Talk:Greek Muslims

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No merge: there is a need for a cover term for Greek speaking Muslims who are and are not Pontian. Opoudjis 01:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Greek-speaking Muslims → Greek Muslims — The current title is a pleonasm, really. While it is accurate and highlights the fact that very few of these people (and probably none in Turkey), espouse a Greek national identity, they are more often referred to as Greek Muslims, and the Greek Muslims which form part of the Muslim minority in Greece are also referred to as Greek Muslims in Greece, e.g. in this quote from Eleftherotypia [1]: Greek Muslims, Pomaks and Muslims of Turkish origin and national consciousness live in Greece after all. I think that as we have an article on Macedonian Muslims (despite the fact that many of these people, and almost all of them in Albania, espouse an Albanian or other non-ethnic Macedonian national identity), I think that this move should be performed. This move does not risk confusion with the article on the Muslim minority in Greece (which the government accepts is multiethnic [2]) - I have proposed a move on the talk page of that article as well (see Talk:Greek Muslim minority) - and if any ambiguity occurs in this inherently ambiguous area, it can resolved with a disambiguation note. Finally, a Google test seems to show that this name is more common even for the Greek-speaking Muslims in Turkey [3] [4]. --Tēlex 19:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support --Tēlex 19:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support ,per Telex. I may also be able to add some comments, if it will be necessary. --Hectorian 23:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Neutral I don't have time to look into this thoroughly, at the moment the page strikes me as a disambiguation page, if we move the "The term can also refer to the Greek-speaking Muslims in Greece, who along with ethnic Turks, Pomaks and other ethnic groups, form part of the Muslim minority" up to the top, and drop the external links and see also. Judging from the content of the article, there isn't much to be gained from treating these diverse groups in a single article. If this is changed into a disambig I would probably vote support, as there is no harm at having it at either. - FrancisTyers · 14:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
    It's rather straightforward. The article should deal with Muslims of Greek ethnic origin. There are of course many different groups, such as the indigenous to Turkey Pontic speaking Muslims of Pontos, and the Muslims who arrived with the population exchanges, as well as the Greek Muslims still within Greece. I agree that there's not much to write on the topic, as the literature is rather slim, but there's no point in having it as a disambiguation page. There's not much to write about certain groups, so seperate articles on them probably wouldn't exceed four lines. --Tēlex 16:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Could still do with splitting out into sections — if you insist as keeping it as one page :) - FrancisTyers · 10:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll see what I can do. --Tēlex 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

I don't know, honestly, and I'm not even certain that Macedonian Muslims was a brilliant idea, even if I appreciate the simplicity of the solution you propose. Also, giving a look to scholarship through Google Print, I noted that "Greek muslims" (or "Muslim Greeks") is simply always used for the Greek muslim minority, and never for "Greek-speaking Muslims". The latter instead seems to be used in scholarship [5].--Aldux 00:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

"Muslim Greeks" is also widely used for the Greek-speaking Muslims in Turkey [6], it's just that technically, Greek Muslims is the term used by Greeks (Έλληνες Μουσουλμάνοι) and Turks (Yunan Müslümanları). Also, if you check a few of those results, they are referring to the Greek-speaking Muslims, e.g. [7] and [8] (which distinguishes between Greek Muslims and non-Greek Muslims in Turkey). Also, technically, Greek-speaking Muslims may be inaccurate, because the so-called Greek-speaking Muslims in Greece and Turkey are bilingual in Greek and Turkish (as are the Turks in Greece), and the only distinction is what is used as a home language. Other groups such as Pomaks and Roma have their own languages in addition to Greek and Turkish, although strictly only Turkish is ever used in worship. As I said, it will be ambiguous, and that's why a disambiguation note will be necessary: Greek Muslims (in the sense of Greek-speaking Muslims) only form part of the Greek Muslim minority (who are also sometimes referred to as Greek Muslims). The term Greek speaking Muslims in never used in Greece or for the Greek-speaking Muslim in Greece, whereas Greek Muslims can be used for the Greek-speaking Muslim in Turkey. --Tēlex 12:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
We don't use any wording like "Yunan Müslümanları" (Greek Muslims) in Turkish at all. We call the Turks in Greece as "Batı Trakya Türkleri" (Western Thrace Turks). I beg you please let's not go into another fight on these things. --Gokhan 16:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not talking about the Turks of Western Thrace. I'm talking about the Greek speaking Muslims of Trabzon. --Tēlex 16:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
OK I'm so sorry! I misunderstood. I should be more careful. --Gokhan 20:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Crypto-Christians

Aldux, this is an urban legend, myth, fairy tale etc. Hardly anyone takes it seriously! --Tēlex 16:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, but you never know what a country can take seriously, even if it is absurd. After all, I come from a country where conspiration theories are all to popular.--Aldux 23:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yunan Müslümanları

In Turkish, there is no specific naming for Muslims of Greek descent. The words "Yunan", "Yunanlı" are related only to the country of Greece. Thus, it is odd to use the word "Yunan Müslümanları" for people who do not reside in Greece. The word "Yunan Müslümanları" or (more accurately) "Yunanistan Müslümanları" can be used merely for the Muslim community in Greece. Greeks of Anatolia, Istanbul, Cyprus, etc. are named "Rum" in Turkish, not "Yunanlı" as they do not live in Greece. The term "Yunan Müslümanları" seems to be an indelicate translation of the word "Greek Muslims" but it is definitely irrelevant. --Behemoth 05:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

That's true, but can there be a possibilty of a name like 'Rum Müslümanları'? the word 'Rum' is used for the christain orthodox greeks, right? really, isn't there any name to refer to people of greek decent, speaking greek, but who are religiously muslims in turkey? --Hectorian 15:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
"Rum Müslümanları" is a pure oxymoron. In fact, if you want to fashion a term in Turkish to indicate people who are of Muslim faith and ethnically Greek (and from Greece) it shall be "Yunanlı Müslümanlar", not "Yunan Müslümanları" and such term does not exist in Turkish. There is definitely no Turkish word to indicate a Greek Muslim in the given context. --Behemoth 17:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
To Hectorian: if I understand Behemoth correctly, "Rum Müslümanları" translates into Greek as "Ελληνορθόδοξοι Χριστιανοί Μουσουλμάνοι" ;-) --Tēlex 17:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Yep, it's quite funny. --Behemoth 17:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
They are named after localities, such as Giritli, Yanyalı, Oflu, Tonyalı, etc. and these terms may cover (in a broader sense) anyone from these places, whether they are Greek-speaking or not. --Behemoth 17:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
There's no real term for them in Greek for them (except maybe the popular folk myth of the κρυπτοχριστιανοί του Πόντου - the crypto-Christians of Pontus). It's interesting that Giritli are called Turkish Cretans in Greek (Τουρκοκρητικοί) and the Yanyalı are called Turks from Ioannina (Τουρκογιαννιώτες) - it's a common perception that Islam and "Greekness" or any other ethnicity are incompatible. Even the Muslim Albanians are called Turkish Albanians (Τουρκαλβανοί). --Tēlex 17:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, any Greek-Orthodox Christian is "Rum" and any Muslim is "Τούρκος". --Behemoth 17:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cyprus

When I edited the section about Cypriots, it was only pertaining to Muslim Cypriots who had emigrated to Turkey. Now, as the article is rebuilt to be also related to ones in Cyprus, it needs new edits of the section. Before the "turkification" campaigns of Turkish Resistance Organisation and Denktaş governments, a considerable number of Turkish Cypriots had Greek as their mother tongue. In fact, about 60 % of the names of Turkish villages were in Greek. Is there any information about the current Greek-speaking Turkish Cypriot population in Cyprus? An example is Louroujina where there is also a fast linguistic assimilation going on. However, I am not sure whether even the people of Louroujina may qualify as "Greek Muslims" because they are considered to be of Linobambaki origins core of whom were composed by "Latins" and (to a smaller extent) Maronites rather than Greeks. Anyway, contributions on the subject will be much appreciated. --Behemoth 17:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Figure by Vyron Kotzamanis

The English language Greek source (Athens News Agency) claims that the population of "ethnic Greeks" is over 5,000. However, a more detailed coverage on the event by the Turkish daily Milliyet reports that the exact figure given by Kotzamanis is at 4,720 and he had also declared that the community is on the way to have a large portion of it composed of "people from Antakya" (i.e. Arabic-speaking and originally of the Antiochian Church). [9] I also recall that an education expert (a Greek woman from Istanbul who resides in Greece) asserted that about half of students attending Greek Orthodox schools in Istanbul are "from Antakya". I think the reference should be revised accordingly. --Behemoth 11:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

About those arabic-speaking from the south [10]. --Hectorian 23:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The title should be Muslim populations in Greece

...and should mention and direct towards under separate articles for,

the actual communities,

  • The Muslim community in Western Thrace (autochtonous; who are treated at present in the same article with recent immigrants which is an oddity, since they have a distinct legal status and cultural arguments)
  • The Muslim community in some Dodecanese islands (Rhodes and Kos) (some 5000 people according to my sources; note that I intend to start an article on them some time when I have time)
  • Immigration to Greece (recent immigrants; possibly with subheadings covering specific cases, for example, Albanian immigration to Greece)

historical communities,

historical communities further back, some retaining distinct features,

  • Turks of Macedonia centered around Salonica(Macedonia in the sense of the historical region and the Ottoman province here) (mostly monolingual in Turkish) (till the 1922 Population Exchange and slightly before) (note that we, some Turkish users, intend to use the article on Rumelia for the subject)
  • Sabbateans of Salonica (till the 1922 Population Exchange and slightly before)
  • Cretan Turks (formerly mostly bilingual in Turkish and Cretan Greek) (till the 1922 Population Exchange and slightly before)
  • Muslims of Epirus (Yanyalı in Turkish) (possibly including pockets in Thessaly) (once again, formerly mostly bilingual in Turkish and Greek)) (till the 1922 Population Exchange and slightly before)

and if you wish to go further back,

Note that for Yanyalı and Moralı populations, I am not sure that there is adequately distinctive material to define them under their own articles.

and finally a separate heading for the tie with,

  • Pontic Greek-speaking populations of some of Turkey's Black Sea districts (under a distinct and proper heading)

I won't comment on the present title of the article, except to say that it sounds hollow to me.

Cretanforever

I think u have misunderstood the article's title... it is not about the muslim population in Greece (for those, see Islam in Greece, but it's about Greek-speaking, Greek-identifying, or of Greek origins muslim populations elsewhere... --Hectorian 23:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I won't comment on the title, except to say that Greek-speaking, Greek-identifying, or of Greek origins, sounds hollow to me (as it is indirectly stated inside the article self). We all engage in exercises that please us:) Any objections on me starting (in middle-term) specific articles on Western Thrace and Dodecanese Muslims? Islam in Greece is a fairly ineadequate, general scope. Cretanforever

Keep in mind that we also have Minority groups in Greece; maybe you should work on the Turkish section there. That said, an article on the Turkish minority wouldn't be a bad idea, if it speaks only of the Turks, without pretending to create a fork of Islam in Greece. As an article on the Thracian muslims, we once had such an article, but it was thought better to merge it with Islam in Greece.--Aldux 00:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, u should comment on the articles title, before commenting in all it deals with. i mean, the things u posted about Cham Albanians and the recent muslim immigrants, are totally irrelevant with this article... Anyway, i wouldn't have any objections about u starting the articles u said. i'll wait and see the way u'll edit, and i will comment afterwards. Taking into consideration your history as an editor in graeco-turkish related articles (Chrysostomos of Smyrna, Cretan Turks), i don't think i will have "many" bad comments to say. --Hectorian 00:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Btw, if u are about to begin an article about the muslims from Ioannina (Yanyalı), have in mind that there were many who resided in Thessaly, and they had an important role in the society and history of the Thessalian plain. I am more than anything else interested in Thessaly, so, i will be greatly involved in such an article... --Hectorian 00:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, this was built by your former neighbours Hectorian. [11] It is in İzmir. The family that built it (the family Kardiçalı - which means, from Karditsa) are still prominent in the city's commerce. But I will have to see if there is anything that can be written on Yanyalı that would still have relevance. They have, for the most part, infused inside the mass and dissappeared as such (a little like the Moralı but through a different processus). So I will, at some time, start an article on the Turks of Western Thrace and Dodecanese Muslims (or even Dodecanese Turks if you prefer it that way:) Cretanforever

I did not know that the Yanyalı are still ovious in Turkey (even in a small extend, as u said):). If my 'preference' would make any difference, i would prefer Dodecanese Muslims, or Dodecanese Turks (with the note that all muslims in the Ottoman Empire where called 'Turks' when they acquired that name). --Hectorian 01:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I will title it "Turks of the Dodecanese" with redirects from all possible variants employing the words Muslim or Rhodes or Kos (because in Turkish, to cite, Rodos Türkleri (Turks of Rhodes) would be the more common use), and I will stress that all are bilingual Greek-Turkish in all aspects. It is worth being written because there are some notable personalities issued from the community. Cretanforever

Do not forget to do what u did in Cretan Turks: Related ethnic groups: Greeks. --Hectorian 02:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello, do you have any informations about Muslims from Grevena/Kozani region?They used to have the name Βαλαήs/Vala-ís in greek. thanks

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