Talk:Gothic metal
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[edit] Archives
For previous discussion, please see:
[edit] American Goth Metal Bands
Another thing: and what about the American Goth Metal bands?
For example: an analysis of the mid-to-late '90s phase of Christian Death would be very interesting. They released some solid Goth Metal records like Sexy Death God (1994) & Pornographic Messiah (1998). And what about Shadow Project, Rozz Williams's post-Christian Death band?
Also, something more about Type O Negative's musical output is sorely missed... For example, how their music influenced European Goth Metal acts (Moonspell and Lacuna Coil, for two).
And last - but not least - what about Danzig? Yes, his Metal is not Goth Metal in the rigorous Eurocentric definition of that term; nevertheless, he/the band influenced loads of Gothic Metal acts such as Anathema and Moonspell.
201.50.40.75 23:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá
- Lacuna Coil is Gothic Metal, not Goth Metal. Anathema and Moonspell are not Gothic metal, either. Please read the article.
11 years ago, when asked by Terrorizer magazine what kind of music they played, Anathema themselves said they played a type of "gothic metal" (that was the first time I heard the term).
Secondly, when Moonspell released Irreligious (1996) they were immediately included as one of the leading lights of European Gothic Metal by some very serious Metal magazines (Brazil's Rock Brigade, for one).
201.50.45.161 15:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá
- Ive been following the Melodic Metal genres for many years. Trying to question me isn't going to affect my argument. Also, it is common knowledge that small independent magazines are not seen as reliable sources. Magazines deliberatly misrepresent bands to sell issues all the time - what they give is opinion, not facts.
- Bands themselfs are also not seen as credible sources for their own genre, as many bands claim to be something they are not.
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- Something i forgot to mention before. The Gothic-Doom section does need seperating out into Goth Metal (what yew seem to be quite knowledgable on) and Atmospheric Doom. With your knowledge of Goth Metal's history, you could be highly helpfull in the rewriting of it.
"I've been following the Melodic Metal genres for many years".
It first glance, Melodic Metal bands don't seem too different from a number of contemporary Gothic Metal bands.
But I guarantee you that: Helloween and Paradise Lost come from completely different frame of minds, music-wise. If you want, I can later tell you some I've noticed.
Also, I wouldn't say Terrorizer UK and Brazil's Rock Brigade are "small, independent magazines". Quite the contrary: they are major-circulation magazines in the Heavy Metal scene. I can't think any magazine bigger then them besides Kerrang! (which is the biggest selling music mag in the United Kingdon).
"Magazines deliberately misrepresent bands to sell issues all the time".
Yes, they do. Even so, they are still the most reliable source for information. Being payed to write gives you a certain credibility (not always, but it does).
"What they give is opinion, not facts".
There's no "impartial" journalism. Even science isn't - and can't - be neutral.
"Bands themselves are also not seen as credible sources for their own genre, as many bands claim to be something they are not".
Yes, sometimes they say some pretty weird stuff. Like a regular Gothic Metal band calling themseves "Ethereal Romantic Windy Transparent" Metal or something like that.
But we're not talking about johnny-come-latelys here. We're talking about Anathema, one of the founding fathers of the genre, and one of the bands that might have coined the term itsself (Gothic Metal).
"With your knowledge of Goth Metal's history, you could be highly helpfull in the rewriting of it".
Thank for your compliment.
201.8.118.109 15:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá
- Notice i said Goth Metal, not Gothic Metal. Gothic Metal started with The Gathering, and more notably Theater of Tragedy.
- What your talking about is mostly Doom Death and Gothic Doom bands. Pretty different from Gothic Metal.
- However, yew seem to know more about Goth Metal bands than me, as im more experienced with Atmospheric Doom (yes, i learnt of this great division only recently).
- Thats why i said dont confuse the two (common misconceptions), and instead engage with me here and we can make progress on improving the Gothic Doom section.
"Notice i said Goth Metal, not Gothic Metal. Gothic Metal started with The Gathering..."
I wouldn't say Always... is the first Gothic Metal record. That's risky. I say that because:
- The only type of vocals present are Death grunts;
- The interplay between guitars is minimum;
- The first time the term "Gothic Metal" was used describing The Gathering's music was when the band released Mandylion, in 1995. That's when Anneke van Giersbergen entered the picture (female voice...).
Furthermore, Paradise Lost's Gothic (1991) is closer to the mark. Although a Doom / Death Metal album, it laid the blueprint for what was to become European Gothic Metal.
"...and more notably Theatre of Tragedy".
Theatre of Tragedy are My Dying Bride rip-offs. Their first truly Gothic Metal album was 1998's Aégis - that's five years than later Icon, the first true Gothic Metal album.
PS: Instead of ripping-off My Dying Bride, in Aégis Theatre of Tragedy try to copy the groundwork that Paradise Lost laid on albums such as the aformentioned Icon and 1995's Draconian Times. It's painfully obvious to hear the PL influence on this period of Theatre of Tragedy's career.
Once again, I hope that helps.
201.50.118.149 16:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá
- Wrong again. Both of those albums were called Gothic Metal. They were only called Gothic Metal in mass media when the term became the next 'advertising' slogan.
- And there is no European Gothic Metal - there is just, Gothic Metal, regardless of nationality. And Paradise Lost have played Doom Death, not Gothic Metal. Again, you sound like your repeating whatever mass media magazines tell you - which is 90 garbage.
- And again, they influenced, they didnt originate Gothic Metal. Hence why it says they influenced in the article.
"Wrong again. Both of those albums were called Gothic Metal".
By whom? And where? Again, where's your reference?
"They were only called Gothic Metal in mass media when the term became the next 'advertising' slogan".
I wouldn't call Metal Maniacs, Terrorizer and Rock Brigade "mass media" magazines. I also wouldn't call the xeroxed, black-and-white zines I read "mass media".
On the other hand, Rolling Stone would be a prime example of a mass media magazine - and they don't even like Metal (no wonder I dislike that magazine).
Tell me then: what is a mass media magazine to you?
"And there is no European Gothic Metal - there is just, Gothic Metal, regardless of nationality".
American Gothic metal and European Gothic metal differ greatly. I wouldn't separate them into different genres, but they definately are different.
"And Paradise Lost have played Doom Death, not Gothic Metal".
Calling Paradise Lost Doom Metal is as strange as calling them Death Metal. That simply doesn't paint the whole picture. That's why the Doom / Death Metal tag is so important.
Also, I challenge you to point a single Doom Metal riff on PL's Draconian Times (1995).
"Again, you sound like your repeating whatever mass media magazines tell you - which is 90 garbage".
Again you sound obtuse & oblivious to anybody else's argument. You are really like that Leyasu character.
"And again, they influenced, they didnt originate Gothic Metal. Hence why it says they influenced in the article".
They did originate Gothic Metal and you offered no convincing argument otherwise.
And citing this crappy Wikipedia article is a circular argument.
201.50.63.113 21:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC) José Felipe de Sá
- The archive links are above yew. Mass media magazines are magazines that are popular. And again, no difference in Gothic Metal - it is what it is, your as bad as that user on the Folk Metal page that tried to 'invent relations' between genres that dont exist.
- Cite something that isnt a repeat of the same mass media citation all ready and we may have something to talk about. Also cite a source that hasnt already been discounted. I think youll find youll have a very hard job.
You should read the interviews of the early 1990s. Paradise Lost and My Dying Bride were no pure Doom-Death groups. They're strong influenced by end-1980s Gothic Rock (not early Gothic Punk!) and Dark Wave music. --~Menorrhea 
19:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I find it really hard to beleive that deathrock and gothic rock influenced goth metal. First off, the metal and gothic/deathrock subcultures have always been two distinct seperate groups of people. In fact back in the 80's metalheads hated punks and deathrockers, so that theory about how deathrock and goth rock influenced goth metal is dead wrong. Goth metal is nothing more than a mainstream media attempt to label a certain type of metal. They dress all spooky and have a female singer, a la Siouxsie, so they must be part goth, so let's call them 'goth metal'! *rolls eyes* I took the whole entire gothic rock/deathrock part out of the article for the reasons stated above. Also, Samhain was not 'goth metal', they were deathrock/horror punk. Crescentia 03:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- Also, try readin the article. It openly states that Gothic Rock and Gothic Metal have nothing to do with each other. It also explains that Gothic Metal and Goth Metal are different things, and that neither is Female Fronted Metal!
- Next time try knowing what ur on about before a blanking a page.
If that is the case then why include it? If gothic rock has nothing to do with gothic metal then why is it there in the first place? Crescentia 15:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- Also, state some sources that list Christian Death and Samhain as influencing gothic metal. If you can find reliable sources it should be kept up. Crescentia 15:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The user you are debating with is a sock of Leyasu, a user who is banned from not only this page, but all of wikipedia. --Wildnox(talk) 22:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- He has too much time on his hands! HA! Crescentia 23:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Leyasu
This talk page is rather confusing to read. I'll just point out that the user:Leyasu is still actively editing this article despite being completely banned from editing on wikipedia. Presenting the many identities of Leyasu ...
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.152.216.25
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.41.223
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.155.146.226
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.66.36
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.91.34
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.143.33
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.80.240
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.44.28
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.68.251
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.40.247
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.156.159.73
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.143.62
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.65.172
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.42.24
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.69.113
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.157.66.19
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.142.241
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.156.158.118
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/81.153.42.120
- --Anarchodin 04:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Strange article
Many of these doom-death bands such as Paradise Lost and My Dying Bride were influenced by Gothic Rock artists such as Fields Of The Nephilim or Darkwave groups such as Dead Can Dance. They were doom-death-gothic-bands, IMO they were the first gothic metal bands. In the early 90s (1993), we called they Gothic metal, because they were a fusion between metal and goth. --87.122.21.17 23:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bickerpedia!
One thing that is said for sure is that "Chooing Death: The Improbable History of Death Metal & Grindcore" was able to state clearly that in the post-Death Metal era of 1995-2000, bands such as My Dying Bride and Paradise Lost fused the atmospheric influence of synthesizers ala 1980's Gothic Rock with Doom Metal (which was keeping the energy of death metal at a more gloomy tempo), in most respects, Gothic Metal is a fusion of (extreme) metal (which was influenced by hardcore punk) with Gothic rock (most commonly ala Sisters Of Mercy). Its also pretty enlightening to know that bands like Cradle Of Filth, (in a Post-Black Metal sense) who seemed to abandon the archetypical symphonic-black metal style for an extreme-goth-metal style of their own-- Including covering "Death Comes Ripping" (written by Glenn Danzig during The Misfits/SAMHAIN era) and "No Time To Cry" (by The Sisters Of Mercy).
Anyone who states that there is not a Crossover between goth and metal or even hardcore is in denial
[edit] Popularity
Saying Gothic Metal's only fanbase is small and in Europe is genralising and not completely true. Paradise Lost have had a lot of mainstream popularity in Germany and both Lacuna Coil and Type O Negative have gotten MTV airplay. I see Lacuna Coil shirts in Hot Topics all the time.
[edit] Symphonic metal!!!
"Netherlands' After Forever and Epica, for instante, make a fusion between the Power and Gothic Metal styles"????
After Forever and Epica are SYMPHONIC METAL, not a "fusion between gothic and power metal"!!!
