Talk:Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922)/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Protected

The article is protected. Please solve your differences on the talk page, rather than by an edit war, and let me know then the article is ready to be unprotected abakharev 03:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, it clearly needs it. I happen to think that Khoikhoi and Hectorian's edits are the most NPOV while the others, notable User:Zeytin are quite biased. --Awiseman 06:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Mitsos 07:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it's time for unprotection. 87.203.237.235 16:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Turkish invasion

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The article says Turkish forces invaded Izmir (sory so sory, Smyrna, ancient names should be used in Wikipedia,right?)how can an army invade its own lands? The war was totaly against a Greek invasion (and the real Imperialists who created this caos was happily watching this bloody scene they created between two nations) This article should be rewriten (I don't request a sentence like "Turkish army liberated the city" but at least everybody should be aware of that the Turkish army was not a invasion force infact it was struggling against an invasion)--Hattusili 05:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Izmir is the modern name of the city, by that time it was called Smyrni (English:Smyrna) by it's Greek inhabitants. Also, Smyrna is the English name and this is the English Wikipedia. Mitsos 07:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

this topic is heavily POV, i mean it makes it sound like Greeks were superior in combat than their Turkish counterparts and that the only reason why they lost was because of a lack of allied support whilst the only reason why Turks won was because of massive soviet support. I mean give me a break, the truth of the matter is the Greeks in their skirts and pon pon shoes got pistol whipped, LOL lutherian 07:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

You say that this topic is POV, while your opinion ("the truth of the matter is the Greeks in their skirts and pon pon shoes got pistol whipped, LOL") is NPOV!!!! You said it yourself: "Greeks were superior in combat than their Turkish counterparts and the only reason why they lost was because of a lack of allied support whilst the only reason why Turks won was because of massive soviet support." This is exactly what happened. Mitsos 07:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, I didn't knew there are Turkish Protestants. Mitsos 07:59, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I see that you need to brush up on your english and/or your grasp of syntax, I was referring to what is being said on the subject matter, certainly not my POV. Oh and I know this sounds like science fiction to you but one doesnt need to be Turkish to appreciate them but you couldnt possibly understand that given your natural bias. lutherian 11:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I see you're holding up quite well these days... —Khoikhoi 16:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Lloyd George in the house of commons would state that the Greek army repeatedly proved itself superior to the Turks and advanced against difficult terrain, outnumbered, with no Allied support, deep into Anatolia, only to be defeated by logistical problems and intervention by foreign powers(who both gave the Turks war material) I am not deriding you for being Turkish. Both sides fought bravely and the article must be fair.

As for who is responsible for igniting the war, that is debatable. The Greeks were justified in launching an offensive. There was a Greek and Armenian genocide going on in Asia Minor. Don't say it didn't happen because it has been well documented and people who have lived through it have given their eyewitness accounts. If millions of innocent Greek civilians were being killed in Asia Minor then the war was justified.Cretanpride 03:18, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

sorry cretinpride but I guess one becomes permanently shell shocked after 700 years of total domination, your pon pon girls never had a chance in the world, and just to remind them of their hollowness, the exercise was repeated in the 70's and instead of putting up a good fight it was all over in less than 24 hours, what a bummer! Oh and about the so called genocide its more a case of losers cant be choosers!!! lutherian 16:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

700 years? Get your facts straight. By the way, the genocide occurred before the war. Are you saying it is okay to kill millions of innocent people? Women and children. Turks must be a savage satanic evil people if they feel that is okay. As for you saying that the Turks are better soldiers then the Greeks, you are mistaken. Just look at history. 300 Greeks at Thermopylae practically destroy an army of 100,000 Persians. Greek troops winning the First Allied victories of both World Wars. Adolf Hitler would say "Out of all the enemies who have fought against us, it was the Greek soldier who fought with the greatest bravery and highest contempt for death." Just because you guys attacked a crumbling Byzantine(Greek) Empire which was already weakened by centuries of conflicts does not make you superior. You guys even had to ask Egyptians for help to try bring down a small band of rebels in the 1820's. The Turks lost 140,000 men just to capture Candia on Crete. An insurgent army of women and children forced an entire Turkish army to surrender on the plain of Apokoronas and forced another Turkish army to practically starve to death in the city of Chania.

Regarding the invasion of Cyprus. The Turks lost 3,000 men in July 1974 and captured 3 percent of the island. In other words, it was a failure. They launched another surprise assault a month later while Greek and Turkish leaders were discussing a peace deal. It seems to me that this shows the Turks are back stabbing cowards.

Regarding this article, it is worthy to note that the Greek army captured Bursa, Eskisehir, Afyon Karahisar and many many other cities and fortresses while the entire time being outnumbered and outgunned. Mustafa Kemal was about to shit his pants! If it wasn't for the Soviets and French giving the Turks war material, and supplying them with intelligence on Greek positions, the Greeks would have crushed Kemal's army. And that is the truth! I bet it hurts doesn't it? Cretanpride 22:48, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

lol, I didnt realize the extent to which you are delusional, no wonder you call yourself cretinpride, it suits you like a glove! Its also funny to note your laments especially your frequent use of "if" and "would have" words, lets face it amigo, the Turks were, are and will always be the victors in any conflict with your pon pon girls, its gotta be in their DNA!. And about my remarks on genocide, I would never insult the memory of those that perished in such tragic circumstances and I am referring to the Jewish holocaust and Rwanda here. But for a bunch of sorry losers to claim that the Turks committed a fictitious genocide on them, now thats an entirely different story! Go feed your delusional self pride to someone else, cuz you arent goint to score any brownie points here! On a side note I would refrain from quoting Hitler in conjunction with greeks, you guys were notorious collaborators, far more ruthless and efficient then even the French, you wiped out an entire community of Jews almost overnight, there is seriously nothing to brag about here! Get a life! lutherian 05:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Collaborators!?!? When Greek rebels were taken prisoner, they refused to talk, no matter how much they tortured them. More Germans were lost in Crete alone, then in the entire occupation of France and Poland combined. The Greeks resisted Mussolini and defeated the Italian invasion even though they were outnumbered two to one. While the rest of Europe was surrendering, the Greeks were fighting. Because of Greek resistance, Hitler had to delay his invasion of the Soviet Union by six weeks which cost him the war. Hitler was quoted as saying "Had the Italians not attacked Greece and needed our help, the wars outcome would have taken a different turn. We could have anticipated the Russian cold for weeks and conquered leningrad and Moscow. There would have been no Stalingrad." How ignorant do you have to be to call us collaborators? Greek Orthodox priests risked their lives to save thousands of Jews. If Greeks could not save their own families, how could they save the entire Jewish population? As for whether the genocide occured, it did. It is proven. I have talked to people who lived through the war who have told me in detail about their experiences. One woman lost her brother. He was hanged by Turkish soldiers along with others.

What about Rhodes? who helped the nazis send almost all of them to death camps? Ask the Jews if you dont believe me, they will tell you how willingly the Greeks collaborated in wiping them from greek territories. And please dont whitewash those racist priests of yours, they are the ones that preach hatred even today! Oh and you have plenty of Turks from Izmir that will tell you of all the barbaric deeds of your fellow countrymen. That also extremely well documented, so please tone down on the camel fodder! lutherian 14:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Are you also aware that Rhodes was an Italian possession in those days? How could you insult brave people like that who stood up to Fascist Tyranny and changed the course of World War II? If the Greeks could not save the lives of their children, how are they going to save the entire Jewish population? By the way, I also highly doubt there are any Turks who will say anything bad about the Greeks. 1.7 million Greek civilians living in Asia Minor were killed. NOT A SINGLE TURK IN GREECE WAS HARMED. That is the truth. (Personal attack removed) Cretanpride 19:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure I was aware, but where you aware that shortly afterwards the Italians were replaced by the Germans who started rounding and deporting the Jews of the island to the death camps and your fellow greeks were doing more then just turning a blind eye? they were in fact willing executioners eager to please their Nazi masters! It is sad and very telling that the 200 Jews left to survive the deporations had to be saved by a Turkish diplomat! Again if you dont believe me, just do a google search! (Personal attack removed) lutherian 05:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

To both of you: keep it civil. This is not a diss-fest. Remember that this discussion page is about this article, not about the war in general. If both of you want to argue about something else, please do it on eachother's talk pages. Thank you. —Khoikhoi 05:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, you say the Greeks have never defeated the Turks. How about the Battle of Apokoronas? The battles in the Balkan wars? Lemnos? Sarantoporo? Thessaloniki? Giannina? Those were all Greek victories. How about the War of Independence? The Turks had to request aid from the Egyptians. Don't come on here with rascist incoherent remarks when you don't know what your talking about.

Also check this out. It is a Greek fighter pilot calmly and easily intercepting a Turkish Fighter which violated Greek territory. If there is a war, the entire Turkish airforce would be destroyed in a matter of days.[[1]] Cretanpride 06:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Dude, what kind of weed have you been smokin? I want some! lutherian 14:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Stop insulting each nation,neither Greek soldiers are pon pon girls nor Mustafa Kemal was about to shit his pants. This is not the place to discuss who is brave and who is not.--Hattusili 12:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Apart from all other discussions,I think saying that the Turkish forces invaded Izmir is just like saying Greek forces invaded Thessaloniki, Soviets invaded Stalingrad or Vietnamese invaded Hồ Chí Minh City. --Hattusili 06:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe we can find a more neutral word than invasion.

To lutherian: Remember to Assume Good Faith, my Turkish friend. Mitsos 09:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Assume good faith from a Greek nationalist? who you kiddin? lutherian 16:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Creatanpride it's no good talking. You are wasting your time with that piece of shit. He must be really high. Mitsos 07:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

And if the only thing you are doing in wikipedia is expressing your antihellenic feelings, then you are writing in the wrong encyclopedia. Mitsos 07:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You accuse the Greeks of collaboration. Remember that Greece was the only occupied country which didn't sent a legion to fight against the Russians. Also, there were no Greek vollunteers in the Waffen SS (in contrast to French, Belgians, Dutch, Croatians, Danish, Norwegians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Ukranians and Russians). In addition, only 500 Greeks went to Germany to work during WWII, which is nothing compared to thousands of French, Belgian, Dutch Danish, Norwegian, and Polish vollunteers. Greece and Yugoslavia had the biggest resistance movements in Europe. And the first allied victory was the Greek victory against the Italians.

There are 3000 years of Greek history. A history of an ancient civilization, a history of great victories such as in Thermopylae, in the Battle of Apokoronas, in the Balkan wars and in WWI and WWII. Also, Alexander the Great conquered the entire Persian Empire and reached India. Greece is regarded as the cradle of western civilization and the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, sports, western literature, political science and drama including both tragedy and comedy. Also, Greece has a very long and remarkably rich history during which its culture has proven to be especially influential in Europe, Northern Africa and the Middle East. Today, Greece is a developed nation, member of the European Union since 1981 and a member of the Eurozone since 2001.

Now, what's your history? You were nomads who came from mongolia to Asia Minor because you were so useless and you couldn't pass the Chinese Wall. You slaughtered the entire population of Asia Minor and built an empire based on the blood of people you have conquered. Then, you were beaten by a bunch of Greek klephts. After that we started beating you all the time in the Balkan Wars and in WWI and the only reason you won the Greco-Turkish war 1919-1922 was because of the massive Soviet support. Then you exacted your revenge onto Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians of Asia Minor. You have broke every international law by waging the Istanbul pogrom and invading Cyprus. As for your culture, you didn't have a written language untill you took the alphabet from the Arabs. You also took your religion and in fact, your entire culture from the Arabs (even Baklava!). The truth is, you have no culture. Three genocides (Armenian, Assyrian and Pontian Greek) and now a fourth one against the Kurds, that's your culture. Mitsos 07:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I know, its difficult to accept being a nation of losers after belonging to the Ottoman empire for hundreds of years. Before that, your ancetors were indeed at one time a bastion of civilization but you greeks today have nothing to do with that glorious past whatsoever, today you are just a bunch of wanna be losers and I am sure that your ancestors must be turning in their graves as they are probably ashamed and embarassed by your sorry state. About being a member of the EU, you fail to mention that you are not only one of the poorest in terms of GDP per capita but also one of the largest receivers of EU money, which reflects on your general laziness but also on the fact that you are just a bunch of opportunists. As Thomas Friedman of the New York Times said recently, those people that dwell on their past glories and fail to turn the chapter and focuse ahead are the ones that will lost big time in this new world order. Your constant bickering is a testament to this backwardness and although I dont like to generlize, its something that can be applied to the majority of your country folk and those long bearded black robed fanatic racists! Get a life lutherian 10:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

And what does Turkey have? Huh? Greece is a nation of 10 Million people, a small nation, yet it's economic growth has been consistently above the EU average for the past 15 years, our position in terms of inflation and unemployment (more of a social problem than an economic one), may be problems but they are NOTHING compared to the past 15 years of Turkish political unrest, hyperinflation and mass unemployment in the Eastern areas, today, Greece ranks 30th in GDP per capita in the world, and it is rising with consistent 4+% growth rates. Turkey however, has a GDP per capita of $7,000, it is a peasant country propped up by a few large cities.

And what do you expect of a small nation of 10 million culturally? We have continued to produce great literature with the likes of Kazantzakis, Cavafis, Elytis and Seferis in our modern era - We have numerous inventors (even the Mini was invented by a Greek), we have numerous entrepreneurs not only at home but in our diaspora (in which Greeks consistently rank amongst the richest ethnic groups of their host countries), what do Turks do in their diasporas apart from those who deal heroin and smuggle polish girls to forcibly work as prostitutes with the help of their Albanian mafia chums? Think I'm wrong? Ask anyone, Greek, Kurdish, British or whatever who lives in London in close proximity to turks.

Turkey is not a nation, it constantly contradicts itself, it claims the Greeks have no genealogical links with the Ancient Greeks (despite Greece being the most ethnically homogenous country in the EU), yet they constantly trumpet their ludicrous claims about being 'descendants of atilla and genghis' (as if that is something to be proud of). They claim their nation is 'secular', yet it was built on the extermination and forcible removal of non-Muslim minorities, without the Armenian Genocide, the Pontian Greek genocide, the Assyrian Genocide, there would be no Turkey. Make no mistake, we have been around longer than you, and for the past 4000 years we have faced threats you can only imagine, as the priest in Kazantzakis' Greek Passion says to the other clergy 'We are Hellenes, we are invincible, we cannot die!' Deal with us Turk, we have been here 4000 years and we are going to be here long after you and your criminal, false nation have wasted into nothingness.

You talk like turkey is an advanced nation. Greece's situation today is due to the 400 years of turkish rule and not due to our lazyness. Despite that, Greece's GDP per capita is far bigger than turkey's. Your people are starving and you spent billions on military equipment. As George Horton said: The turkish race knows nothing than conquests and slaughters. It's not for you to say if the ancient Greeks were of weren't our ancestors. Btw, I don't give a shit about what this jewish bastard from New York Times said. And who you are refering as long bearded black robed fanatic racists? Mitsos 11:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

lol, you claim that greeks protected Jews from being deported and then you make a racist remark on a well respected columnist, showing our true colors are we? lutherian 16:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, i'm half Greek half Turkish so I think I can have a more fair view on the matter. Izmir had been under Turkish control for centuries. The "Big Idea" supported by Western powers was to recover all lands that once used to be Greek. The Big Idea had been around since 1821 (see Fereos' map of Magna Grecia, where Rigas Fereos claims that Sicely should be greek too). What Greeks can't understand is that Minor Asia was long lost to the Turks and that Byzantium never was a Greek Empire. It was an Eastern Roman Empire. So, literally Izmir hadn't been Greek since Greece was conquered by the Roman Empire. Turks did well to re-capture the city, the Greeks were invaders and that's just about it. I've heard that the Greek forces attacked Minor Asia to protect the greek population. So, should Greece now attack the USA to portect the American-Greek population? No.

It is sad to see people still in favour of the Big Idea, a plan supported by the West only to cause trouble in the Balkan area. Now, regarding the Great Fire of Izmir, there is no trusty account to tell us what happened. The idea that Turks might have caused it was ONLY supported by the American ambassador that was married to a greek woman, had converted to Orthodoxy and was away from Izmir the days the Fire had occured. The Armenians, being themselves, blamed the Turks with no proof and there you have it... It could even be the Greeks or Armenians that caused the fire.

ALSO, my friend, Greece hosted the most succesful Olympics in the history of the Olympic games. So please, don't go around saying Greece has done nothing. Greece might be a small country, but it proves every day of its existance as a nation, that it is a great nation. The Turkish nation is great too, but I can't let anyone say anything against Greece or Turkey.

sure, give me billions of euros above budget and I will also produce an impressive event like the olympic games. We live in the 21st century were everything can be outsourced so it all boils down to the amount of loot you got! lutherian 16:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

P.S.: I, too, don't like the Orthodox priests with their long beards and black robes. I used to have NIGHTMARES when I was little. I tried Catholicism but... I don't go around calling them long-beared, scary as hell,black-robed fraeky, theives...:P --89.210.11.229 15:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

LOL nor do I, I just mentioned it here with the hope of putting some sense into those nationalist fanatics above lutherian 16:22, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

okay, i read YET ANOTHER disturbing entry... Greece's lack of advancement is due to 400 years of Turkish rule? Okay, i'm sorry to say this put that is the MOST pathetic excuse i've EVER heard. If we could advance in our way we would. Also, you should be glad it was a civilised nation like Turkey that conquered us cause if we had someone MUCH WORSE on our backs, we would still be riding donkeys to work... --89.210.24.241 22:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

"a civilised nation like Turkey" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Turkey a civilized nation!!!!!! Who could be "MUCH WORSE" than the turko-mongols??? "I've heard that the Greek forces attacked Minor Asia to protect the greek population. So, should Greece now attack the USA to portect the American-Greek population'?" the American-Greek population isn't suffering like the Greek population of asia minor at the time. Mitsos 14:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

you dont have the slightest clue about history or maybe its just that you have a permanent brain freeze, but just to educate you a little, its a FACT that the Ottoman empire was arguably one of the most tolerant in terms of freedom of religion, that Armenians, Jews and yes, even Greeks, ascended to the highest of ranks within the government, that they opened the gates to all the persecuted Jews that were being burnt alive on wooden stakes by your religious freaks during the Spanish inquisition, that Ottoman rule over your sorry asses and all the other ethnic groups was super harmonious for over 400 years and that if there is a civilization that you inherited, it came directly from the Turks! Even after the empire crumbled and the republic was born the Turks showed far greater civility than any of you guys, just take WW2 as an example, whilst there was a slaughter fest going on in your beloved Europe, Turkish diplomats scattered around the various countries saved scores of Jews and the Turkish republic became a gateway for the persecuted Euro Jews to help them reach the land which was to become Israel. So please stop giving me that pathetic civilization excuse because there aint any from where you come. I may suggest though that you get out of your cave more often to see the real world, it can only do you good! lutherian 16:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, the Ottoman Empire needed an economic non-Muslim tax base to support their state, after the fall of constantinople and the centuries of ravaging Anatolia there was very little in the way of a stable population which was working and prospering, that is why they accepted the Jews, not because of any altruistic endeavour. As for The Hellenic Republic 'inheriting' Turkish Civilization, this is a pure joke, Turkish cultural appropriation of Byzantine and Arab Culture has been going on for YEARS, there are similarities between the two cultures now, yes, but this is because the Ottoman Empire was essentially a continuation of Byzantine Culture with a large Islamic influence, whereas Greek culture during the occupation was a continuation of Byzantine culture with it's Christian heart. You people will go to any lengths to appropriate culture that isn't yours, for example, as a Greek, I am man enough to admit that Baklava came to Byzantium by virtue of Assyrian culture (greek sailors brought it back to constantinople), Turks simply cannot admit this, for a turk to admit his 'civilization' was basically founded on the culture of a greek speaking civilization is anathema, ask a turk where the links are between pre-anatolian turkish culture and the formation of the Ottoman Empire --- He won't be able to find a thing! Just take a look at the blue mosque --> Appropriation of Byzantine Architecture and the architectural mathematics of Anthemius. Take a look at 'Turkish' baths, nothing more than a Islamic continuation of Byzantine baths, take a look at The Ottoman system of Government and it's Civil Service ---> nothing more than a continuation of Romano-Byzantine Government.

What do you mean Greek Americans don't suffer?!? They have to eat junk food all day long, drink loads of coffee and tolerate a rate of 60% on obesity!!! These people suffer!! :P

LOL and I may add that they have to put up with an idiot for a president, LOL lutherian 05:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Even after the empire crumbled and the republic was born the Turks showed far greater civility than any of you guys yeah, the istanbul pogrom is an example of your civility. In WWII you played double game and you had a pact with the nazis. Mitsos 14:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

listen, if you enjoy bathing in falacies, thats your perogative but please spare us from your sensless remarks unless you enjoy being ridiculed, I see that you are a passionate nationalist and you are indeed free to be whatever you want and since this discussion is obviously going nowhere, I suggest we call it quits and move along! Capiche? lutherian 15:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

And why you keep telling me about WWII and the Jews? As I said, in WWII you were afraid to oppose the nazis and you had a pact of neutrality with Germany. And why do you think I care more about what you did to the jewish refugees than the Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians and Kurds of Asia Minor who were exterminated by your "civilized" nation? Mitsos 09:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

actually its called being smart, the Turks learned their lesson in WWI so they opted for neutrality in WWII. You could argue that the Swiss were afraid throughout history by opting for neutrality in practically every war whilst I would argue that they played smart by allowing all the antagonists to stash their loot in their country and watch them fight it out. The question you should be asking yourself is why did Turks massacre scores of Armenians and Greeks and not Jews or any of the other minorities? Could it be an act of self defence? retaliation? tit for tat? or did they just wake up one morning and think it was a great day to go on a rampage? I think its the former, you think what you want but please stop cussing! lutherian 17:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I 'm glad to see that you 've run out of arguments and you don't want the discussion to be continued. I respect that. Now let's talk about the article. Mitsos 09:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

believe me when I say that I have not run out of arguments, im just tired of running around in circles! lutherian 17:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

And something else, "I, too, don't like the Orthodox priests with their long beards and black robes. I used to have NIGHTMARES when I was little." well, I used to have nightmares when I was little too. I was dreaming that the muslim priest is gonna come and cut my dick. What a civilized religion!!!! Mitsos 09:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, im a bit confused, do you want to continue provoking or you want to move on? And FYI, recent studies show that circumcision cuts STD's by up to 60%, I think thats pretty amazing!lutherian 15:01, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Haha, if there is one thing the Turks should not bring up it's religion, the Greek Orthodox Church has a proud history of rejecting both forms of holy warfare (Jihad and Crusade) as despicable. Of course, I doubt Lutherian will find it 'scary' that the prophet mohammed engaged in sexual intercourse with a 9 year old.

OK, I know this conversation is above your level, but this is an encyclopedia forum, please no need for swearing. Also, i think it was your Church that had said that they prefer a Turkish turban ruling over Constantinople more than having the papal tiara in union with their "so-called orthodox church". So, yeah, you considered union with the Church of Rome worse than Turkish control. And you know what they say... Becareful what you wish for...

--89.210.58.81 19:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Doucas Notaras' views (the man who made that quote) was an elite, he was a member of the nobility, do you think his views are applicable to all Byzantines?

To the person who says the Byzantine Empire was not Greek. Are you that ignorant? The Byzantine Empire was Greek! At the time it was known as "The Empire of the Greeks" They spoke Greek and were Eastern Orthodox. Also, do not call the Greeks collaborators. It is a bit offensive after the brave resistance they put up against Fascism. Lutherian, by the way, is the one who started this fire. It is obvious that is why he is on wikipedia-to just deride Greeks in the most biased way possible. By the way Greece beat Turkey in the World Basketball Championship. Haha. 66.53.108.59 21:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Not at all, I am not here to tarnish the image of the greeks, Im here to take out all those narrow minded nationalist freaks who get a hard on when someone mentions greece. I said earlier that greece (I am referring to ancient and even Byzantine greece) contributed tremendously to western civilization and I am sure that the Ottomans inherited a lot of this culture too. But to go on from this and state that Turks are barbarians or that they did not contribute an iota to civilization is really stretching it and it clearly smells foul play! It takes organization, strategy and a lot of wisdom to rule over so many different ethnical groups over more than 400 years in perfect harmony! The Jews obviously werent invited for their blue eyes, but the Sultan of the time was a visionary, he knew that importing new blood/talent could only bolster the empire. I doubt that you are aware that during WWII the Japanese, inspired by the ottomans, had a plan to send persecuted European Jews to colonize occupied Manchuria (Manchkuo) and to turn the region into a model economic power. They were to lose the war before the plan could be executed. lutherian 06:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Turks themselves, as a race, have contributed very little to civilization. Islamized Greeks and even Christian Greeks and Armenians contributed everything, read George Horton's 'Blight of Asia' and you will see. Oh, and claiming they all lived in 'perfect harmony' is just a plain lie, and you know it is - The Ottoman Empire was not like the Roman Empire, a civilization not based on ethnicity but on citizenship which could be gained by anyone from Palestine to Northern Britain, it was a shambling edifice of an Empire, not ruled by law (as with the Byzantine's brilliant advances in law), but by fear and subjugation via Shariah Law.

Congrats anon, spoken like a true racist, suggesting that the degree of contribution to "civilization" is embedded in ones DNA and quoting fellow racists to support your claims lutherian 06:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Ignore him, these idiots never come over to the Byzantine Empire page precisely because their arguments don't hold water - their argument is thus: "Byzantines referred to themselves as Romans 'Romioi' ergo they were not Greeks" - Yep, like all your 'Turkic' civilizations referred to themselves as 'Turks' right? I doubt it very, very much. The simple fact is the term 'Roman' had become a synonym for the word 'Greek' by the 6th century AD precisely because the word 'Hellene' had become synonomous with Paganism, and, at a time when most ethnic Greeks had converted to Christianity. One can be an ethnic Greek and a Roman, in much the same way one can be an ethnic German and a European as well. Marcellinus referred to himself a 'roman and a greek' for example.

pls stop blowing hot air, your rethoric are no match to my arguments lutherian 06:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I stand in awe of your 'arguments', of course, the fact you choose to consider Historical fact rhetoric is kind of wierd but your 'rebuttal' (if we can classify it as such), is nothing more than an ad hominem attack. :D

I think its time you climb back into your cave, its getting dark lutherian 06:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

No my nationalist friend, it is YOU who lives in the cave, a metaphorical cave of ignorance. Nationalism is the last resort of the loser, the uneducated loner who no one likes - He has nothing in the way of wealth, personal fulfilment or a family so he parrots the official line of his country's many demagogues (and turkey has many), isn't it funny that there are so many Turkish nationalists? I wonder what this tells you about not only the mental state of the people but of their own achievements. I go to an excellent University, my father owns a successful business and my family is secure, I have no need to be a nationalist, but losers like you do. Get back to that cave of ignorance.

The fact that you remain an anon and your need to mention attending an "excellent" university and that your father owns a successful business shows what a pathetic frustrated fellow you are. It is in fact you who is a hard core nationalist and a racist, desperate in distorting history to give way more credit to your people than they deserve! I am not going to lower myself and advertise my credentials like you do suffice it to say that you are dead wrong about me! lutherian 05:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, Turks, the eternal islamic triumphalists, as Ali Sina says, Muslims, and more specifically Turks, will puff out their chests and claim victory even when clearly in defeat. Keep parrotting that ad-hominem. Oh, and I give to my people the credit they are due, Greeks have had many great civilizations, from pre-history to modern times. Turks on the other hand, as one Bulgarian friend once told me, claim that every single asian who migrated to Europe during late antiquity and the middle ages was a turk. Only the Turks could be proud of 'heroes' like Atilla and Genghis, give me the brilliance of Plato and Gemistos over those barbarian thugs any day of the week.

Of course nationalism has nothing to do with selfish assholes like you who are happy with the daddy's money and don't give a shit about the problems of their country and their people. I 'm not rich but I 'm also not selfish. I want the best for my country and my people and I don't like the fact that my university is full of commies and anarchists. I 'm a Greek Nationalist and I 'm Proud of it. Mitsos 09:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Well said Mitsos, at least you admit that you are a nationalist and I respect that unlike others who have major complexes and an urge to boast that they have it all and therefore feel superior from the rest! lutherian 11:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It depends what 'nationalism' you are talking about, some nationalism is dangerous - narrow nationalism of the british for example. But some nationalism is good, if you are proud of your country's culture, it's intellectuals, it's achievements relevant to sciences and mathematics and philosophy and things like this. But don't stoop down to the level of the turk, he has nothing other than an islamic bastardization of Byzantine culture (everything from 'Turkish' dance to 'Turkish' architecture is Byzantine in origin), and therefore metamorphises his inferiority complex into a cock-waving contest about wars and savagery. We are better than the Turks, we do not deny mass-genocide or consider expelling hundreds of thousands from their homes (constantinople pogrom) proud moments in our history, we are better than these people, dont bring yourself down to their pathetic level of being proud of war because they have absolutely nothing else to be proud of. And I'm a capitalist Mitsos, not a communist. And I'm not selfish either, if you knew about me and the amount of work and money my family has put into supporting the Greek diaspora you would know this, so don't jump to conclusions.

What you are in fact is a hard core racist your superiority complex and your obession with Turkey makes that very clear. I would also add that like some of your fellow countrymen, you are a very bad loser, cant get over the fact that modern day greece was an Ottoman province for centuries, that Turks crushed you in every battle and that they left such a powerful impression on you that even today you cant get over it! Today most of your European colleauges despise you and your cypriot parrot sidekicks for constantly creating headaches for them, for robbing the coffers and even going as far as lying about your deficit to rob them more! This is why I have been suggesting that you go back to your dark and humid cave where you can continue to lament on your pathetic existance lutherian 05:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Turks always claim racism, as do most Muslims, it is their only line of defence when confronted with irrefutable facts. It's quite funny however, that you take the British view as the view of the European Union, most European states (as in the elites - politicians), are looking for ANY excuse to get rid of Turkey from accession negotiations, Austria, France, Germany, Spain and so on - These countries simply do not want Turkey in the European Union, and thus they will use Cyprus as an excuse to stall the process, but this is nothing to worry about from my perspective, in fact it's a good thing that Turkey will finally turn East and turn into an Islamist state (the very blackmail Erdogan and barbarian Gul use against the EU). I have lived in the UK all my life as a Greek Cypriot, for 18 years, I have NEVER experienced ANY racism whatsoever, the Government may like Turkey, but most British people, along with most Europeans in general, couldn't care less about impotent Turkey, it's veiled threats and it's poverty stricken populace. Again, I advise you to reconsider saying that Greeks are 'despised', believe me my barbaric friend, Turks are hated in Europe - Ask any European what he thinks of a Turk and the answer will probably be the same as if you asked him about an Albanian, that he is nothing more than a heroin dealer or a people trafficker.

Cypriot? you mean second class Greek citizen because thats what many Greeks consider you as. Your insect of a country is no match to the Turkish powerhouse, you would probably collapse if Turkey were to sneeze, foreign tourism is the only thing that keeps you afloat. I agree with you though that Turkey has no business in the European club, heck they arent even European (thank God for that!) but I can very well see a decade or two from now your beloved Europeans lining up in queues, looking for a job in Turkey whilst your sorry ass European Union disintigrates economically as its soaring deficits resulting from the ageing population takes its toll. And then we will see who will be knocking on whos door. The Turks are much better off out of the EU but you and your selfish/retarded self cannot grasp this concept, at least not yet. lutherian 09:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, 'The Kurdish Republic of South-East Turkey' has a nice ring to it don't you think? :D :D :D :D

Gee Anon, I see you are chock full of retarded comments? Thats what makes you a douche bag, right? lutherian 09:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I 'm proud of being Greek and as I said I want the best for my nation. I want to take Cyprus back, but I have no dreams about a Greek empire and I don't want the Greek way of life to be imposed on other nations. I respect all the other nations. I agree in everything you said about the turks and that we are better than them. Btw, capitalism is as worse as communism and I 'm anti-capitalist as well as anti-communist. Mitsos 14:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

And I want to take greece back, it was so much better that way lutherian 05:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Believe me my friend, Cyprus is going to become a unified nation pretty soon, and not on the Turks grounds, because, as much as the Islamic triumphalist Turks like to claim in their eternal delusion that the pseudostate will be recognized, Tassos pulled off an incredible feat by engineering the free areas to become an EU member while the occupied areas languished in their economic impoverishment, we hold all the cards now, and as much as Turkey wants to whine about it, either they turn East with all their 'advanced' neighbours (Saudi Arabia, Yemen et al), or they recognize Cyprus as part of accession talks. Rehn (EU enlargement commissioner) has claimed this is necessary for membership.

yeah, in your wildest dreams, the truth of the matter is that the Europeans are seriously having second thoughts of allowing southern cyprus (because thats what it is) join the EU. They are really getting fed up of your constant moaning and bitching. Furthermore, Turkey will never become part of the EU so I dont understand where you get the idea that the north will join the south!!! Dumb ass lutherian 09:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, don't you find it funny that a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism such as Turkey has the audacity to call the EU a 'Christian Club'?~

oh yeah, wasnt it Turkey that was recognizd as invaluable ally during the cold war? that is one of the founding members of NATO, that was among the first countries to introduce emancipation for women way before many in the EU today (not to mention you sorry ass cypriots), that had a woman prime minister (I know such things are science ficition for you), that was the first country to recognize the state of Isreal (yep, even before the US did), and the list goes on and on. So keep your primitive and biased views to your insignificant self. Beggers cant be choosers, thats a term that applies incredibly well to you and your kind. Oh and before I forget, Valery Giscard d'Estaing made clear in the European constitution that christianity is one of the core characteristics of being European so please help me understand where is the contradiction of calling it a christian club? Dumb ass! lutherian 09:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Just an advice, Lutherian (though u are obviously not a Lutherian): u have made a lot of personal attacks, and u know u are not a newbie anymore... chease further WP:PA, or u'll get blocked. Oh, and something else: there is nothing easier than nationalistic rhetoric. it would be rather funny for me to list some thousands of the things that Greece and Greeks have offered to the world, but i am bored in getting on this right now... --Hectorian 13:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: the section just above this one

Another fine example of editors with conflicting notions working together on a talk page to solve their differences and improve the quality of an article for any potential readers, isn't it? Long live reasoned debate. —Saposcat 14:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the section above turned out to be a forum (seems like Stormfront...), and not an attempt to improvea wikipedia article. In fact, what is editted there, hardly has to do anything with the specific article. --Hectorian 14:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)