Talk:God Save the Queen
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[edit] Bilingual Canadian Often Sung Version????
I know it says this version is often sung, but I've never heard it before!!! Is it because it is only often sung in certain places, or have I been living under a rock for the past years?--72.137.205.70 18:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)Johanna
[edit] ???
what i think happened havnlt checked it orignally there wer4 verses here. then i added the two missing oens which which went before that scottish one. - fonzy
Does Northern Ireland have an alternate anthem? -- Zoe
- No, but you can chant "No surrender" between "God save the Queen" and "Send her victorious" in tune with the music, if you like. Jonathan3 21:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I think they played "Londonderry Air/Danny Boy" at the Commonwealth Games last year, but I'd never heard it done before, and it may just have been the NI Commonwealth Games Committee's idea. Usually one side of the community's happy with GStQ and the other side would just ignore it or boo. -- Arwel
I don't think there is an alternative anthem. I'm surprised, come to think of it, that it was never included in the Good Friday Agreement. After all, the renamed the police-force and incredibly created a new logo everyone could agree with, redesigned the symbolism for court rooms, created a new logo for the assembly, etc. I'm surprised they never touched the anthem, or found a mutually agreed one. I'll ask Steven King, David Trimble's special advisor, the next time I see him whether there is one in the pipeline or whether it never was touched. STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:41 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)
Anyone got anything to say about the tune (which I believe is called "America")? Deb 19:55 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)
I *think* the tune has the same name as the song - when the US was looking round for songs of its own they lifted the tune, used their own words, and created the "America" of which you speak. But I could well be wrong :) UPDATE: Bit of searching round, apparently the tune dates from the mid 1700s, and has been used a national tune quite commonly! Verloren
I believe the Swiss national anthem had the same tune until recently, and Liechtenstein's still does. Germany's did before 1918 as well. But, at any rate, this is a year old discussion. What I'm wondering about is the discussion of the last verse. This verse begs God to allow Marshal Wade to defeat the Scottish Jacobite armies. Marshal Wade was fighting the Scottish Jacobite armies in 1745, and was defeated by them and replaced by the Duke of Cumberland (apparently). But yet the article claims that this verse was added later than the song's origins in 1745. That doesn't make any sense - why would they add a verse about a defeated general beaten by an already defeated threat? It seems fairly clear that this verse must have been in the song originally, and to have quickly become obsolete. Anyone know about this? john k 03:40, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The reason not to include the full lyrics is because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a repository of songs, poems, documents, novels or anything else. See: Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. There is a sister wiki project, Wikisource, that has been designed precisely for the purpose of hosting primary source material like this. Putting this stuff on Wikipedia not only contradicts its purpose it also creates unnecessary duplication between the two sister projects. I dont think any one is going to be put out by having to click a single extra link to see the full text. Iota 18:07, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The reason for Wikisource's existance is as a repository for lengthy documents that don't belong in full in this project. A hundred or so words as in the lyrics to a national anthem do not need to be solely placed in Wikisource. In the process of removing the lyrics you also removed the link to Marshal George Wade. Thus making the link from that article to this one confusing. The stanza also contains the line "Rebellious Scots to crush" which is of some encyclopaedic interest don't you think? Indeed the article says This support caused the later attachment of a verse, shown last in the list below, which has an anti-Scottish sentiment, and is rarely (if ever) sung nowadays. You thus made this line confusing as the verse was no longer shown. Mintguy (T) 18:23, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Mintguy, I agree with you that the whole lyric should be listed here. But did you see my comment above? I'm dubious about the claim that the line about Wade crushing rebellious Scots could possibly be a later addition. Wade was defeated by the rebellious Scots very shortly after the very first performance of the song. It only makes sense that the verse about Wade was an original verse, which very quickly ceased to be sung because Wade himself was a failure. 19:00, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Wade wasn't defeated - Chas and co evaded his army on the way south - see Jacobite Rising - it was Cope who got bashed before this version of the song. A UKTVhistory programme claimed the song/tune was originally written for Louis of France and given to the Old Pretender in exile, but I've no other source for this so didn't try to add it. dave souza 07:00, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Canadian verse footnote call
There's a footnote call with no corresponding footnote on the last line of the English Canadian verse. Anyone knows what the note should be? Also, it's numbered 3, but there seems to be no 2. [User:Valmi|Valmi[User_talk:Valmi| ✒]] 05:13, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Protocol
Is it worth including a line about protocol in this. I read a while back that there was a muck-up when the queen visited america a few years back and they had it all arranged for her procession to parade in to the national anthem. But of course, she stops to receive the national anthem, which they played til the end, she carries on, they start again, etc. Quite the chaos because the British knew their protocol, and the American protocol was different. I can't find the date of the incident for the life of me though, yet...Graldensblud 01:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Ambig
I was a little surprised when the article implied that Deutschland Über Alles was based on the tune of God Save the Queen. I had to go listen to both to verify.
- They are not the same tune. Deutschland... is a tune by Haydn, inspired, as this article says, by the concept of an anthemn honoring the monarch. I have corrected the sentence in the article that implied, erroneously, that Siegerkranz was the Haydn tune. It was this tune. --StanZegel 04:46, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Handel and sexual relations with "George I's wife"
This is not in Mme de Créquy or her 19c 'editor'; and if true, needs to be sourced, and put under Handel and, but not here, where it isn't germane. At any rate, I suspect silliness or vandalism. Bill 13:32, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Verse 2 - vandalism?
Verse 2 (as currently shown) has to be a joke - the words just don't sound right! I'm not quite sure enough of this to delete it though. Can anyone else help? Thoughtcriminal 13:30, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Line missing?
Verse 2 is correct, which is one reason why it isn't heard very often. A choir director of mine had some fun when he was asked to put together a choir to sing at the university's 25th anniversary celebrations. Asked to include the National Anthem, he suggested that we should sing more than one verse, which was readily agreed to by the relevent authorities who knew less about it than he did - to their slight embarrassment when we actually sang the first three.
There seems to be a line missing from the 'alternative' verse 6 that starts "George is magnanimous". Every copy that I can find online seems to have been taken from this Wikipedia entry, other than three lines that are quoted in a John Buchan novel found at Project Gutenburg. What is the source of this verse, is there even any confirmation that it was really used, and if it's accurate what is the missing line?
- Yes, it is certainly missing. I've added a metrical filler in its place, and sent a note to the originator of the edit, asking him to reconstruct it.--StanZegel 05:43, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
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- The source is Bonnie Prince Charlie, Fitzroy Maclean, Canongate Books Ltd. 1989 ISBN 0-86241-568-3 page 142. It shows the "verse" as is, without the missing line, though with the third and last lines inset. Maclean doesn't give his source, there is "A select bibliography" at the end of the book, but nothing obvious....I'll change the formatting and add this source to the article...dave souza 11:58, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Composer of the tune?
I read this article and was very surprised to see that the composer is identified as Henry Carey. I recollected that the Oxford Companion to Music has a long analysis of the origin of the tune in which it completely dismisses Carey, under a heading of "An American Misattribution of the Tune". I checked and see that Scholes gives a convincing demolition of the Carey claim. He proposes that the attribution should be 'Traditional' or, possibly 'Traditional; earliest known version by John Bull, 1562-1628'. Is there any reliable source to support Carey? Bluewave 11:02, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Text was added that the tune is of Methodist/Christian origin. This is unsupported by any reference and at odds with the Scholes analysis of the origins. I have deleted this and suggest it should only be reinstated if supported by some evidence. Bluewave 09:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] The royal anthem in Norway?
Is this the royal anthem of Norway? Thought it was "Ja, vi elsker dette landet" (Yes, we love this country)?
[edit] Jerusalem
"There has been some debate about replacing God Save the Queen with Jerusalem, another patriotic song popular in England."
This line is in the opening few paragraphs in the article suggesting this is quite a prominent debate, which to all intents and purposes, it is not. More suggestively however, it implies that Jerusalem would replace God Save The Queen as the national anthem of the United Kingdom, which wouldn't happen since Jerusalem references England alone. While there may be debate to use Jerusalem at sporting events etc. for English teams, it is not a national (UK) debate and I think this line is poorly placed and misleading. --Ayrshire--77 14:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
- I've moved this line to the "Other UK Anthems" section of the article, under the international football entry. The weak nature of any real debate, which is intended to reserve GSTQ for UK national use rather than subnational (and thus neutralising the "England using the UK national anthem" argument), doesn't justify this statement's prominence in opening paragraphs, particularly without real explanation or supportive evidence. --Ayrshire--77 15:42, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ycchh!
Who added that awful synthesized voice file at the bottom? It sounds... well, it has synthesized voices, shouldn't that be enough? We should get rid of it.Agent_Koopa 02:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- It demonstrates the melody but... That's about it. A simple MIDI file can do that better if a suitible audio file cannot be found. The synthesized voice used currently is simply destracting, and you can't make out what it is saying anyway.DMAJohnson 03:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- Removed. There is no justification for those versions being there - they are just terrible, and add *nothing* to the article. If they belong anywhere on WP then it is in an article about speech synths in singing. But here? No, they are just a novelty. 138.37.199.199 10:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] God Save the King
Will this be changed to redirect to God Save the King when/if the Prince of Wales becomes king? Morhange 22:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
One would assume it will be moved to God Save the King, and other similar articles will do the same (Queen's Counsel, for instance). But seeing as the Queen is still alive, it stays here. john k 23:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Send her what?
What does "send her victorious" really mean? I reckon it's along the lines of "make her victorious" or "send her victory" but could someone please substantiate this assumption? Thanks, Maikel 20:53, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
-
- It's a rather clumsy 'split' sentence. The main meaning is: "Send her to reign over us for a long time", (and keep her victorious, happy and glorious while she is there). I am a native English-speaker, but I agree that this is probably a difficult line to translate. Most British are fond of, but not 'fanatical' about the anthem. Most of us get the third line wrong (and sing "God save OUR Queen"), and of course every two years the English insert an extra fourth line ("Da-da-da-da-da") and change the country's name to 'Enger-land' for a couple of weeks:-) (ChrisR, UK)
[edit] New Zealanders sing God Save the Queen in English but not Maori?
Is it true that when singing God Save the Queen in New Zealand, only English is used? I ask this as as the official information has no Maori lyrics there.--Jusjih 12:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
God Save the Queen is never sung in New Zealand. It is very strange that it has been includeed here. The only New Zealand Anthem is God Defend New Zealand.
- Because they are both legally New Zealand's national anthems Ignorantia juris non excusat: "On Monday, 21 November 1977, then Minister of Internal Affairs Hon D A Highet, announced in the New Zealand Gazette 'that the National Anthems of New Zealand shall be the traditional anthem 'God Save The Queen' and the poem 'God Defend New Zealand', written by Thomas Bracken, as set to music by John Joseph Woods, both being of equal status as national anthems appropriate to the occasion'. This action was given with the consent of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II." Brian | (Talk) 10:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] History of God save the Queen, a French origin
The origin of God save the King/Queen is the song "Grand Dieu sauve le Roi", which words were written by Duchess de Brinon. The melody was written by Lully, to celebrate the Louis XIV's cure in 1686 (a dent problem).
It was translated to latin "Domine, salvum fac regem" and then became the Royal anthem for France until 1792.
When the catholic king of England Jack II of England (Jack VII of Scotland) came to Saint-Germain-en-Laye, after his deposition by his protestant son-in-law William of Orange, he discovered its music. Later, his partisans will arrive in England, singing this anthem in his honnor.
It is after Culloden's battle that permitted to the Stuarts to come back to power that the Hanovre family, victorious, will choose this anthem as a royal anthem for Great Britain.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fredjoyb (talk • contribs) 20:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Already covered in History section ...dave souza, talk 20:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Is it really a national anthemn ?
I just read on [[1]] that GOD SAVE THE QUEEN is sung in the United Kingdom as a matter of tradition. It has never been proclaimed the national anthem by an Act of Parliament or a Royal Proclamation. Is that correct (in which case the introduction to this article should be changed?)
- I think the article makes it clear that it has been adopted by the nation as a national anthem but that it has never been formerly proclaimed as such by law. There is no reason to prevent a nation adopting a national anthem through common usage, rather than proclamation. Bluewave 16:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] King?
At the present moment, as Queen Elizabeth II is in reign, I think that it is appropriate that every instance to "King/Queen" should be removed and replaced simply with "Queen". A note at the end explaining that the song is sung with "King" and "his" and "he" when the reigning monarch is male would be sufficient.
The main reason I think this should be done is because the article reads rather clumsily in its present state. It may have originally been written as "God Save The King" but the song is so old now that the details of its creation are now auxiliary to the details of it's use in popular culture.
Similarly, once Charles/William accedes to the throne the article should be changed to the lyrics appropriate for a male monarch and an explanatory note explaining its change of lyrics when a female reigns would be appropriate.
Thoughts?
"God save the King" gets redirected to here, so if/when the crown passes to a king, the redirect can just be switched.
And sign your comments in future! Joevsimp 15:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Not/Nor in/on this land alone" verse - date?
We've got two stories here: this verse is claimed to be one of the original 6 ("Although in the original lyrics, verses 4–6 ...") but later included under " In 1836, William Edward Hickson wrote four alternative verses: ...". Does anyone know the facts?
[edit] Yet another version
I think I saw another version of the National Anthem in a Ulster Free Presbyterian hymnbook with "Frustrate their knavish tricks" replaced by "Frustrate their popish tricks". Would this be worth mentioning anywhere? -- the GREAT Gavini 14:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
| I think it would be worth putting in there somewhere, as it is another perception and historically it would have been somethign that would have been sung alot in Ulster being the Protestant part of Ireland, now called Northern Ireland. Tony 10/10/06 8:41 BST
- I had always thought that "popish tricks" was an old version (rather than a Free P version) and a quick google search came up with this: "...slight amendment... made at the request of King George V. He asked that the line 'Frustrate their popish tricks' should be changed to 'Frustrate their knavish tricks'." http://www.stgeorgesnews.org/2005/04f05.htm Jonathan3 21:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bold
Is there any need for the song title to be in bold throughout? That isn't a standard practice. Biruitorul 01:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- Fixed. Vilĉjo 16:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Same as "America"
In the text, it notes U.S. song "My Country 'tis of thee" is different words to the same tune - which is true. But the it states that "America" (Oh! beautiful for spacious skies/ for amber waves of grain) is also sung to the same verse - which is clearly NOT true. I am a novice at wikipedia, but took the liberty of editing this out. (now where is the damn tilda ?)Lorenzo10 01:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- That's good, you took it out fine. As for the tilde, it is above the Tab key and next to the 1. You will have to press shift in order for the tilde to work. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 01:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Verse about the Scots
I have made several edits today including some changes to what the article says about the verse regarding the crushing of the Scots. This verse appears to have been very short-lived (it wasn't in the published 1745 version and had become an almost-forgotten curiosity by 1836) and I have found a couple of references to support that. I noticed that Alistair McConnachie issued a challenge in 1999 in the letters pages of The Herald for anybody to show him printed evidence in a programme from an official function anywhere in the world, in the last 250 years, which proved that this "rebellious Scots" verse had ever been sung. He says "I'm still waiting, and I don't expect to be surprised anytime soon." Bluewave 16:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- I have now made some bolder changes, including trimming some of the lyrics section. This article was perpetuating a version of the song which is reproduced on lots of internet sites but is grossly misleading. For example, it implied an accepted numbering of verses (which there isn't) and gave a strange ordering of verses. For example, it listed the Marshal Wade verse as "verse 6" and "Not in this land alone" as "verse 4". The problem with this is that "Not (actually Nor) in this land alone" was written in 1836, by which stage, the Marshal Wade verse had been almost forgotten, so that numbering seems wierd. It certainly seems best not to perpetuate this misleading listing of verses (hence my edits). Bluewave 17:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
