Talk:God Speaks
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New Chris 00:24, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] terms taken from E/N/G, or E/N/G's terms already derivative?
...Meher Baba appears to adopt words from various western sources, including several western mystic poets, e.g. Emerson ("Over-soul"), Novalis ("God-intoxicated"), and Goethe ("God-man")...
I was just wondering: is there actual evidence anywhere for this claim? It seems much more likely to me for some reason that E/N/G's use of such terms was based on or derived from previous translations from other sources, right? Especially re: "God-man," which is standard in Christian theology for I-don't-know-how-long, but definitely way before Goethe (!).
Also, I obviously agree about the non-dualist thrust of the metaphysics, but M.B. also heavily stressed the difference between people just cavalierly making non-dualist truth claims abstractly, vs. non-dualism in actual practice/experience, which it may be worth stressing? That is, it's one thing for the Avatar of the Age to say "I am God," and quite another thing for someone else to say "I am God" (George Bush or whomever else might be tempted to...) while we're all really still just here in this gross world/sphere, regardless of the ultimate underlying metaphysical abstract truth of everything. In that sense, too, M.B. is also metaphysically compatible with theism, if one thinks of the conscious Beyond state as containing but separate from the gross/subtle/mental worlds.
(I'm new to this wiki stuff or else I'd try editing this a little myself, but maybe I'll come back to it...)
Very interesting. And everything you say is totally true. I hope you will include these points in the article. About the terminology derivations, if you think they are wrong, please by all means correct what I say here. The word "God-man" has roots back to the early 3rd Century Christianity at least. And the word "God-intoxicated" appears original, even in its Sufi form of "Mast-Allah" (which is nearly literally the same) yet I could not find "Mast-Allah" in any other source. Baba did read the romantic western poets when he was young, and he uses the name "mystic" to describe these terms. He does not appear to mean simply Christian Mystic, thus we might suppose he was making reference to the poets -- especially Emerson's use of the word "Over-soul."
About what you say about Baba being compatible with theism, this is very true and should be pointed out in the article as it is vitally important. However, I have read the writing of Nisargadatta who was definitely a pure advaita-vedantist, pure non-dualist, and he speaks about God too. Baba does not agree with Buddhism, the idea that there is no soul and no God. He makes a clean break from this view in "God Speaks," saying how Buddha emphasized Nirvana but did not explain further and this was interpreted as his meaning there was no God -- only consciousness. Baba definitely takes a strong stand for theism. But it ought not be imagined that he means an external God as imagined in Abrahamic monotheism. I have coined the term "theistic monism" that I think better describes Baba's view. But Wikipedia does not allow original research and so I can't really use that term. But to me it captures better what he means by God. He is quite unequivocable about the Unity of Being -- and that all is God and that God is the only protagonist in the drama -- no matter how different it appears.
Yet, and seemingly contradicting this in the next moment, he emphasizes strengthening the sense of longing, separation, and love for God (as if external) as a means to attain unity. So this is very paradoxical and worth pointing out somewhere if one of us ever gets the chance. Chris 21:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Syncretism
Hdtnkrwll, Congrats on the excellent clarification of the syncretism portion. Nicely written.
[edit] On Baba's Cosmology
Hi Chris,
As a log-in user I'm quite new in Wikipedia. I first started appreciating it when I found the entries on Meher Baba, the Bahai Faith and other spiritual paths. I've never felt as a follower of any particular religion or spiritual teacher. Yet, my reading the Discourses, when I was 19, was like the cleaning away of a huge mystical cloud of terms and concepts which I had mentally collected and the revelation of what I had been trying to come to during my quest. It was rather like finding an inherent knowledge buried under layers of never ending questions, than learning something new from a book outside of me. I still appreciate many writers for the influence they had in my life, like Krisnamurti or John Lilly, but my inner connection with Baba's Discourses is a completely different chapter. Lately I decided to log-in to the German section, for a minor addition to an Austian artist's entry and then I decided to log-in to the English side, mostly to learn more on editing, since german terminology is quite hard for me to cope with.
All this would be material for a personal email, but I state it here only as a self-introduction to my following request for advice. In the discussion of the Meher Baba entry, I suggested some mentioning of Baba's "cosmology" structure of the apparent creation's levels, since I find it very helpful for people pondering on the nature of the Universe. I was adviced to look under God Speaks for a more appropriate place for it. I surely wouldn't like to try any editing before I am confident I understand POV and original research sufficiently and I definitely wouldn't like to give a bad time to anyone with premature efforts. The thing is, I don't find in which way it would be possible to make such an addition in this entry. I've looked a bit in your discussions and contributions and feel quite glad to be addressing you this. Can you help me, please, with any suggestions?
Hoverfish 14:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Hoverfish,
- I checked all this out and it seems like you want to do something pretty expansive on the Discourses. I like the suggestion that a Discourses section be created, that is if you feel like it doesn't fit in the God Speaks page. Wikipedia is fairly open to articles on important well-read books. The Discourses defintiely qualifies. If you'd like I could see about starting one and linking you to it. Remember that no matter what you write, the Wikiway is that others will likely at some point challenge or change it unless you're very lucky. One of the cool thing though is that whatever you write stays in the page's history, so it can at some point be considered or recovered. Chris 16:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Try going here: Discourses (Meher Baba) Chris 16:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
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- About POV and original research, it's sort of like this: If I say "Meher Baba is surely God" or "Clearly Meher Baba is a fraud and possibly the devil himself," these are POV (point of view statements) and will get struck down pretty quick, or even be considered vandalism. But if I say "So and so scholar says in such and such source that Meher Baba is clearly the devil" well if I can site my source and it is a published serious book, then it is a "fact" about what so and so scholar has said (even if he is wrong) and no one can quarrel with it. Someone might put another quote near it by someone else, but removing it would be vandalism without giving a pretty good reason. Original research means, at least in the context of something like Baba's cosmology, giving your own original interpretation of what Baba "means" by what he says. To a certain extent you can do this, especially when it is clearly derivable from the material or some other source material. It helps even better if you can give that source material. But for clarifying things to cold readers, a small amount of fudging the lines is sometimes in order or even necessary, especially when a writer is particularly obtuse. But if you are giving a truly original spin on the content, really interpreting it in a new and not previously published way, well that is original research in the sense that Wikipedia really frowns. But keep in mind you can give a pretty outrageous interpretation if you can site a reliable published source from a reputable publisher. Chris 17:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Chris, thanks a lot for your flash creation of the stub on the Discourses and your advice. Actually I wasn't prepared on doing anything extensive, but intentions can change quite unexpectedly, especially given such a push. I might even find the stub already developed into a fully expanded article by the time I'm ready. I'll take it as it comes, form inside and from outside. I was looking for something to do in the Wikipedia and it looks like this something turns out to be quite the something for me. Thanks again. Hoverfish 17:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't worry about anyone getting to it first. My experience is that a very tiny fraction of users actually contribute, and mostly to spelling and style. It is a rare bird that decides to spend the time and mind to write something. And most contributions are improvements, but occassionally some crazy has decided they are the world's expert and have come to save the day. It is both comical and irritating. So you will probably find yourself working unhindered if you do decide to take the plunge, especially on a side-article such as on Discourses. But I think it would be a valuable contribution. Chris 17:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Excellent link
The link to the divine dream is a most helpful addition. As you see I started mentioning a bit of it, but was reluctant to interrupt here and there for further mentions along the way. This sums it all up in the best possible way. Hoverfish 21:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Evolution
- ...Meher Baba's explanations do not come to disprove any scientific discoveries of biological evolution, but rather examine a different side of the process.
Thank you, this is exactly right. It's depressing to have run into some Baba-lovers who have fallen for the "intelligent design" faux-metaphysics, especially given how clearly Baba himself explained everything in terms of the Whim and latent forces. There's a related statement re: science as just its own delimited method in the Discourses: “The so-called conflict between religion and science arises only when there is no appreciation of the relative importance of these two types of knowledge.”
- Yes, I agree there is a mistaken view that the so-called science/religion divide can be bridged by blending the two. It is two entirely different arenas. It is unfortunate that even Baba's words are often seen through the lens of old cliches, though he probably wouldn't have minded if their hearts were on straight. But I agree that Hoverfish did a great job on this section. Chris 00:57, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Images
I reduced a bit the size of the first image. I moved the board image to the left and added double break before Editions, so that in wider screens, Editions doesn't jump to the right of the image. If this makes too much space, I could think of something else. Hoverfish 19:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)