim courts at the same period, or protectorate of foreign powers that came later, or the legal reforms of Tanzimat which unified the system of legal recourse for all subjects of the OE. Greeks granting equal rights to Jews... This is not even worth a comment for encylopedic treatment of the topic.

Another contention: The Revolution breaking out in Morea and the revolutionaries actions against Muslims of the area has not been removed, but moved to later and preceded with a sentence that reads: Almost as soon as the revolution began, there were large scale massacres of civilians by both the Greek revolutionaries and the Ottoman authorities. The Greek revolutionaries massacred many Muslims inhabiting the Peleponnesos and Attica where Greek forces were dominant, whereas the Turks massacred many Greeks especially in Ionia (Asia Minor) and the islands where the revolutionary forces were weaker.

Fine, but revolution breaks out in March 1821, Chios massacres take place in 1822. What is so impossible about stating that Muslims were massacred first, and Greeks were massacred later?

I could go on... If the idea is to collect relevant facts and present them dispassionately (as we are encouraged to do whenever similar white washing takes place in Turkey related topics), I would like to collaborate. But, I do not have the energy to guard against this sort of editing and will bow out if this is to be considered normal and leave Greek editors to write their version of history in peace, rather than have it be assumed that the resulting mess also incorporates Turkish historiography. Regards --Free smyrnan 08:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Concur... I didn't understand the point of the latest expansion and re-ordering of some info, either.. I am not Jewish, but I found it a bit weird that bit jumping through hoops to say that Jews simply happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time... I don't know if anti-semitism were a factor or not, but that bit is odd... Baristarim 08:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I reverted back to the pre-ordering version for the massacres section. All those additions about how Jews were accidentally killed by mobs who were actually trying to kill Turks (?! - not even quality apologetic at that :)) didn't sit right.. + the bit about how Jews fled Ottoman Empire because they couldn't testify in court etc was also not right and was simply a dirt-throwing contest. On an irrelevant note, the serious anti-semitism has always taken place in Christian lands by the way ever since Spanish Reconquista - food for thought.. The other reordering and the moving up of the "movement for independence" section is ok, I just took back that section... Baristarim 09:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
No, I do not consider it OK. The first atrocity in the revolution was not the murder of the Patriarch. As long as I do not see a non-Turk also step up and revert/edit/correct this kind of editing, I am without hope with regards to this article. Collaboration is a different animal than reluctant compromise. --Free smyrnan 11:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
As unfortunate as the Greek Revolution was for the Turks, you'll find that presenting it as little more than a Muslim-slaughtering exercise misses the point vis-à-vis its historical significance and is unlikely to find favour with Greek editors. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Trying to present the Revolution as a slaughter of Muslims is not something I tried to do or would do. White-washing the revolution in glorious terms, sweeping all of the unfortunate events done by the Greeks under the rug while magnifying everything that was done by the Muslims is the main tone of this article, which is what I am pointing out. And no, I do not consider the Greek revolution unfortunate at all. It was a very auspicious event, bringing some peace of mind by giving the Greeks someone other than the Turks to blame for every blight in history that ever occurred to them. This article is off my watch-list. Thank you and good bye. --Free smyrnan 11:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that the entire paragraph dedicated to the Muslim casualties quite constitutes sweeping the matter under the rug. On the other hand, the atrocities committed by the Ottomans are well-documented and cannot be ignored. Attempting to present them as just punishment or mere retaliation for the acts of the unruly Greeks is not a neutral assessment either. But rest assured, the Greeks have such a long history that it would be neither fair nor possible to blame the Turks for more than a small fraction of their travails. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Everything mentioned is factual. True, Chios was in 1822, but the murder of the Patriarch preempted any Greek massacres of Muslims, and was the reason for driving Greeks into a frenzy. Also the massacres in Asia Minor happened soon after the outbreak of the revolution.

The part about the Jews being killed as collateral damage is cited in an academic source and a url is provided, read the paper rather than reverting to the old version which portrays the revolution as a Turkish POV massacre. -Manolis

I didnt delete anything necessary if you look at my edits domitius. many jews might be the supporters of the revolt outside greece but it has no value in the section where we are mentioning about the massacres that took place in Greece..

Plus the book in my hand says a different story about the hanging of Patriarch, he was not saved by Greek sailors, he cant be since he was long dead.--laertes d 19:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Yet a further point, please dont change the content of citations since they can be considered "citations" as long as they remain the same as they were written.--laertes d 19:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Laertes, read more carefully. His CORPSE was saved by Greek sailors for a proper Christian burial.

I changed the term "unarmed Ottoman settlements" to "Turkish civilians. There are a large number of reasons for doing this. First, most of these places were not "Ottoman settlements," for example Tripoli, where the largest massacre took place, dates to classical times despite a large number of Turks living there during the revolution. Furthermore, many of these settlements were civilians were massacred were quite well armed, again Tripoli is an example of this. Thus I feel that Turkish civilians is a much better term, and Jelavich does not use the term "unarmed Ottoman settlements."

Sigh, why to revert now? Everything i deleted were unsourced data and everything you reverted was the sourced information from credible books Alexius..--laertes d 19:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

For instance, the beginning part has no source whatsoever and the last paragraph is totally unneeded for..massacres started in pellopennese not in Chios.--laertes d 19:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The introduction is necessary to maintain a more balanced POV and show that both sides committed massacres. It just briefly summarizes what is said in the other two paragraphs, which is all sourced. At least one thesis sentence is needed saying in effect "both sides killed a lot of civilians. Odd, I thought I had sourced the part on the Jews in Greece, but anyway the source is there now. --AlexiusComnenus 19:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

And alexius why we need this infformation about the jews?

The article itself doesnt need that intro because both sides killed civilians thats true but before these edits there wasa alreaddy a part about ottomans killing civilians--laertes d 19:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not have the information on Jews? They were a present minority community and what happened to them should be explained.

True, but before it was just a laundry list of X killed Y at location Z. I think the new version gives much more information and also has the benefit of being summarized for those who just glace over the article. --AlexiusComnenus 20:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Laertes, please stop pushing a POV. Referring to the killing of Patriarch Gregory (a civilian) "Turkish counter-terror" is not only clearly a POV phrase, it is quite offensive to me and any other Orthodox Christian who would read this. It is also just plain bad English, not one would use the phrase "counter-terror" to talk about the Greek revolution. --AlexiusComnenus 20:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

then you should buy the book written by Wiiliam St. Clair, how can it be POV pushing when im making a reference to a book--laertes d 20:10, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Are there any non-greek moderator who can evaluate the situation here, why my edits are constantly vandalized by some Greek users here..--laertes d 20:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't have the book, but I can almost guarantee that St. Clair does not use the phrase "counter-terror." It is just not good English, counter-terror refers to the SAS and FBI and the like countering terrorist operations. That is really the only context in which it is used.

I'm fine with you new edit, with the St. Clair quote. I think it is quite just, accusing both sides of terror which is in fact what happened. "Fighting terror with terror" implies parity, whereas "counter-terror" implies imparity, I think our problems were largely of language rather than intent. I apologize if I accused you of pushing a POV. --AlexiusComnenus 20:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

i guess labeling "counter-terror" was also used to signify parity, not in a sense of claiming countering the terror activity but to say "reply with the terror". Anyway im also okay with it now..--laertes d 21:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

One more thing, massacres started in Peleponnese chronologically and before the edit race of the last two days the section of massacres were starting with the Greek massacres in there, i dont see why it should be changed therefore i am rearranging it..--laertes d 06:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

What you are saying is totally false. Tripoli fell in September, whereas the Patriarch was killed on Easter (which is in the springtime always) and Greeks were massacred in Ionia in June several months before any major massacres took place in the Peleponnesus. Thus we should keep the current organization. --AlexiusComnenus 10:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

What i say is totally true Alexius, as you can see yourself various historians agree on the fact that first Greek actions were taken against Ottoman civilians and actually within the first weeks of the revolt there was not left any turk..Massacres towards Turks took place in the spring of 1821. Massacres in the peleponnese predates both tha hanging of Patriarch and the massacre in Ionia.

"Turks of Greece left few traces. They diassapeared suddenly and finally in the spring of 1821.."

William St. Clair

--laertes d 20:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

And what is this thing about calling everything with " according to" when it comes to the massacres committed by Greeks..--laertes d 20:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

"Furthermore, many Jews within Greece and throughout Europe were supporters of the Greek revolt, using their wealth (as in the case of the Rothschilds) as well as their political and public influence to assist the Greek cause. The Greek state also attracted many Jewish immigrants from the Ottoman Empire following its establishment, being one of the first countries in the world to grant legal equality to Jews."

This same paragraph is being used two times in the article both in the Philhellenism and the massacre section, therefore if you excuse me im going to delete it Domitius, you might not be noticed it but Alexius made a new heading and carried that passage to there as it makes more sense outside the massacre section..--laertes d 21:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

You deleted a lot of stuff I had added on Rigas! If you claim that any massacres took place before the hanging of Patriarch Gregory, prove it. Give the names of villages and dates of massacres. Also what is the page of the St. Claire quote? -AlexiusComnenus

1-What i did delete?

2- im repeating, this same passage is being used two times in the same article, chose one and delete the other..

3-Various historians says the same thing that some of the first Greek actions were taken against the ottoman civilians and within few weeks Turkish civilians almost ceased to exist..Hanging of the Patriarch was a response to the outbreak of the revolt therefore by the usage of simple logic it took place after the beginnings of massacres in Peleponnese.. And check this:

"The Ottoman Government in Constantinople, faced with violent revolutions in different parts of the Empire, decided to answer terror with terror... On Easter Sunday, the reigning Patriarch, Gregorios, was formally accused of being implicated in the Greek rebellion and was summarily hanged. His body remained for three days suspended from the gate of Patriarchate, and was draged through the streets and thrown into the sea.."

St.Clair p.3

"..Turkish terror which began with the hanging of the Patriarch at Constantinople on Easter day, started before the Ottoman government realized full extent of what was happening in the Peloponnese, but soon it was in full swing."( i said terror instead of counter terror, that also means massacres wsa already taking place before the hanging of patriarch)

p.12

4-That quotation you ask is also from the 13th page, i might erase it if you want though since it might be considered, lets say, too "suggestive" --laertes d 23:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yet from another source i didnt put in the article,

In the Month of April 1821, a muslim population, amounting upwards of twenty thousand souls, was living, dispersed in Greece, employed in agriculture. Before two months had elapsed the greater part was slain-men, women, children were murdered without mercy or remorse.."

George Finlay, History of Greek Revolution, London, 1861, p.172

"26 March to 22 April 1921, 10-15.000 muslims killed.."

George Finlay, p.152

George Finlay also says as you can see, massacres started just with the outbreak of revolt..--laertes d 00:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Your quote just confirmed exactly what I was saying:


"..'Turkish terror' which began with the hanging of the Patriarch at Constantinople on Easter day, 'started before the Ottoman government realized full extent of what was happening in the Peloponnese', but soon it was in full swing."( i said terror instead of counter terror, that also means massacres wsa already taking place before the hanging of patriarch)

In the Month of April 1821, a muslim population, amounting upwards of twenty thousand souls, was living, dispersed in Greece, employed in agriculture. 'Before two months' had elapsed the greater part was slain-men, women, children were murdered without mercy or remorse.."

Again, please name any massacre that happened before April 10, 1821 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_10). The Turks hung Patriarch Gregory 16 days after the revolution. He was killed in retaliation for the revolution, not for any alleged massacres of civilians. The main massacre committed by Greek rebels happened in Tripoli months after the Patriarch was killed.

Unless you can prove that there was some massacre of Muslim civilians that happened before April 10, and that news of it travelled to Constantinople, I must be forced to agree with St. Clair that "Turkish terror... started before the Ottoman government realized full the full extent of what was happening in the Peloponnese." --AlexiusComnenus 00:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Alexius you turned this thing into a child game, i showed at least 4 historians say the massacres started with the outbreak of revolution since firrt Greek actions were taken against Ottoman civilians, George Finlay says massacres started on the 26 March, St. Clair and others say within three weeks there wasnt left any Turk and you still keep asking to me to show if there is a massacre before 10 april..By the april 10, that makes 2 weeks after the beginning of revolt, a considerable turkish population was already buthcered..

If one day you will write a history of greek revolution you can put things the way you want but this article is not your personal belonging stop vandalising it please..--laertes d 07:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

alexius, as you may have noticed i have enough document in my hand about Greek atrocities and i can also make this article hell long but i dont use them in order for the section to be short and concise, you dont have to put everything you know in the article what this poem is needed for, for heaven's sake?--laertes d 07:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I did not intervene in this "tit for tat" editing about who did first what, but I really don't like editors to remove material (any material!) without first discussing it here. Laertes d, the article does not belong to you, so if you want to remove material, any material, bring the issue here, present your arguments, and then we'll see. First discussion; then decisions.--Yannismarou 08:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh yannısmarou here you are again, thanks for joinıng us. I guess ı presented my argument ın here, poetry does only make artıcle longer and serve no purpose other than dısguısıng the massacres commıtted by Greeks and obvıously that ıs what ıs ıntented by Alexıus. Anyway ı dont care ıf you want ıt to remain let ıt remaın, just keep ıt ın mind ıf youre goıng to contınue expandıng the massacre section ım going to do the same, ı have more valuable materials whıch ı dıdnt ınclude so far consıderıng ıt an unneceassary burden to article..--laertes d 11:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

And Alexıus cıte your sources properly you cant just write "Davıd Brewer the greek war of ındependence", at least say from what page you got that one, we all know you have such a bad habit of modifying the references and quotatıons..--laertes d 11:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Gorram, you two can't you contain this discussion in the relevant section? You don't need to mess up the whole talk page! Please, there are other things about the article being discussed!!!! --Michalis Famelis (talk) 15:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Look, Finlay just says Muslims killed in the quote that you offerred. He does nots specifically say civilians, most of the Turks in the Peleponnesus were part of the military garrison.

I have mentioned a specific event, the killing of Patriarch Gregory on April 10. Please find a specific event that happened before this. If you cannot, the hanging of the patriarch must be mentioned first.

It is totally ridiculous to mention the fall of Tripoli before the hanging of Gregory, don't you agree? -Alexius Comnenus

Alexius- "Look, Finlay just says Muslims killed in the quote that you offerred. He does nots specifically say civilians"

youre kidding right? "men, women, children were murdered without mercy or remorse.." Finlay


Alexius-"It is totally ridiculous to mention the fall of Tripoli before the hanging of Gregory, don't you agree?"

It is totally, completely, unbelivably ridiculous to mention about Ottoman massacres or hanging of Gregory first eventhough almost every single non greek non turk historian says that first massacres conducted in Peleponnese, dont you agree? (just because you want to make massacres committed by Greeks less visible in the article, thats why you keep opening new headings and hijack massacre section with unrelated so called poetry, with translations :) )

And what specific massacre are you asking for?, Jelavich and others say first Greek actions were directed toward Ottoman civilians and Turkish population ceased to exist within few weeks of the revolt..St. Clair mentions from the hanging of the Patriarch as " Turkish counter terror", how clear can any expression be?--laertes d 20:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

He does not call it counter-terror, this are you own words and furthermore poor English. His words are "The Ottoman Government in Constantinople, faced with violent revolutions in different parts of the Empire, decided to answer terror with terror... On Easter Sunday, the reigning Patriarch, Gregorios, was formally accused of being implicated in the Greek rebellion and was summarily hanged."

Obviously, St. Clair is referring to terror as the rebellion in general, not massacres of civilians.

Anyway, as I have said many times, if there was a massacre that happened before April 10, which is when the Patriarch was hanged, it should be quite easy to mention it, right?

What I will do now is suggest a compromise. Rather than have two sections Greek and Turkish massacres, let us order 'specific' things totally chronologically. The following chronology is accurate for the article, to the best of my knowledge:

1) April 10, 1821, the hanging of Patriarch Gregory. 2) June, 1821 massacres of Greek civilians in Ionia 3) 11 September, 1821 fall of Tripoli and massacre of Turks there 4) 1822 Greeks massaced in Chios 5) 1824 Greeks massacred in Psara

Tripoli is the only place where you have mentioned a specific massacre, and this is the only massacre of Turkish civilians that I am familiar with, although there could very well be other masscres that I know nothing about. In order to deal with the disputed chronology, we must mention 'dates' and 'places' of any massacre. In my view, this is the only way we can agree. If you can find a specific massacre before April 10, please do mention it.

Also can we have input from other people? Do they think that this is fair? -Alexius Comnenus

If you can find a specific

[edit] about the template

It would be probably best to discuss this at Template talk:Greek War of Independence, but I think it could reflect on the main article as well, so I post it here. I've made a few changes at the template. Namely, I changed England to UK, Russia to Russian Empire, added a few important Brits and the Sultan Mahmud II. I don't think anyone would object to these. However I'd like to change a few other things. That is, the names of two of the Ottoman generals: Omer Vryonis and Dramalis. These names are clearly the Greek transliteration of their ottoman turkish names. I only know of them from greek language textbooks, so I don't really know their real names. Is there anyone knowledgeable enough to provide these guys real names? They could also be named in the main article (I haven't checked), so it would also matter there. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 18:13, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Let us Expand the Center

We need more about the Greeks driving the Turks out pre-1824, infighting amonsts the Greeks, and then Ibrahim's invasion. These parts of the revolution are quite poorly covered in the article.

--AlexiusComnenus 8:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Wow I also realized that Ypsilanti and the sacred battalion are not even mentioned! This article really needs some work! Ade paidia, grapse! --AlexiusComnenus 8:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Egyptian Flag in Template

The Egyptian flag is incorrect-- Egypt under Mohammed Ali used the similar but different flag below:

According to Flag of Egypt, the flag currently used in the template and the article is correct. The one you pointed to was used from 1922 to 1952, again according to the same article. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 15:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

We should read the page again, as I understand the green flag was used in Egypt from 1922 to 1952. I think it says Mohammed Ali adopted the flag with three crescents in 1805, meaning that the Egyptians would have been using his flag during the revolution. AlexiusComnenus 20:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

You are right, I was mistaken:

To signify his autonomy from the Ottoman Porte, and his own grandiose ambitions of challenging the Sultan for control of the Ottoman Empire itself, Muhammad Ali introduced a flag highly reminiscent of the Ottoman flag, with three white crescents and three stars on a red field.

Thanks for pointing that out! :-) --Michalis Famelis (talk) 20:28, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Fixed the template with both the flag and the "khedivate" thing. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 20:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Laertes' "Source"

Apparently all the quotations Laertes is using come from the same souce www.greekmurderers.net where there is an article written by a Turkish-Cypriot. Given the content of this website, and the general tone of article, I am quite disinclined to believe that all the citations are genuine. Regardless, even on that site, all of the alleged "massacres" save the one in Kalamata (where only men were killed, so I am inclined to believe this was a garrisson) took place in August or later.

This website also, quite hilariously claims that the Chios massacre (which is tremendously well documented) was committed by Greeks against Turks!!! Given this information I do not think that we can trust the content of the website at all.

Furthermore, according to the site, St. Clair agrees that the Greek massacres were committed in retaliation to something (which I assume is the killing of Gregory): "the savage passion for 'revenge' soon degenerated into a frenzied delight in killing and horror for their own sakes".

Now the question is, should we trust a website called "Greek Murderers" which was created to slander Greeks? -AlexiusComnenus

I can access a review of the St. Clair book tomorrow at the library, but I find it somewhat doubtful that thsoe quotes are genuine. From what I can find the St. Clair book is about philhellene volunteers that went to fight for the Greek cause, so most of these quotes seem a bit strange given the source...

I think for now all that we can do is use 'direct' chronology when we know a specific action at a date and place. -Alexius Comnenus

Alexius none of my edits are coming from greekmurderersnet and i have the book of St.Clair in may hands im actually holding it now, you can always buy and see for yourself--laertes d 21:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Alexius-"He does not call it counter-terror, this are you own words and furthermore poor English."

thats how exactly he called it, not my wording..belive it or not thats your problem

Alexius-"Tripoli is the only place where you have mentioned a specific massacre, and this is the only massacre of Turkish civilians that I am familiar with, although there could very well be other masscres that I know nothing about."

All the historians i mentioned about gives specific location and time for massacres, that is pelloponnese and the first weeks of the revolt.. That is a point of consensus for all the historians mentioned and they also say some of the first greek actions were directed towards civilians.. What you keep doing is nothing but vandalizing the article--laertes d 21:32, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Alexius-"Furthermore, according to the site, St. Clair agrees that the Greek massacres were committed in retaliation to something (which I assume is the killing of Gregory): "the savage passion for 'revenge' soon degenerated into a frenzied delight in killing and horror for their own sakes"."

Wrong, let me quote it to you from the book

"..The Greeks who were party to the conspiracy proclaimed a revolution and began to murder the turkish population.Once the first blood was shed there was no going back. The revolutionaries believed that only by ruthlesness could they preserve their safety in the long run, once the murdering began half measures would be fatal..The bishops and priests exhorted their parishioners to exterminate the infidel moslems. The klephts and armatoli came down form the mountains and ravaged the Turkish settlements.The Turks of Greece paid the price for centuries of wrongs, real or imagined, and for their inherited religious beliefs. But the savage passion for revenge soon degenareted into a frenzied delight in killing and horror for their own sakes."

St. Clair --laertes d 21:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Alexius i think im absolutely right on the issue and im going to ask for a non greek moderator attention or may be for protection..Youre vandalizing the article.--laertes d 22:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I* am vandalizing the article??? Please give me a break laertes. I have written half of this article, expaning areas on the Sacred Battalion, Ibrahim's Invasion, Philhellenism, Psara and other things, whereas you have done absolutely nothing but whine about the chronology of a the massacres in the Peleponnesus, an extremely minor part of the revolution. Lets put things in context here. Lets ask for a non-Greek, as well as non-Turkish moderator here.

Hmmm, right you have the book right in your hands. 'I assume that it is only coincidence that you chose to replicate the exact same quote as in www.greekmurderers.net.' Again, give me a break. I highly doubt that you in fact have the book.

Laertes, you just claimed: All the historians i mentioned about gives specific location and time for massacres, that is pelloponnese and the first weeks of the revolt..

If this is true: THEN PLEASE REPRODUCE THESE SPECIFIC TIMES AND LOCATIONS AS I HAVE DONE FOR WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT AND AS I HAVE BEEN ASKING YOU TO DO FROM THE BEGINNING!!! Here are the dates I have found quite simply from wikipedia:

1) April 10, 1821, the hanging of Patriarch Gregory.
2) June, 1821 massacres of Greek civilians in Ionia
3) 11 September, 1821 fall of Tripoli and massacre of Turks there
4) 1822 Greeks massaced in Chios
5) 1824 Greeks massacred in Psara

If you have found a massacre from before April 10, and a valid source, please do cite it.

As for the "counter-terror" phrase, you have not produced the quote and context and I highly doubt that you will for two reasons:

1) Using this phrase is not correct English in common usage for this context and would certainly not make it into publication 2) The phrase is not in a St. Clair quote from www.greek-murderers.net, where all of your prior quotes have been from.

Thus I highly doubt that you will provide said quote in context.

We must agree on a logical system to determine the chronology. Other than mentioning specific events with specific dates, at this stage I do not see any other way of managing things. Please do not revert again unless you find a 'specific event' that occurred before April 10. -AlexiusComnenus

Alexius- "If you have found a massacre from before April 10, and a valid source, please do cite it."

Every single of the sources already say that..

whatever answer i give to you you keep repeating the same things although many times proven wrong, what is the purpose of this discussion?

"As for the "counter-terror" phrase, you have not produced the quote and context.. I highly doubt that you in fact have the book."


I repeat, BUY or BORROW the book and open the page 12.. --laertes d 23:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Or I could just go to www.greekmurderers.net and find the exact same quotations that you have provided... funny how these things work.

'I would like to note that you have failed to provide a specific name and date of any massacre preceding April 10, 1821.'

Trying to discuss with you is a waste of my time. I have provided a chronology, but you are reverting all of my attempts to create a correct chronology in this article and childishly calling them vandalism. I agree with your suggestion that we find a non-Greek non-Turkish moderator to arbitrate this as you are incapable of accepting a correct chronology. AlexiusComnenus 23:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Try Wikipedia:Mediation Baristarim 00:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The events at Vrachori (Agrinio) could not have taken place before the 11th of June, which was when the city was liberated. Does anyone know when Messolonghi and Pylos were liberated?

Dont delete any sourced material. --laertes d 08:53, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

And Alexius, patriarch is not hanged on 10 April, he was hanged at Easter Sunday and that makes 22 April in the year 1821. --laertes d 08:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, we only have the author's word that this is an attributed quote from a 'scholarly' source. I will remove Laertes vandalism in due time.--86.138.232.97 15:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The hanging of the Patriarch was on April 10, in the Julian calendar, and on April 22 in the Gregorian calendar. The Greek revolution starts on the 25th of March, Julian, or the 6th of April, Gregorian. We can use either Julian or Gregorian dates, the only difference is that we add 12 days.

Anyway, please provide dates for those alleged massacres. Also the massacres section is getting way too long, we may want to consider creating a seperate article. There is also a lot of repitition, there are four or five quotes saying basically the same thing, that Greeks killed people in Peleponnesos during the first days of the revolution. None of these quotes give any specifics, so I think that all but one should be deleted to avoid repetetiveness. AlexiusComnenus 19:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Alexius-"Also the massacres section is getting way too long,"

That really make much sense when the guy who is adding up poetry to the massacre section says that..--laertes d 21:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the poetry adds quite a lot actually. The massacre section shouldn't just be a laundry list of x killed y here during z. It should explain why the massacres were important, and in my humble view, they were important for two reasons:

  • Their effects on the Greek national psyche, which is evidenced by the poetry which is taught in Greek schools today.
  • Their impact on European public opinion, which caused the UK, France and Russia to intervene, which is evidenced by the Delacroix painting.

This is why we include these two artistics works. On the other hand, I don't think it adds very much to say 5 times in poor English: "Greek insurgent kill Turk baby it very bad one historyian say FGAFGF other say SADFAR" and spend two paragraphs on the subject. If you want to add new information, that's great but it is pointless to say the exact same thing repeated over and over again. I have not seen you provide any other information other than:

"During the opening months of the revolution, Greek rebels killed many Turkish and Muslim civilians in various cities including Tripoli, Agrinio, Messolonghi and Monemvasia."

What I have summarized in one sentence, it has taken you probably 10 in the article, which in my view is nothing more than a waste of space. AlexiusComnenus 00:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, I would like to add that it "really make much sence when" [sic] the guy who is writing on the English Wikipedia "say that..." [sic]. AlexiusComnenus 00:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation on Massacres

Okay, can I formally request mediation? From his discussion page it appears that Laertes was banned for three days for his reversions of this article, and after those three days he just came back and was up to the same nonsense. I think quite clearly from his history, Laertes cares nothing for the topic at hand and he just wants to ruin the article to make Greece and Greeks look bad. Any attempts at providing a correct chronology have been stymied by Laertes and given his propensity to just revert to however he wants the article. Right now I have two main problems with the subsection--

  • The incorrect chronology.
  • The unnecessary repition of the same facts.

One option may be to create an entirely new article for various massacres during the Greek revolution. AlexiusComnenus 07:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

They are direct quotations from the books, i advise yo to contact with the authors themsevles. btw, any citation or quotation must be verifiable according to the rules of wikipedia thats something lacking in your quoations, i warned you of that if you remember. i seriously want a decent quotation, especially for the quotation number 34, from David Brewer. You cant just write "David Brewer, Greek war of Independence", please specify from what page you got that one, you know you have a bad reputation about these quotations, you keep modifying them the way you want..--laertes d 07:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I made recent edits because of the simple fact that you cant accept that first massacres committed by Greeks in peleponnese, and you continue in denying it still, although i provided a number of reliable sources for that. What you keep saying about "correct chronology" is nothing but you POV pushing. And actually i still have materials in hand that i didnt include, i dont have any such aim to make the article huge but i only added materials which prove you wrong in your claims of correct chronology..--laertes d 07:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

'I would like to note again that you have failed to provide me with the dates of any massacres.'

I have located a copy of the St. Clair book in a local library. I will go get it the day after tomorrow due to the fact that it is Holy Week and I am quite busy. I am looking forward to seeing if an Oxford professor uses such incorrect phrases as "counter-terror," this should prove to be quite interest. AlexiusComnenus 19:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Good, open the page 12 directly and look to the line 12 from the top --laertes d 20:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


I will, and I will also scan it in and post it if there is any disagreement. I would like to note that the first time you posted that quote, you said "Turkish terror" and not "counter-terror." We will see which is written (and I know which one is correct English.) Also more of your bs, the three towns you mentioned, Missolonghi, Agrinio and Pylos all fell in May of 1821, well after the Patriarch was killed. (www.1911encyclopedia.org/War_Of_Greek_Independence) (http://www2.fhw.gr/chronos/12/en/1821_1833/enarxi/09.html) Consequently I am moving these things to the appropriate area of the chronology, please do not revert them. AlexiusComnenus 20:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

First time i wrote it, i worte it as "counter-terror" and you reacted to it and deleted if you remember..--laertes d 20:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

dont delete anything, they were already written as "followed by", they were not the initial massacres..im certainly reverting them--laertes d 20:14, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Which greek claim it, you? Sorry but we dont count you as an authoritative source in the matter..--laertes d 20:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

LAERTES STOP REVERTING!!! ALL OF THOSE EVENTS SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED WERE IN MAY!!! MISSOLONGHI< PYLOS AND AGRINIO WERE IN TURKISH HANDS BEFORE MAY! IT MAKES NO SENSE FOR EVENTS IN MAY TO BE MENTIONED BEFORE EVENTS IN APRIL!!!

Do you deny writing the following? 'I' am the one who added the quote in the article (please check the history) and I copied it directly from the quote that you offered on the discussion page. Anyway, this will all be laid to rest when I get the source. Either way, you have misquoted at least once as you have written both "terror" and "counter-terror."

'"..Turkish terror which began with the hanging of the Patriarch at Constantinople on Easter day, started before the Ottoman government realized full extent of what was happening in the Peloponnese, but soon it was in full swing."( i said terror instead of counter terror, that also means massacres wsa already taking place before the hanging of patriarch)

p.12

4-That quotation you ask is also from the 13th page, i might erase it if you want though since it might be considered, lets say, too "suggestive" --laertes d 23:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)' AlexiusComnenus 22:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


I think the article should be locked until someone can scan in the relevant pages so they can be seen. I am offering to do it by Thursday, my library has access to the book. AlexiusComnenus 22:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

alexius, you really turned this thing into a parody, i openly challenged you, go get the source and if i am misquoting it then come and talk, i am reverting it..btw, the important part with George Finlay's quote is the date he prounounced for the massacres and you deleted it..--laertes d 00:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I deleted nothing, I only moved things to reflect accurate chronology.

I'm not sure about Finlay's dates, was he in Greece at the time? Orthodox and Catholic/Protestant Easter are at different times, you do know that right?

You have still failed to provide any specific massacre before the 10th of April (Julian Calendar.) AlexiusComnenus 01:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's stop reverting. I'm fine with the current version until I can access the sources and we can reach a consensus on length or whether or not we should create a new article. If anything is added it should be specific since we don't need more quotes saying the exact same thing. AlexiusComnenus 01:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Articles are not written here for you Alexius, whether or not you access them or not is not my problem, by your "logic" we have to delete entire Wikipedia until you access the sources.. --laertes d 04:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Well the fact that you:

  • have a repeated history of being blocked from Wikipedia for vandalizing various articles related to Greece,
  • you just fabricated a long quote from Finley by stringing various other quotes together without using "..." to indicate that these were not part of the same sentence,
  • and the fact that you have provided the same quote twice, in one verious using "terror" and the other "counter-terror"

makes me, and any other rational person, quite unsure of whether or not to trust you. The fact of the matter is that you have a history of vandalism and anti-Greek behavior on Wikipedia and consequently anything you write pertaining to Greece and Greeks should be scrutinized under the most severe lense. -AlexiusComnenus

bla bla bla... Quote is not fabricated, how did you decide it to be a fabrication? youre not authorized to make decisions in the name of "community"..--laertes d 08:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The fact that different parts of the same sentence were cited on different pages gave me an indication of this. -AlexiusComnenus

Alexius, youre a genius, you got me.

oh btw, here have the scaned version of the p.12 from St. Clair, i hope you stop whining..(cheap scanning but still useful)--laertes d 20:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Image:St.clair.jpg

Alexius, thats enough, stop adding your personal comments in the article, if youre going to add the quotation youre taking from St. clair, add the whole of it, do not make half quotation--laertes d 09:01, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Domitius you said source removal?, alright lets add the source in its entirety then..--laertes d 10:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

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