Talk:Goldman Band
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[edit] Dispute
Dear IP 72.225.201.174
Please do not make personal attacks on other contributors. Chris "Napoleon" Wilhelm (sic) and "mediocre band director" are not appropriate comments. Wikipedia has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by admins or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on the contributor. For further help, see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Thank you.
Daniel Costello
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:IP_72.225.201.174"
PS. If you do not edit your hurtful and demeaning comments from this article (or let others edit them out), I will ask the administrator to block your edits from Wikipedia.
[edit] response
Sorry...I haven't figured out how to reply properly so I'll edit.
I actually did not make those comments myself. However, Wilhelm (sic) was referred to in that way by most members of the band, one of whom sat under Sousa.
As for who started changing this page as of several days ago, I have no idea, though most band members believe they know.
As for using an IP address as an ID, that seems kind of odd. Wouldn't it be far better to use the L2 MAC address instead? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.10.219.37 (talk • contribs) .
[edit] response
Dear 12.10.219.37,
Obviously the author of the previous statements as well as the vandal of the past few days, who only refers to him or herself as "most members of the band" still does not want to identify him or herself. At the same time, I have been accused of hiding behind an IP address, where indeed I have openly stated my name in each discussion.
I have edited out any mention of Chris Wilhjelm due to your polemics. Please refrain from reverting this article because you feel the need to reach your own political objectives. That is surely not the goal of Wikipedia.
Sincerely, Daniel Costello
PS. No, we've probably never met. (although I cannot be certain, since you refuse to identify yourself)I along with at least one of the administrators of Wikipedia have been editing this article and editing your reverts.
[edit] response
SONET Costello: Don't remove the facts concerning [the]number of concerts. Are you one of Wilhjem (sic)/Force's minions or some other participant in the demise of this band? Stop changing history that you don't like. Let's place responsibility where it objectively belongs. The band voted down the last set of proposals, which indeed proves that MOST of the members were unwilling to live with any more of the nonsense.
Again, I am not a bandmember and not even a musician, but a fan of the band for 35 years. It's sad to see what's happened, and the reasons are crystal clear.
[edit] response
Dear IP 72.225.201.174, aka SONET,
I guess you did not read my polite request to not make personal attacks on other contributors. Calling me a minion is really not necessary and quite unfair, especially since I was never a member of the band, nor do I personally know most of the parties involved. Having said that, I also know from various accounts (from both sides)what happened. What you see as "crystal clear" reasons for the demise of the band is in fact a highly controversial and unsubstantiated opinion on your part.
As I have stated other places, Wikipedia is not the place to champion your personal agenda at the expense of an objective article. Your emotional editorializing just doesn't belong here. Write a letter to the editor of your favorite music magazine if you like. To see more of what I am talking about go to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.
Sincerely, Daniel Costello
[edit] Response
SONET No, this IS the place to discuss possible bias (this is not the wikipedia article but a discussion forum). The word "minion" is a shortcut meant to imply that you probably have a vested interest in the content of the Goldman Band wikipedia entry. Please state if you are in one of the following categories: 1) Goldman Band Management 2) Goldman Band Board 3) Goldman Band musician
I can state unequivocally that I am not in any three of these categories, nor have I ever been.
As for your removal of the facts concerning attendence and # of performances, this betrays a clear bias on your part. Arguably, the statements I added to correlate this drop to the silly programming is not currently supportable within the context of the article as it stands, but we both know it's true. In fact, when Wiljhelm (sic) took over people I know knew nothing of him or his background, but a look at the season's program caused them to ask whether the man was a high school band director somewhere, and it is a fact he is.
Again, I challenge you to list OTHER wikipedia articles you have written or contributed to. Otherwise, it becomes obvious that you have a personal interest in suppressing the truth. Read my article on SONET, or Synchronous Optical Networking. Where's yours?
[edit] Response to SONET
Dear Sonet,
I have openly stated my name, what's yours? Why are you afraid of stating your name? What do you have to hide? I have no problem saying who I am. Like you, I have no connection with the Goldman Band. I was never on the management, never on the board and have never played with the Goldman Band. My father, a clarinet player, played in the Goldman band a couple of times in the sixties, more than forty years ago, but was never a regular member. He also did some publicity work for the band at one point for this and other musical organizations. He and I wrote the current version (current as of 12/16/05 9:45am)together.
When I wrote "Your emotional editorializing just doesn't belong here" I meant the article, of course, not this forum. We should discuss things using this page and perhaps come to some kind of agreement that we both can live with.
I am a professional musician living in Germany and usually write edits to Wikipedia in German (go to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauptseite and search for AKAD or Dessau). I have not written any articles myself, and this is my first in English. I studied music, among other places, in New York City. I also, yes, know Chris Wilhjelm, but have not spoken or communicated with him for at least a couple of years. He did not ask me to edit this article and I have not told him I am doing it.
Although you admit no personal interest or bias, your edits are polemic and highly contentious. Saying that attendance dropped because the programming was silly is not a fact, it is an opinion. To say that there were thirty concerts, then six concerts, then no concerts, and that Wilhjelm is responsible is not true - other factors were responsible. The Goldman Band's financial problems did not start in 2001, when Chris Wilhjelm became music director, but way before.
You state "Arguably, the statements I added to correlate this drop to the silly programming is not currently supportable within the context of the article as it stands." That's exactly right. The reason they are out of context is because they do not reflect a neutral point of view, which the rest of the article does, which is an official policy of Wikipedia. Do you really think such editorializing statements belong in an encyclopedia? If you do not think you are biased on this issue, may I suggest you read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view more closely.
Reducing Chris Wilhjelm to a high school band director is unfair. He is a highly qualified professional. The Ridgewood Concert Band, which has never had financial problems throughout Wilhjelm's tenure, often features soloists from the NY Philharmonic, has made recordings and is a highly acclaimed ensemble in the New York area. Concerts are well attended and audiences, no less sophisticated than those of the Goldman Band, enjoy the music which is programmed. Here is Wilhjelm's bio if you have not read it (from the website www.ridgewoodband.org)
"Hailed by critics as "... one of the finest band conductors in this country," Dr. Christian Wilhjelm is currently the Music Director of the Ridgewood Concert Band (New Jersey). Wilhjelm is praised “for his classical conducting technique, his phrasing and nuance, and with his understated baton he stretches long musical phrases seamlessly over time.”
Dr. Wilhjelm is the founder of the Ridgewood Concert Band (New Jersey), and for the past 20 years its Music Director. In 1998, he took the band on a critically acclaimed tour of Central Europe and again, in 2003, to the French Riviera. He has recorded the CDs Organic Band for organ and concert band and the Music of Michael Valenti.
Dr. Wilhjelm is also in demand as a conductor of orchestras and chamber music concerts. He has conducted the Norwalk Symphony (Connecticut), the Adelphi Orchestra and the Fair Lawn Summer Series (New Jersey). Braving freezing weather, he conducted Merry Tuba Christmas with host Harvey Phillips in Rockefeller Center to a huge audience over network television. Dr. Wilhjelm is now the permanent conductor for this annual event.
As a professional musician, Dr. Wilhjelm has played the French horn with the Boston Symphony, the Boston Pops and, as a principal, with the Boston Ballet Orchestra, the Boston Opera Orchestra and the Richmond Symphony. He spent three summers performing in the Fellowship Orchestra at Tanglewood where he received the distinction of being named a Leonard Bernstein Fellow. Dr. Wilhjelm has performed with great conductors including Leonard Bernstein, Sir Colin Davis, Arthur Fiedler and Sejii Ozawa. He has also performed with many leading jazz and popular musicians including: Benny Carter, Art Farmer, Isaac Hayes, Rufus Reid, Sonny Rollins, Henry Mancini and Dionne Warwick. Dr. Wilhjelm champions the music of contemporaries Michael Valenti, Joan Tower, David Sampson and Eric Whitacre as well as the great composers long associated with the Goldman Band including Percy Grainger, John Philip Sousa, and Edwin Franko Goldman. As an authority on the broad spectrum of published music, Dr. Wilhjelm has traveled throughout the nation promoting bands and band music at conferences.
Dr. Wilhjelm graduated from the New England Conservatory where he studied with Harry Shapiro of the Boston Symphony. He was the principal hornist with the Conservatory Symphony Orchestra under the direction of Gunther Schuller and the Conservatory Wind Ensemble under the direction of Frank Battisti. He received a Master of Music degree from The College of New Jersey and a Doctor of Education degree from Teachers' College, Columbia University. "
Sincerely,
Daniel Costello
[edit] RESPONSE
As I stated before, I feel no need to tell you my meatspace name. That's not hiding: I see no reason to tell you (and I see no reason to believe that your nym is anything more than a mere nym). I've given you a nym and you have an IP address so that's more than enough. As for the number of concerts performed during Wiljhelm's (sic) tenure, THAT'S not opinion, but fact. The entire season was cancelled in 2005, and only 6 concerts were performed during 2004. As the previous writer (who was not myself, by the way) wrote, Goldman Management did indeed spend (and the documents are available) large amounts on legal fees while losing in arbitration again and again. These are facts that led to the demise of the band, though I'll concede that my attempts to preserve the previous writer's correlation between those facts and Wiljhelm (sic) is at this juncture sketchy, though that may change in the near future.
The facts should be captured, particularly for a band with such a history as this. If you want to soften the language correlating those facts to Wiljhelm (sic)personally, then fine.
[edit] Response to unknown user
Dear Sonet/72.225.201.174,
Just because you have never met me before does not mean that I do not exist. Here is the horn section of the orchestra I play with in Germany.
http://www.hornplayer.net/sections/s197.html
I think since you are hiding then you have something to hide. You are accusing me of using a pseudonym which is untrue. Why are you saying you are not the writer of the previous response when all of your edits are coming from the same IP address? I guess you did not read my response to Sonet and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. This article is not supposed to be an editorial column with a whole bunch of opinions, it is supposed to be an encyclopedic entry. If you want to start a blog and parrot your opinions and those of "most band members", which I suspect is just you, go ahead.
Daniel Costello
[edit] Response to Nym "Daniel Costello" SONET
Ah, that proves it. There can be no doubt that you are actually someone named "Daniel Costello": You linked to a webpage with that name on it so that proves it for sure!
In other words, get a clue. Meatspace name means little these days, unless you're the taxman or have a shotgun. That I am able to write meaningfully about SONET network architectures tells you that I am almost certainly not a musician (there aren't that many engineers who could write this, never mind musicians).
I can also only guess as to how it is that you started entering changes to the Goldman Band page. I doubt it's a coincidence, given what I know. You have an axe to grind and would like to hide what is an objective part of history, even if it makes certain persons look bad.
[edit] Applicable policies
Hi. While it is better to be discussing things than endlessly reverting the article, I would like to mention a couple of policies on Wikipedia that I suspect have yet to be closely examined.
Please use wikipedia talk space to have polite discussions about improving articles. When editing, please make sure that everything entered into them is backed up with a source, in whichever citation style you prefer. Thanks. Jkelly 20:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] NOTE............
The Ridgewood band is NOT a proffessional(sic) group. The recordings were NON UNION(sic). The musicians PAID for their trip to France. The musicians played for NOTHING. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Deafludwig (talk • contribs) .
[edit] Major edit
I just performed a major edit. The biographical material about Goldman belongs in his article. I have bolded it as an explicit cross-reference. Please help by providing sources for the unreferenced claims in this article. Jkelly 23:10, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] External links
Please note that Wikipedia is not a repository of links. When a website has content that we use to reference our articles, the website is placed in references. See Wikipedia:When to link externally. I am removing links that are already in the reference section and any link that goes to a 404 error. Please don't place low-value links or duplicate links in the article -- it can be understood as spam. Jkelly 23:16, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
