Talk:Gothic architecture

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Contents 1 Editing 2 Gothic = dark? 3 Timeframe? 4 Easternmost Gothic cathedral? 5 A recent addition 6 Distracting blank spaces 7 Ely cathedral 8 What happened to England? 9 Lund Cathedral 10 First paragraph needs fixing 11 St. Vitus Cathedral is gothic structure? 12 characteristics 13 Gothic - Medieval 14 Brick Gothic

[edit] Editing

Please remove "JOHN IS THE COOLEST..." from the article please.

Cherokee40 01:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)Cherokee40

[edit] Gothic = dark?

ij Removed the stuff about Gothic architecture being dark -- One of Suger's goals was that it NOT be dark -- hence the windows. The gothic church was supposed to transport people to a more holy realm. One of the points of flying butresses was to allow the churches to be lighter, with more open space, and more windows in the walls -- not to be dark and heavy. And I don't EVEn know what to say about the gargoyles. JHK

[edit] Timeframe?

Can we please put a timeframe here? I'm arguing with my wife over whether Gothic came before or after Romanesque Architecture

They were in part simultaneous, but Romanesque predates Gothic. JHK

I'll put back that part about Gothic revival, which waas good, but that stuff I just cut was plain silly. Or at least very badly written. JHK

[edit] Easternmost Gothic cathedral?

After I removed the statement that the cathedral in Zagreb was the most eastern Gothic cathedral, Wetman posted this on my talk page:

Hi! Give us some clues about Gothic east of Zagreb: monuments and dates would be a start. Not any easy subject I know. jump in at the deep end! Welcome!

So made a quick search and found a few Gothic cathedrals east of Zagreb. Not too many for sure (and I'll try to find more later) but certainly enough to prove that the Zagreb cathedral is not the easternmost.

City                Longitude        Gothic cathedral         Built
Zagreb          15.6 E

Vienna             16.2 E          St. Stephen's Cathedral         1359-1433
Bratislava      17.1 E          St. Martin's Concathedral       13th C-1452
Gdańsk          18.6 E          St. Mary's Concathedral         1379-1496
Kraków          19.6 E          Wawel Cathedral                 began 1320

Note that these are only the biggest cites with most impressive cathedrals but one could list many more. Anyway, thanks to Wetman for encouragement! Kpalion

Be bold! Take your list now-- you did the homework-- and add them to the entry. Imitate whatever format you find (a good idea til you start recasting clumsy formats yourself) Put Gothic architecture on your "My watchlist page" so you can check in and see what's happening. I don't want to steal your stuff and do this myself. Wetman 01:59, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK, so here's what I did:

• added some East European structures to the list
• changed some names to make the list a bit more consistent (like Notre Dame --> Our Lady's, it'a an English Wikipedia after all)
• sorted them alphabetically, usually by city names
• separated Gothic from Neo-Gothic and added Westminster Palace to the latter; I hope some day there will be a separate article about Neo-Gothic architecture, but for the time being the Neo-Gothic list may stay here

It would be good to add not only churches to the list - so far there are only sacral structures on the Gothic list. We will need to add some civilian and military structures (city walls, castles, etc) as well. Kpalion 02:37, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I wonder if Rabelais used "bigots" for goths ? This word has another senses in modern French And especially in a religious context.

Ericd 20:21, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It has been argued (most recently by architectural historian Dan Cruickshank in "Britains Best Buildings") that Durham Cathedral, as well as being a superb example of Romanesque architecture, also contains the first evidence of Gothic design.

The nave contains pointed traverses and pointed arches while flying buttresses are concealed over the aisles - the main elements of Gothic, 20 years before this style was seen elsewhere in Europe.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.153.219.170 (talk • contribs) .

In consideration of the above comment re: Durham Cathedral, would anyone object to updating the page to reflect this? If there is doubt over the earliest examples this should be stated, otherwise the authority of the text is compromised.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.189.234.178 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] A recent addition

An anonymous user made this recent addition to the opening paragraph:

Interestingly enough, the Gothic style of archetecture was more flattering than Romanesque. Cathedrals made in this style were very popular through out Europe as they had more windows and color to boast. This is fairly recent style of building that was later copied and developed in the centuries to come.

I was hoping someone could integrate this into the main body of the article, in some way. I don't really understand what's being said here, but it should not be in the opening paragraph (a summary) unless it is expanded in the main body. Stbalbach 20:36, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Distracting blank spaces

Formatting that encases the framed table of contents in text, in just the way a framed map or image is enclosed within the text, is now available: {{TOCleft}} in the HTML does the job.

Blank space opposite the ToC, besides being unsightly and distracting, suggests that there is a major break in the continuity of the text, which may not be the case. Blanks in page layout are voids and they have meanings to the experienced reader. The space betweeen paragraphs marks a brief pause between separate blocks of thought. A deeper space, in a well-printed text, signifies a more complete shift in thought: note the spaces that separate sub-headings in Wikipedia articles.

A handful of thoughtless and aggressive Wikipedians revert the "TOCleft" format at will. A particularly aggressive de-formatter is User:Ed g2s

The reader may want to compare versions at the Page history. --Wetman 20:18, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not taking sides here, but just want to point out some things. There is a major break in the continuity, see the Wikipedia style guidelines on how to write a good lead section and the purpose of the lead section. It's an abstract of the article contents, not a part of the main text, it's a summary. However it's a user-defined variable to see the TOC or not, and I think stylistic issues should be left to article contributors. Blank spaces can be nicely filled with images, and by reducing the number of section headings and thus length of the TOC. As well with small screens, blank spaces are not such a problem, for example on my laptop screen this article has a very minor amount of blank space since the image fills most of it. Stbalbach 21:01, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Quite true. It shouldn't become an issue, nor should it be interpreted as an iron-clad directive to be enforced by enforcers in the name of uniformity. Wrapping the table of contents should be an oped option at each article, assessed on an individual basis, merely in the interests of a handsome, readable format for the viewer. --Wetman 22:51, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ely cathedral

To describe Ely cathedral as a gothic cathedral is misleading. From the outside, and from inside the long nave, the primacy of style is Romanesque. From the crossing, with its famous octogon, to the east end are a mixture of Early English and decorated gothic. Ely's Norman nave wasn't reworked like both those of Winchester or Canterbury to approximate the later fashionable gothic style. Cathedrals of England - Alec Clifton-Taylor & An Outline of European Architecture - Nikolaus Pevsner

[edit] What happened to England?

Gothic architecture in England seems to have lost non-domestic information: does anyone know when such info was vandalised, or does it need re-written? ...dave souza 18:14, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lund Cathedral

Lund Cathedral, included here in the list of notable Gothic structures, is rather known to be of Romanesque architectural style. I don't think it should be present in this list. Please see the article (Lund Cathedral) for pictures and details. Atilim Gunes Baydin 13:52, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First paragraph needs fixing

Someone obviously pulled a prank here, but I'm only a casual wikipedia user so I'll let someone more dedicated correct it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.17.86.52 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] St. Vitus Cathedral is gothic structure?

The end of building of St. Vitus Cathedral is in XX century. So we must say the cathedral is partialy neogothic structure. On the picture we see the main part of the tower which is evidently medieval but the top of the tower is baroque architecture. I think we should remove this picture because it can make false imagination of the gothic structures. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.136.151.181 (talk • contribs) .

Restored image with a comment on tower. Unfinished towers are typical of gothic cathedrals, there are very few examples of medival stone spires. the most notable ones like Cologne and Ulm were finished in the 1880s.

Also, we should make a distinction between neogothic and contemporary completions of gothic structures using original plans and often, original construction techniques. -- Petri Krohn 22:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I made the distinction talking about but there is difference between Cologne Cathedral which was complete with original plans and the tower we can see on this picture. The towers in Cologne are whole gothic and top of tower on this picture is evidently baroque. Can we show it as an example of gothic structures? --195.136.151.181 06:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

If that is the point, we should also remove the photograph of Notre-Dame de Paris, which was almost totally re-invented by Eugène Viollet-le-Duc in XIX century, and is, therefore, neogothic in what we can see. I think the best thing is to keep both, puntualizing this under the image. Strong restoration in XIX century and completion in Baroque or Renaissance is is really common in gothic structures.--Garcilaso 11:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] characteristics

hello, i am doing an extra credit report for school and i need three characteristics for gothic architecture. i found that the 3 characteristics were very faint i couldnt quite understand what they were. i know that they talk about pointed ahrches and and gothic cathedrals could be highley decorated. but i could still not find out the third characteristic, i was hoing someone could say in another post or edit the page so it might be a little more understandible.(209.247.21.203 21:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)) and also i am very very new so please HELP!(209.247.21.203 21:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC))

Two ideas that should help: use a search engine (the first hit looks useful to me, but no need to stop there), and always use more sources than Wikipedia – it's a starting point, not The Definitive Answer... Good luck, .. dave souza, talk 21:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gothic - Medieval

I see that the Italian churches are listed here. They would usually be characterized as 'medieval' rather than Gothic. But there is no category more encompassing category 'medieval'. What to do?Brosi 20:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brick Gothic

Hi, I was wondering what people think of the brick gothic section in this article? To me it seems like it’s given undue prominence (lovely though the photo is!). I’ve checked a few of the main reference works on Architecture/western architecture/Gothic (Pevsner, Banister Fletcher 20th ed., Watkins, Frankl -index only) and in none of them does the term brick gothic appear, all I can find are a few very brief references to particular gothic buildings being made out of brick.

It would be silly to get rid of it but I think it would be better treated as a style of a particular area in a similar way to, for example, Rayonnant, Decorated or Mudejar gothic. Seeing as though there is also an article devoted to brick gothic I think we could safely do away with the photo from the gothic architecture article but keep the text (there aren’t individual photos for each of the other gothic styles mentioned, most of which command a number of pages each in the books I mentioned). I hope this isn’t too controversial, but the article does give a distorted view of what is generally understood to be gothic architecture. I’d really like to hear what people think before I go ahead though! Thanks --Ivanivanovich 01:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)