Talk:Government

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Contents 1 the role of government 2 suggested tweak of definition 3 Recent changes 4 Changes 5 Definitions 6 Civil vs. Other governments 7 Bologna 8 definition 9 Forms of Government section 10 Government or The State 11 Anarchy included in forms of government 12 Etymology 13 Confidence and supply 14 Montesquieu 15 "OK this article is really a mess" (relocated from top of page) 16 Computer Game "Sid Meier's Civilization III and IV"

[edit] the role of government

according to all economic theory government's only purpose is to deal with market failure. i think someone should add a short paragraph on gov's attempt to fix market failure and how sometimes gov failure accures because of lack of perfect information--GregLoutsenko 29 June 2005 00:48 (UTC)

[edit] suggested tweak of definition

organization that has the power to make and enforce laws for a certain territory or people

consider corporate government or governance of a non-profit organization. how about a nomadic culture?

Fundamentally, government exists as a reflection of the will of "the people"; generally meaning it is an organization established by a majority of those seeking to be governed (to have rules & regulations established as the people need and to have the "government" administer those laws for the benefit of the people. Unfortunately this has evolved into government existing for itself and controlling the populace). Usually this happens within a well defined geographic area although the UN was an attempt to create a global government.

NB - Where something exists and has possessions, it has an owner. As with a non-profit association or a club or a mutual life insurance company, government is beneficially owned by those it governs. Food for thought when a government is formed by those using the "first past the post system" rather than by winning a majority of the votes. Also gives one pause when contemplating corruption and vote-buying by government (see the Gomery Inquiry in Canada).

Wishful thinking - legally define government as a trustee existing to serve the electorate and provide legal liability to politicians, bureaucrats and government employees/contractors for their actions. Require them to be every bit as responsible and liable as an officer or director of a public company or any other trustee of public funds. When you consider Enron and Worldcom and the responsibility being forced upon many officers of those companies, you need to remember that the funds they administered were volunarily turned over to them by shareholders and bond holders. Taxpayers are forced to turn funds over to governments so perhaps they should be held to an even higher standard.

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needs to include the history of government

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Original North American aboriginal governance was supported by cultural solidarity. A chain of trust secured a 'House' with True Authority. A House was responsible for its members. If a member committed a wrong to a member of another House, Houses, represented by House Chiefs through circle sentencing with the wronged and the wronged doer, restored justice. Dispersed cultures dispersed as population saturation demanded it. They were happy and characterise by reason and tolerence. They were free until economic ties culturally decimated 'True Liberty, replacing 'True Authority with economic authority. The ensuing material disparity proved carcinogenic. Wars were inevitable.

According to John Lock, in the state of nature all people were equal and independent and none had a right to harm another's life, health, liberty, or possesions; but war, the most insidious crime against humanity, is culture dependent; various factions and coalitions vying for whatever they can have provided fertile soil for striving economically, but modern merging cultures are biased. They have yet to re-develop beyond the principles of capitalism, which are not synonomous with those of democracy.

The most basic principle of capitalism is exploitation within an economic system concerning private interests. The most basic principle of democracy is virtue within a cooperative government system concerning public freedom.

Public freedom is dependent upon governing private interests; but governing the governed reflectively so as not to re-dramatize man's inhumanity to man is taking time to effect change because as Montesquie said, the person(s) entrusted with the execution of democracy must be sensible of being himself subject to its direction.

Representatives of a Republic must be elected by people who understand that food, shelter, transportation, and communication are the limits of human commonality, the purpose of government,and the limitation of government. These natural rights to life are fundamental to consent of the governed given to government. Beyond this most common precondition for liberty is just that: liberty.

 --Some may declare, communism; but the most basic principle of communism is federalization within a controlled government system purporting to concern itself with the common good.  Its power structure is top down rather than bottom up.--

Natural rights to life must needs be the focus of government. Otherwise, a contentious political quagmire of corportate/ego-centric/ethnocentrism reiterates Machiavelli, "Least happy is the (world) whose institutions are intirely off the path that leads to a right and perfect end. But the republic for which the US flag stands is not a done deal. It is the means of working towards a right and perfect end, to answer the prayer "Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven," to form a perfect union: a new paridigm politik.

A choherent a collective cultural basis of justice, tranquility, commonality, and well-bing that is reasonable, right, and natural for the security of liberty requires government, but as Thomas Jefferson said, "That government is best which governs the least, because its people dicipline themselves."

The history of government ends with the American revolution because, in America, we the people have yet to perfectively form a union. History, we the people must avoid. The founders of the Unites States gave Americans the responsiblity of page turning, starting a new chapter: A Republican Form of Government Subject to a Constitutional Ordinance of PAurpose.

The republican form of government, that governs the republic for which the US flag stands, is the American experiment. It is a process that needs not party members, but republicans to exersice democratic responsiblity though education, participation and contribution. Think abourt it! If justice, domestic tranquility, common defense, and general welfare secured to people and posterity can be conceptualized, you can give your consent to perfectively establish objectivity supported by veracity, communicate on a domestic level so as to ensure peacefull coexistence, provide the principles of immovable force, promote the equality of well-being, and secure authority and culture together with solidarity of purpose for future generations.

The rear view mirror of history shows where the future is not, but as we look to the future humankind must needs be guided by something: the preamble of the US Constitution.

[edit] Recent changes

The recent large change to the page by User:Ace Diamond loses a fair amount of nuance and makes a number of controversial claims. I've reverted. Discuss here. Christopher Parham (talk) 02:52, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

Man that didn't take long.

This whole article (before the changes)seems to me to be a rambling, disjointed discussion all by itself. It contains few citations (admittedly a flaw in the new article but that can be fixed). I just wanted to provide a description of what a government is and does.

So, let us discuss

Ace Diamond 02:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, I think the current layout is broadly alright (though like most articles here it needs rewriting in a lot of places). The article currently attempts to answer a few basic questions:

• What government is -- the definitions and forms section
• Why governments exist -- the section labelled "theories" (this is a vague title)
• What governments do -- the "operations" section, again a vague title

The last little section could well be incorporated somewhere else. Those three questions are certainly things that should be covered; other issues that should be addressed but aren't include the history and development of government.

The main reason I reverted your edit, though was that it made a number of broad generalizations that would certainly be highly controversial (e.g. "All effective governments possess two attributes, authority and legitimacy." -- it would be hard to get agreement even on what "effective" means in that context). I don't know if that's a good way to begin a reorganization. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

All right, I hate admit it but you make good points. I'll rewrite and address your concerns. As to the issue of broadness, though, I think that an article that concerns itself with the broad notion of government should take a broad perspective and then point to more focused articles to provide nuance

Ace Diamond 03:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definitions

May I know why was the section for elaborating the different meanings of the word government entirely removed? Thanks. The removal has made the commonwealth usage of the word disregarded. — Instantnood 15:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

• See the sections immediately above for some related discussion on an earlier, similar change. The existing definitions section was admittedly a bit poorly organized, but my concerns above still apply. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:40, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I have to note that the section in question is so poorly written that I felt it needed to be replaced. What does:

One approach is to define government as the dominant(on top) better decision-making arm of the state, and define the latter on the basis of the control it has over violence and the use of force within its territory.

mean? If someone wants to rewrite the section and put it back, I have no objection.Ace Diamond 02:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Previously the #Definitions section clearly stated that, the word Government in Commonwealth usage may also mean the executive branch of government. The message has completely perished. — Instantnood 20:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

OK Ace Diamond 15:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. The second question is, is this only commonwealth usage? The term head of government always refers to the head of the executive branch. — Instantnood 19:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Civil vs. Other governments

I have a fear that this article will fall into a trap that trips up many political aricles. This should be a broad piece that defines and describes government in its least specific sense.

Everyone within a state is governed by a sort of a macro-government, the Civil government. You might call this being governed from without.

Academic, eclesiastical, artistic, and commercial organizations are all "governed" from within, in the sense that they all have governing bodies that make and enforce internal rules and policies.

Too much concentration on civil government masks the similarities between civil governance and other venues for governance. For that reason I would prefer to leave the secondary definition alone for now. Ace Diamond 21:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bologna

One approach is to define government as the decision-making arm of the state, and define the latter on the basis of the control it has over violence and the use of force within its territory. Specifically, the state (and by extension the government) has been considered by some to be the entity that holds a monopoly on the legitimate use of force within a territory.

Who takes this approach? Not Weber, who recognized that the legistative function is but a fraction of the role of government. In fact Politics as a Vocation concentrated on the executive. Moreover, almost any discussion of a particular government refers to the executive (see the introductory paragraph s of this very article.

I would love to see some citation that states that governments are the decision making arm of the state as I could find none. Ace Diamond 23:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] definition

A government is a group of people who perform the following functions:

(1) nominate office holders,

(2) elect office holders,

(3) make laws or rules,

(4) execute laws or rules,

(5) judge breaches of laws.

These functions may reside in one person, a group, or with all the people collectively. Or these function can be divided in various ways.

A government does not nominate or elect office holders. And it never resides in a single person. Governments are not limited to civil administrations but exist in any institution that regulate or administer.Ace Diamond 02:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Forms of Government section

While doing some rewording to eliminate redlink references, I noticed the existing "Forms of Government" section text:

The lines between some of the above forms of government can sometimes be ambiguous. For example, during the 19th century, most self-proclaimed "democracies" restricted voting rights to a minority of the population (e.g. property-owning males). This could qualify them as oligarchies rather than democracies^{[citation needed]}. On the other hand, the voting minority was often quite large (20-30% of the population) and its members did not form the compact group with common interests that is the hallmark of most oligarchies. Thus, this form of government occupied a space between democracy and oligarchy as they are understood today.

I added the citation tag, although it probably isn't exactly a citation that is need. I wasn't sure exactly what countries the author might have been referring to with the "self-proclaimed 19th century democracies" wording, but given the oligarchy article I'm not sure that it is obvious that, say, early America was an oligarchy, even with a limited franchise. Of course it could be argued that it was, or effectively was, but since this is supposed to be a summary of the main article forms of government, is it really necessary to go into unsubstantiated detail, especially since it is halfway retracted in the next sentence? Couldn't this entire paragraph be replaced with some sort of "lines are blurry, for instance between an oligarchy and a democracy with limited suffrage and/or other concentrations of wealth [or whatever]" type of phrasing? - David Oberst 09:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Government or The State

A distinction needs to be made between "government" and "The State". The former is simply the question "Who (a person) may coerce whom to do x?" The latter is the invention of Machiavelli, and is a machine, not a person. The former has been always with us; the latter starts in the 17th Century, and becomes independent of its operator with the French Revolution. July 2006 - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.71.118.255 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Anarchy included in forms of government

Under forms of government was this statement: Anarchy is characterised by the absence of a government and therefore does not constitute a form of government. If it doesn't constitute a form of government, what is it doing under forms of government? Doctors without suspenders 11:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

I don't know if you plan to mention the etymology in this version, but I should point that "the latin 'mente'" (mens, mentis, really) has nothing to do with it and should be discarded.Pif le chien 14:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

• Indeed. The -ment stem is from French (through Latin) and simply indicates a noun formed from a verb. Nothing to do with "mind." Christopher Parham (talk) 06:55, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confidence and supply

I have just created a page on Confidence and supply. I'm no political scientist, so if anyone wants to improve it, please do so. Also, if there is a more appropriate page for this message to be on, feel free to move it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Helenalex (talk • contribs) 02:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Montesquieu

The following text was on the main page:

Enlightenment philosopher Montesquieu argued that different forms of government were more appropriate for different size dominions. He wrote that entities governing a large area are most appropriately Despotisms, or Dictatorships, entities with sovereignty over a medium area should be monarchies and entities with authority over a small area are best as republics.

I was unable to find the source of this quote from online sources. --Kevinkor2 15:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "OK this article is really a mess" (relocated from top of page)

OK, this article really is a mess. I took the liberty of writing an a provisional outline. Maybe this is the place to assemble a coherent, consise, elegant article. I know that this outline is incomplete, maybe that will encourage editors to add, crossout, and rearrange topics so that we can produce an exemplary piece. Ace Diamond 02:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Government Defined

• A body that makes and enforces rules
  • features
    • authority
    • legitimacy
    • The State
  • any institution
    • civil
    • corporate
    • academic
    • religious

From the Greek for to steer

• commonly refers to a specific regime
  • Blair Government
  • see also Bush Administration

Forms of Government

• Authoritarian
• Autocratic
• Oligarchic
• Totalitarian
• Everything in between
• constitutional monarchy
• liberal democracy
• Llaissez Faire
  • Anarchistic
  • Libertarian
    • how does this apply to non-civil institutions?

Origins

• This might be the place to talk about the social contract
• What about other rationales for the developement of governments?
• Divine Right? Who argued in favor of this rationale?
• Confusious had a different approach, didn't he?
• What about Social Darwinism? The most capable will rise to the top?

Who gets to govern?

• Conquest
• Tradition
• Charisma
• Legal/rational (government with the express consent of the governed)

Functions of Governments

• Rule Making
• enforcement
• interpretation

Power

• Authority
  • limits of authority
• Legitimacy sources
  • Tradition
  • Charisma
  • Legal/Rational

Agenda setting

• Policy

How to Govern

• define power
• Acquiring power
• Applying power

Maybe these parts should be included in some other article? Branches of Government

• This section might fit better in an article on public administration/organizational schemes.
• This section assumes that the tripartite division of powers is universal.

Governmental Operations

• again maybe Public Administration

Size of Government

• Actually, this probably ought to be deleted as not neutral point of view Ace Diamond 02:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

What's the difference ( remeber Aristotle ? Herodotus?) between law and code, etc ? Wblakesx 05:49, 10 November 2006 (UTC)wblakesx

"It can be noted that a government can be seperated from other institutions becuase a government always maintains the sole use of violence to maintain and enforce its view."

surely not true: many governments don't manage to maintain a sole use of violence, some may not even care much as long as they are not threatened. I'm not sure that introducing the "legitimate force" idea from political philosophy would be a good idea either: just see what kind of morass trying to define "legitimate" leads to. In any case it's against common usage, e.g., one can talk about an "illegitimate goverment" or a government not generally "recognised" outside a state, but it's still basically a government as long as it maintains control. Also, preoccupation with violence is probably mistaken: it's easy to imagine a government ruling a heavily indoctrinated population, not needing to use violence since lynch mobs will take care of any "problems".

I agree most governments accept that citizens use violence in self defence etc. It was a nice try for a definition but it doesn't work --BozMo|talk 13:27, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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need to mention social organization of cyberspace

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This article is a mess, because it doesn't decide whether it's about the "decision making elite" of the state, or the state itself. I think it should take the first definition and leave the rest to the state article. It can still mention that "government" is sometimes used as a synonym of "state".

[edit] Computer Game "Sid Meier's Civilization III and IV"

• Being that this is a group of computer users, how many people are familiar with this game. I don't suggest to copy something that is copyrighted, but the format of the game's in game instructions, instruction manual and third party instruction manuals offer a better idea for format of this page.
• Yes, they do include not having a government Anarchy.
• Links in Wikipedia Civilization III and Civilization IV
• Game ranks each type of government and advances or variations of each.
• The Wiki pages mentioned do not show as good of form as I suggest for this page, the game itself has the info organized in detail.Kidsheaven 00:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)