Talk:Gothic Lolita

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Contents 1 Elegant Gothic Lolita page is mislabeled 2 Disassociation and Clarification 3 Photo of this fashion? 4 Things to be done 5 Fringe Culture, Even in Japan 6 "goths" 7 Sources of references 8 Ethimology

[edit] Elegant Gothic Lolita page is mislabeled

At this point in time, I think the online GothLoli culture has been educated enough to handle clarifying the actual Elegant Gothic Lolita wiki page (not the Gothic Lolita page) as a term coined by Mana (musician) specifically for his Moi-même-Moitié brand. The Elegant Gothic Aristocrat page is mature enough to tell the difference and point people to the real fashion (Aristocrat (fashion)) while informing them of the common mistake, so why can we not do that for Elegant Gothic Lolita? Why are we allowing EGL to redirect to Gothic Lolita? We're only allowing the mislabeling to continue instead of trying to rectify it.

You all realize that if you were to say "I'm EGL" in Japan, they'd be a little confused.

I also understand it is shorter, but so is the word "iPod" in comparison to "MP3 Player" (or really, Digital Audio Player). However, you can't call every MP3 Player you see an iPod, because that would be misleading and well, confusing. iPod is a brand of MP3 Player/Digital Audio Player, just as EGL is a brand (really, a line in a brand) of Lolita fashion

  It has been corrected and clarified! The Elegant Gothic Lolita page no longer redirects to Gothic Lolita. It now
  specifically describes the label, and points to Lolita fashion and Gothic Lolita in the description.

[edit] Disassociation and Clarification

Perhaps the best major revamp would be to clarify that "Gothic Lolita" isn't the umbrella style category, but Lolita fashion is.... and then focus the article more on the specific subgenre of gothic lolita than trying to explain all styles? This might be complicated since many confuse the term "gothic lolita" with "lolita fashion" in general. Loli fashion also has othercategories, not just gosu! I would suggest more info on otherstyles, like sweet lolita, white lolita, punk lolita. Maybe even male counterparts! it's so complex!

  In some instances a more cumbersome Gothic/Lolita might also be slightly more accurate, to 
  represent the existence of Gothic Lolita within two poles of lolita fashion. Looking at the
  decor and "lifestyle goods" advertised to Gothic Lolitas, as opposed to say amaloli, it is
  clear that there is a definite distinction in the consumption patterns (at least the apparent 
  patterns presented in magazines, websites etc.) of many who would call themselves Gothic 
  Lolita, as they tend to have a strong overlap with "goths" as far as literature, movies, and 
  art is concerned. At the same time, the two poles are never in balance, and there are many who 
  seem to oscillate between them over their period of engagement with the fashion. I guess what 
  I mean to say is, classifications of fashion (especially street fashion) are always temporally 
  and spacially rooted, and thus change over time--often aided by marketing and other media in 
  attempts to "codify" and "reify" sub-fashions, which is then actualized by the 
  participants/consumers and generates increased diversity of products (and presumably sales).Kaelus Primus

Someone editing this article is really trying to make gothloli sound like some kind of underground cult-like movement!! I grew up in Tokyo from when I was 12 until now, and was dressing Gothloli and going to gothloli-related events from about age 15.. there is no "social hardship", nobody thinks you are "crazy" (sometimes "kogyaru" looks at you funny, but there are recently also some "kogyaru-gosurori" girls in Shibuya), most older ladies think you are very cute!! Yes, most gothloli (nowadays) are "bangyaru" and "otaku" but so are many young Japanese girls. That's not so strange. It's just a fashion with some lifestyle elements. Just like being a "b-girl" or skater punk or whatever. It's a nice culture, but not weird or unusual. Many girls at my school were into Loli/Gothloli in some way.

"social hardship" of being Loli seems to be mainly in other countries, or places. Where I live, ["The OC", Southern California, America] there is a lot of hardship not being like the stereotypical teen girl who has fake tans and a RAZR phone with fake gems on it. But in Tokyo it doesn't seem that way.

[edit] Photo of this fashion?

Would be possible to include a photo of a typical Gotic Lolita woman? Thanks.

There really isn't a "typical" as the fashion of GL/EGL/EGA/CL etc is vast and and also has many branches from neo-gothic to punk, even going as far as looking like the victim of a horror film. ^_^

There are links at the bottom of the article page, Blue Period being a good source for photos considering she has MANY scans from the Gothic and Lolita Bibles.

....Hi, I think one of the posters here has misunderstood "gothloli" style, it's not such a wide genre and the picture of the girls in white and black on the page now is a fairly good representation of the typical style of about 2 years ago (recently it's become a little more toned-down and perhaps more adult looking). Punk-looking girls are, er, punk, not gothloli. Likewise pink sweaters and vivienne westwood cardigans is "lolita fashion" in japan, but not GOTHloli. Lace petticoats, black frilly dresses, teddybears made of black leather, stockings with ribbons etc, that's gothloli.

I have to say the current picture of Mana is a bad way to represent Gothic Lolita, as he's dressed more like regular western goth than Gosuloli.

[edit] Things to be done

Note that Japanese version of article refers to phenom as "Gothic & Lolita," and that typical Japanese usage is just plain "Lolita." More explication of Harajuku street scene (perhaps whole separate article?) including older male Japanese photographers, foreign and domestic tourists, relationship between old and new members of street scene, and commentary on age/background of participants. Perhaps a more sophisticated presentation of Goth/Gothloli relationship, since these two phenom have at least some common causes, they are more part of the same phenom rather than two disparate phenom affecting each other. More pics would be nice! - Naif

...I agree more (up-to-date) pictures would be nice. The Japanese article is not written by someone who knows anything about "gothic", as far as I could see, although I only glanced at it. For the article about Japanese lolita fashion, it would be worth noting that "Lolita" fashion is the main genre and "Gothloli" is a subset, the same as "classic lolita" etc. It seems like the current article (and many comments from people) have this exactly the opposite way round). There are many "lolita" brands which are more similar to regular street clothing than gothloli and many gothloli girls wear these styles when they are not dressing up as gothloli. Some of those brands are quite high-quality designers using good materials, they are popular not just with "kids", and are expensive. Vivienne Westwood is sometimes considered a brand like that. The terms "EGL" and "EGA" are usually only known by fans of Mana and his fashion brand, it is not the usual term for gothloli's, likewise most "real" Japanese goths don't even know what it means. Most people might know about "lolita fashion", the Japanese goths call gothloli's "gothloli" and young girls into gothloli or other lolita fashions sometimes call each other "lolita-chan"s. *Some* gothloli's, interestingly, call themselves "goshikku" because they have no background about the original style of "gothic" music and fashion and don't see the difference. The goths don't like that! ;) There is no "harajuku scene" specifically related to Gothloli- are you thinking of the (ever decreasing) cosplayers and visual kei fans on the bridge there? Probably there are less than 50 girls in total and less than 5 or 10 gothloli's amongst them on a weekend. You can see more than that just walking around akihabara (lots of gothloli's are otaku kind of people). If you go to marui in shinjuku you can see about 100 gothloli's in 10 minutes. Maybe the article should include information about "lolita fashion" being the bigger picture, and gothloli attracting more attention in the west??

i have heard sweet lolita refer to themselves as gosrori though; would this be because the term originated as gothic&lolita and got shortened to gothloli/gosrori, or would this be some sort of reference to their tendency towards gothic clothing on the days that they are not dressed sweet lolita?

[edit] Fringe Culture, Even in Japan

Similar comments with the above: goth loli is definitely NOT mass marketed in Japan. If anything it is considered very, very fringe culture that the average Japanese citizen has nothing to do with.

Well, there's a large department store right in the middle of extremely busy and expensive Shinjuku, almost entirely devoted to Gothloli. Also there is a monthly glossy magazine you can buy in any convenience store which heavily features the fashion. Every single HMV or Tower records has a large section of Gothloli related records, magazines and posters. If you mean the average 40 year old salaryman has nothing to do with it, then you're right I suppose. But for teenagers it's a major "youth fashion" (hate that word), along with "Punk", "Gyaru" etc. Way back in 1999 Shiina Ringo dressed in gothloli style for her album and some videos, and got to number 1 in the album and singles charts. More recently even Ayumi Hamasaki did a couple of gothloli-style pop videos, and she's the biggest pop artist in all of Japan, selling millions of records. Can't get much more major than that.

Multiple female women with mainstream jobs have responded to a question "if you had to do cosplay, which cosplay would you do?" with "GothLoli." I saw a group of girls at one senior high school culture festival in the countryside dress up in Gothloli without attracting special attention. I agree it's not far, far fringe. Just "fringe." -Naif

I think the japanese fashion articles on wikipedia are very biased towards this kind of visual-kei culture. Not that there's anything wrong but I think it'S not an accurate representation of how Japanese teens really dress. Lolitas are usually considered very strange by Japanese pple, and yes, Hamasaki did dress like that for a music vid but I think that's more because it's a music video. Britney Spears dressed as an Air Stewardess and a nurse in her toxic video i believe, but that doesnt indicate any kind of fashion movement.

Britney Spears dressed up for her videos and that didn't cause a fashion movement in the U.S. That's very true. But you underestimate the amount of influence the idols and pop stars have in Japan. All cultures are influenced by celebrities to a degree, but Japanese people tend to be among the most impressionable.

Britney Spears shaves her head, parties until she's drunk, and then calls herself the "Antichrist" and puts 666 on her forehead, and you expect people to imitate her? LOL! 204.52.215.107 15:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I would say that rather than a fashion movement, it's more of a movement similar to the goth movement in America or Europe, and teenagers dressed in these fashions are more likely to be outcasts or otaku. I think that references to Lolita by mainstream artists is more about the artist looking for inspiration for new material. Compare Hamasaki's music video to Madonna's similar goth-inspired style in one of her videos.

I'd like to see an article focusing on all Japanese fashions with this in it too. Lolitas, Aristocrats, Kogals, Ganguro/Gonguro, Yamanba, & whatever the people in those "Frits" street fashion books are called. & yeah, adding more pictures would help differentiate between lolita styles.

What are 'Mary Janes' in the context of shoes? Is it a brand name? -CamTarn

I wish there was an article on it. They're shoes with a strap. Cool Hand Luke (Communicate!) 04:16, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There is, it is Mary Jane (Shoe).

i'd just like to point out that, when i was in Japan, there were whole blocks of stores dedicated to gothic & lolita/aristocrat/punks/VK fashion in malls. i saw this not just in Tokyo, but in Osaka and Hiroshima as well, and i didn't even go looking for the ones that weren't in Tokyo - i just ran into them. i also saw a store or two in Kobe, Kyoto and a number of other places. Given, the popularity has fallen off since then, but for a subcultural fashion it's really quite common. It's an event when i see even one deathrocker or even an obvious goth on the streets around here, and i live in San Francisco, one of the centers of goth culture. i do wish we had a Harajuku/Yoyogi type place around here... There's the Haight, but no one really hangs out there except the homeless street punks. Ah well, no use whining, i suppose. MiraFirefly 04:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "goths"

The label is in frequent misuse, and really applies only to followers of the gothic rock/deathrock subculture, which is almost completely underground. Everything else that has come to be associated with the term is really from widespread media misusage of it.

[edit] Sources of references

Here some online text tha can be used for inline citations -> http://www.lerman.biz/asagao/gothic_lolita/research1.html . —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.50.154.66 (talk) 03:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

I added another one.. look at the reference I put in its #1 right now. fairly extensive.TheDarknessVisible 06:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethimology

Is posible to add some ethimology of the history of the word, the use of "gothic" and "lolita" to describe the style? --66.50.154.66 14:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)