Talk:Great Auk

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Great Auk is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images.

	Biology Portal Great Auk is part of WikiProject Birds, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative and easy-to-use ornithological resource. If you would like to participate, visit the project page. Please do not substitute this template.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.
WikiProject Birds To-do: edit MAJOR taxonomic overhaul (see here) Create Galloanserae For new cat: Category:Natural history of the Americas, replace "Hummingbird" article (by Some collaboration, hopefully) an article: along title LINE of: Hummingbirds--the bird of the Americas

Contents 1 Classification 2 etymology again 3 Morbid curiosity 4 Ketilsson the egg-murderer 5 Pictures 6 If only ... 7 Symbolic status 8 Fate Of The Last 9 Related to south pole bretheren? 10 Royal Ontario Spoof/Myth 11 extinction date

[edit] Classification

I've seen several references that put the Great Auk in the Laridae family of the Ciconiiformes. Any thoughts? - UtherSRG 15:42, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Only Sibley-Ahlquist taxonomy as adopted by the AOU goes for this radical scheme, the rest of the world uses Charadriiformes. Surely it should be Alcidae rather than the gulls, Laridae, anyway? jimfbleak 17:32, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I see about twice as many lisings as Alcidae than for Laridae, and the family issue was more of my concern than the old S-A tax. - UtherSRG 17:41, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)~

Some confusion might have arisen from the fact that all Auks are now placed in the Lari suborder. Family's still Alcidae tho. Will add to the evolution section of Auks on that. Dysmorodrepanis 22:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

---

I've seen the spelling "Great Aux" in use. Google image search, at the time of writing, actually lists images corresponding to those it produces when queried for "Great Auk". Three of them, actually. I tend to think that this is a typo - Google doesn't otherwise recognise the phrase - but was wandering whether anybody else has anything to say on the subject. -Itai 21:36, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] etymology again

An alternative theory suggests that the word penguin comes from the Latin pinguis meaning "fat", referring to the plump appearance of the bird.

Which bird: the great auk or 'the' penguin? This is unclear on the penguin page as well. --Townmouse 19:30, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Great Auk, in Welsh pen gwyn, 'white head' (referring to the prominent white patch on the head which distinguishes it from other auks), was the original bird to which the name "penguin" applied; this use was first recorded in 1536 in respect of islands off Newfoundland. Later, when explorers discovered similar-looking birds in the southern hemisphere, the name was applied to them as well. An alternative theory suggested by John Latham in 1785, now considered a learned folk-etymology, suggests that the word penguin comes from the Latin pinguis meaning "fat".

IMO the edits to the above para introduce several errors of fact and logic:

1. "Pen gwyn" is not the Welsh for Great Auk (carfil mawr). It's the Welsh for "white head".

2. The "white head" etymology is dubious and far from universally accepted. It's worth mentioning as a theory, no more. The "accepted" line is that the etymology is obscure (i.e. no-one knows really).

3. A white patch on the head is not the same as a white head. As the picture clearly shows, it looks more like a white eye. Are there any other birds called "xyz head" that only have a patch of xyz colour on the head? I don't know.

4. The Great Auk is not the only auk to have a white marking on the head. The puffin has much more white on the head. The Great Auk must be one of the most distinctive birds in the world (huge size, flightless), and hardly needed any distinguishing from other auks.

5. What's a "learned folk-etymology"? Sounds like an oxymoron. Folk-etymology is when, out of ignorance, someone distorts an unfamiliar word to make it sound like a familiar one ("ashfelt" for asphalt, etc). It doesn't just mean an erroneous etymology.

It would be good to see some documentary evidence, both for the "pen gwyn" theory and against the "pinguis" one. Otherwise I respectfully suggest MPF's changes should be reverted, since the only improvement they seem to offer is the author and date of the "pinguis" theory (John Latham in 1785). Flapdragon 22:44, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The "pen gwyn" theory is straight from the OED etymology for "penguin". Prob. < Welsh pen gwyn white head (< pen head, headland (see PEN n.1) + gwyn white: see GWYNIAD n.) ... The attribution of the name penguin to ‘the Welsh men’ (cf. quot. 1577 at sense 1a), and its explanation as Welsh pen gwyn white head, appears also in Ingram's Narrative, and later in Sir Thomas Herbert's Travels (in the edition of 1634 as a surmise, and in the edition of 1638 as an accepted fact).

It mentions the "pinguis" theory as a footnote: An alternative derivation of the name < classical Latin pinguis fat (see PINGUID a.) or an early association with this word is therefore possible and may be supported by the relative frequency of forms in pin- in most languages from an early date.

Regardless, doesn't any information on the etymology of "penguin" belong at penguin, rather than here? Vashti 14:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the John Latham pinguis theory is superfluous here, but in context the penguin etymology does seem relevant, since (if you believe the theory) it's the "white head" of the auk not the penguin that is the origin of the name. Incidentally I'm surprised OED puts it as strong as "prob[bably]" since by their own account it's no more than surmise and hearsay. Flapdragon 15:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have a reference for John Latham? I assume it's from his Index Ornithologicus. The OED does have a 1678 source for the theory: 1678 J. RAY tr. F. Willughby Ornithol. 322 The Birds of this kind..the Hollanders from their fatness called Penguins. ImmortalWombat 13:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Morbid curiosity

How (and why) was the last pair killed? Looks like there's probably documentary evidence of it since the date is known. Tempshill 16:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

The last great auks were killed to be mounted as collectors' specimens. They looked impressive in a glass case (though not as impressive as in real life, I daresay) and their increasing rarity made them ever more collectable. Since they couldn't fly or run fast they were easy to kill with a club. The story goes that the last one killed in Britain (on St Kilda in 1840) was clubbed to death because it was thought to be a witch. I don't know if it's true but it seems sadly credible. Flapdragon 10:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I heard this story too, that the last great auks were killed to be mounted as collectors' specimens. Is there a reference to it somewhere?Kuifjeenbobbie 14:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The last pair were strangled to death. Their skins were sold, and their current whereabouts are unknown. Their internal organs remain, preserved in alcohol at the University of CopenhagenMHDIV ɪŋglɪʃnɜː(r)d(Suggestion?|wanna chat?) 13:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ketilsson the egg-murderer

On the 3rd of June 1844 off the coast of Iceland, three fishermen discovered the last two living Great Auks. They were a breeding pair with a single egg. Jon Brandsson and Sigourer Iselffson clubbed the adult birds to death, while Ketil Ketilsson smashed the egg with his boot.

Reverted this copyvio morsel with its unlikely-sounding and unattributed detail contradicted on other websites. Flapdragon 00:52, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

The recently added photographs by user messybeast are incredibly good. I have put them in a wiki table.Snowman 17:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] If only ...

If only DNA from museum secimens could be analysed and used to reconstruct live birds. Perhaps some tissue samples could be deep frozen to prevent further deterioriation of the DNA ready for when DNA biology is more advanced.Snowman 08:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The prospects of ever cloning an organism from museum specimens prepared in the conventional manner (dried skin) are vanishingly small. My understanding is that the DNA is almost completely degraded after death. DNA can be recovered, but it is mostly mitochondrial DNA, a tiny fraction of the genome, and not the genomic DNA, which codes for most of the characteristics of the organism. It is hard to find good discussions of this on the Internet--this article discusses a recent study of Cave Bear DNA. The investigators were able to recover about 6% of the animal's DNA--enough to understand its relationships to livng bears, but not nearly enough to attempt a reconstruction of the animal, even if such technology were available--it is not, currently. (Current efforts to clone extinct animals have been based on fresh-frozen tissue, or tissue preserved in alcohol, not dried skins. These efforts have not been successful to date.) See also Talk:Passenger Pigeon for a brief discussion. I feel the whole discussion of cloning the Great Auk or any other extinct animal is speculative, and does not belong in Wikipedia articles discussing the biology of a species. Perhaps there should be a separate article on Cloning extinct species. This is discussed, briefly, in Cloning, but there needs to be a more thorough presentation of the dificulties. --Cotinis 14:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand that the cost of sequencing DNA halves every 2.7 years, so what will be possible after 50 years (or longer) is not easy to predict today. Increased DNA sequencing capacity can be extrapolated into the future because of the predictable past increase. This is a bit like Moore's law for computer speed. If 6% can be recovered now, then I feel, that it is likely that 100% will be recovered with advanced technology in the future. There would be millions of skin cells in each great auk specimen and each cell contained a whole DNA genone originally. Increased DNA sequencing capacity would allow many more cells to be squenced - perhaps the DNA (however small the total DNA from each skin cell) can be sequenced from 1000s or 10,000s of skin cells individually and the genone sequence pieced together. This is a very complex tast, by todays methods, but what if DNA sequencing is 1000 or 10,000 times cheeper than today and computers are very much quicker too. There are many great auk egg specimens, but I am not sure what is inside them. I understand that there are two specimens of great auk viscera. Futureology is a respected science and should be featured in an encyclopedia, I feel, as long as the speculation is justifiable. Snowman 19:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting ideas--I hope you are proven correct in the future. As a former research biologist (dabbled a bit in molecular biology), I am not so optimistic. The big problem is that there are enzymes inside every cell that degrade DNA and proteins. These enzymes are released on death of each and every cell, and virtually instantly degrade much of the genetic information. Furthermore, certain DNA sequences may be more easily degraded, meaning that the same areas will be degraded in every cell--the information will be gone in all cases. It may do no good to be able to sequence DNA very rapidly if the sequences are gone. In addition, nobody has any idea, at present (that I know of), how to reassemble the chromosomal structure from DNA sequences. All cloning efforts of vertebrates so far have been working with intact cells, including the chromosomes and associated proteins.

How do you differentiate futureology from speculation? Do you have verifiable references for these ideas? If so, they are fine in an article, but again, I'd say that such ideas belong in a separate article, or part of an article. Otherwise one will have this discussion for each extinct species. I just don't feel it belongs in individual species accounts until the stage when it has actually been applied to a particular species. Thanks for listening. --Cotinis 12:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I respect your edits. A good idea to have a separate page about this sort of cloning. A new page for these topics would be a focus for editors to form a balanced article. Snowman 12:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to suggest any changes right now. I feel the article really needs some work in terms of describing the basic biology of the species and what is known about it, and a good set of references. I have a couple of good printed references on the Great Auk, and this one is on my "to do" list for some major additions. I guess the etiquette is to post a major revision to the talk page first. (I'm fairly new to Wikipedia.) You'll see that when if and when it happens. Best wishes, --Cotinis 16:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Symbolic status

The Greak Auk has become a symbol of Man's inconsideration to animals and the importance of biodiversity.

Has it? How so? The dodo and the quagga are symbols of man-made extinction but most people have never heard of the great auk. What does it tell us about the importance of biodiversity? Removed this unsupported assertion till it can be put into a more encyclopaedic form. Flapdragon 19:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fate Of The Last

I've heard about the story of the the last two: "They were incubating an egg, and tried to escape when they saw the sailors. One was caught on land, but the other managed to escape to the sea. Even so, it got briefly stuck between rocks, and was captured as it struggled free. Both were killed via clubbing. The egg was smashed under some guy's boot." Is this true? Dora Nichov 07:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Urban myth, I think. Snalwibma 14:58, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

See above. Flapdragon 14:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Related to south pole bretheren?

Are Great Auks Penguins in the same sense as Southern Hemisphere Penguins, are they related? OR are they both called penguins but due to appearance? Either way the article should speculate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.142.68.229 (talk) 02:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

No, auks and penguins are different, though they're both seabirds. Dora Nichov 12:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

And the article does already "speculate" on the name-link between great auk and penguin, as suggested by the anonymous contributor. Maybe it would be a good idea to read the article before asking a question which is answered within it! Snalwibma 14:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Royal Ontario Spoof/Myth

A specimen skin of The Great Auk has been kept in a safe, along with a skin of the also extinct labrador Duck, at the ROM. (Royal Ontario Museum)in Toronto. Both specimens have been in the safe for so long now that any individual who had the combination to the safe have long since passed. At present, no one knows the condition of the skins as the safe has not been opened in more than 80 years. 66.207.199.34 20:37, 2 February 2007

A likely story. Flapdragon 13:44, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] extinction date

can we have some backing up that the date is correct. An article fom NS puts the date as the 2nd of June 1884. MHDIV ɪŋglɪʃnɜː(r)d(Suggestion?|wanna chat?) 13:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)