Talk:Gino Perente

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Contents 1 Doeden ?= Perente 2 Notes on sources 3 New Discussion 4 Obituary and Birthdate

[edit] Doeden ?= Perente

This entire article has been deleted, because the history of contributions and edits demonstrates that it is not currently possible to construct an article on this subject which meets Wikipedia's standards of neutrality, and reliance on widely accepted published primary sources.

This individual is of no interest to 99% of English-speaking readers. Those who are interested fall almost exclusively into two categories: those who are deeply and sincerely devoted to Gino Perente's life work and memory, and those who deeply and sincerely despise him, and want the world to know it, even eleven years after his death. Likewise, the paucity of "primary sources" are all subject to one of two criticisms: they either rely on information provided by Perente's closest associates, or they rely on personal anecdotes offered by, and compiled by, his most bitter critics.

That's two strikes: no foundation of neutrality, and no credible primary sources.

There does not seem to be much interest among authors and academics in preparing a thoroughly researched biography (whether laudatory or critical) either, which means in the forseeable future, no credible primary sources. If Wikipedia expands its scope and purpose, to serve as a platform for collecting primary sources, then perhaps a format could be developed in which each contribution is protected from edit by those of contrary prejudices, while none are presented as definitive or reliable. All would then serve as source material for anyone who cared to compile something more comprehensive.

The incessant squabble over the man's real name exemplifies why no objective, neutral article is possible. Critics axiomatically accept that he was born Gerald William Doden in Minnesota, and dismiss any questions or doubts. Associates, colleagues and mentees, present or former, generally adhere to his own account that he was born in Montana in 1935. The closest thing to an objective source is a third hand reference to an anonymous verbal remark that someone once recognized a photo of Perente as being a photo of Doden. This trite detail has produced endless cycles of edits and counter-edits, providing no discernible enlightenment to any hypothetical objective reader seeking reliable information.

The related article on National Labor Federation has, so far, retained a precarious balance, although it is susceptible to similar criticisms. Reliable primary sources are limited, and some of the most detailed factual information appears to be more or less primary material, supported by a tenuous collection of old news articles and church-funding-source newsletters. But old news articles are better than nothing. Despite the obvious prejudices of almost all contributors, a certain mutual courtesy has allowed for an article that conveys a full spectrum of controversial viewpoints.

To serve the limited possibility that an article could eventually re-emerge which meets Wikipedia's standards, a brief outline of commonly accepted facts would include:

A man known by the name of Eugenio (Gino) Perente, assigned to direct the United Farm Workers Organizing Committee boycott in New York City for a little less than a year in 1971, was contacted by invididuals from Suffolk County, Long Island toward the end of the year. They included members of the League of Women Voters and the local chapter of the Black Panther Party. A request that UFWOC begin organizing farm workers on Long Island was conveyed to UFWOC President Cesar Chavez, who declined, citing commitments in California, Texas and Florida. Perente then resigned his position with the UFWOC boycott, and began organizing Eastern Farm Workers Association, in the capacity of Field Director.

Perente said he was born in Montana in 1935, the son of ...

About 1981, critics began publicizing an account that Eugenio Perente was really Gerald William Doden, born in Minnesota in ...

Both purported biographies intersect at the Little Red Bookstore in San Francisco around 1970.

Perente retired from active work with EFWA by 1977. From that time until his undoubted death March 18, 1995, subsequent funeral, and burial under the name Engenio Perente-Ramos, he provided the ideological leadership for a number of full time organizers in various organizing drives, patterned after EFWA, known collectively as National Labor Federation. He openly based his teaching on the writings of Marx, Engels, Lenin, limited selections from Stalin, Mao Zedong and Che Guevara, and Fidel Castro. He also drew on a wide variety of published historians and authors, American trade union leaders, Greek philosophers, former U.S. presidents, and any other material that suited his purpose. (Since the local NATLFED entities do not conform to any definition of Marxist organization, the relationship of Perente's philosophy to the local organizing drives is obscure, and a topic of controversy. Since critics tend to be self-identified "leftists" who deny Perente left-wing legitimacy, the controversy itself tends to become tangled and unfathomable.)

Two obituaries were published in the New York Times within 24 hours of each other. One relied on information provided by two of Perente's closest associates. The other relied on information provided by some of his most persistent and bitter critics. It is anybody's guess which one is accurate, or if either one is accurate, but they are both published primary sources in a respected daily newspaper. Llawnrodded

Please, read WP:Verifiability. I'm not saying it ain't true, but The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it. Whosasking 17:16, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

• Perente was an organizer with Agricultural Workers Organizing Committee in the San Joaquin Valley from 1958-1963, and participated in the grape strike that led to AWOC's merger with Cesar-Chavez's National Farm Workers Association to form the United Farm Workers Organizing Committee, the predecessor of United Farm Workers of America (UFW)
• Perente also talked of having worked at this bookstore, the first definite connection between the two names.
• Gino Perente . . . was asked by Cesar Chavez to coordinate boycott campaigns at the New York office of UFWOC. After leading a successful wine boycott, Perente subsequently responded to requests from Suffolk County residents, and left UFW to form EFWA.
• Perente gave lectures interpreting the writings of . . . Adam Smith, Disraeli, Aristotle,
• A good deal of Perente's expansive recitation of world history can be traced to such historical novels as A Supply of Heroes (about the Irish uprising of 1916 and the British military in World War I), Man's Fate (Andre Malraux's novel about the Chinese revolution in Shanghai in 1927) and Kenneth Roberts's series on early American history, particularly Oliver Wiswell and A Rabble in Arms.
• Unconfirmed reports have inferred that he was born Gerald William Doeden.

Added to the list of unverified statements:

• (Perente's role in the Agricultural Workers Organizing Committee, AFL-CIO, 1959-1964, pre-dated AWOC's merger with Cesar Chavez's National Farm Workers Association, where Huerta began her organizing career.)
• also drawing on the teachings of Herbert Hoover, Mahatma Gandhi, as well as the historical fiction of Gore Vidal, Andre Malraux, and Kenneth Roberts,
• where a few UFW and EFWA supporters had been tenants in the 1970s, and where Perente sometimes stayed

Whosasking 02:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, let's start with the NY Times article by Gerald McFadden. Much of what is questioned here is openly reported there. Next, let's deal with the obvious retort: that was an obit based entirely on information provided by close associates of Perente.

Now, let's be real about this whole subject. There are NO objective sources. Only two kinds of people have taken any interest in Perente at all: those who are deeply devoted to him, and those who despise him. That includes ALL the academic material cited on Wikipedia. There is no reliable, objective, documented proof that he even mentioned Marx or Lenin, although anyone who ever met him would indeed confirm that he did. (All second hand repetition of primary sources, which nobody ever bothered to document).

So, we can cancel the whole idea that Wikipedia could even attempt to post information on this subject, consistent with its own stated principles, and erase everything, or we could continue to post information that has some reasonable basis, recognizing that there are a lot of strong opinions both ways. User:Llawnrodded

Thank you for a succinct summary of the issue at hand--you are absolutely right, no one seems ever to have taken interest in Perente who did not either love or despise him.

To the extent that there are differing reports of Perente's biography reported elsewhere, I think we should repeat both, with careful attention to attribution. You are right in that there are (at least two) versions of his early biography, and both deserve text in the article.

If an unsourced statement is controversial in any regard, however, it should be sourced or removed. Note that this protocol is enforced only through the objections of other editors. Whosasking 19:47, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Unverified assertions from the revision of 13 June 2006:

• [Perente] was contacted by invididuals from Suffolk County, Long Island toward the end of the year. They included members of the League of Women Voters and the local chapter of the Black Panther Party. A request that UFWOC begin organizing farm workers on Long Island was conveyed to UFWOC President Cesar Chavez, who declined, citing commitments in California, Texas and Florida.
• Perente said he was born in Montana in 1935, the son of ...
• Both purported biographies intersect at the Little Red Bookstore in San Francisco around 1970.

The details of the origins of EFWA are not verifiable, so they don't go in an encyclopedia article. Wikipedia is not an oral history project. Whosasking 18:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notes on sources

The New York Times said nothing bad about Perente or his organizing drive before the obituaries, and had nothing good after. The Times' reporting doesn't require an editorial frame. Note, though, the Times never called natlfed a cult--they called it 'cult-like,' interviewed people who denounced it as a cult, but they did not use the word themselves.

Wikipedia guidance on reliable sources can be found at WP:RS. User:Whosasking 18:54 15 May 2006

The personal experience of the editors and the oral history of the organizing drives are original research, not encyclopedia material. I contend that Perente's claims about his own history should be verifiable--we should find a printed (not necessarily reliable) source for who he said he was. The recently rewritten article has some oral history, but no references. Whosasking 16:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Discussion

There are scores of published sources about the National Labor Federation and related groups. To claim otherwise is false. Many of these articles are not available on the Internet, but are available from online newspaper and magazine archives, and inter-library loan. I have restored the text. Please post all future comments at the bottom of the page. Deletion of most of the text without a vote for deletion is against Wikipedia policy.--Cberlet 02:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Obituary and Birthdate

Eugeniojerry ParenteRamosDoeden, or whatever his name was, definitely deserves an article in Wikipedia, if only because he may be the only person who has ever been given a long obituary by the New York Times, followed a day or two later by a correction that was about twice as long. (His ex-wife contacted the paper and set them straight.) Incidentally, there was also a New York Times article published in December 1972 (possibly November or January) that reported at some length on the strike (or whatever it was) at the I.M. Young potato-processing operation in Riverhead NY - with a big photo of Gino/jerry.

About the birthdate: In 1972, Perente told a recently-recruited astrologer that he was born November 20th 1938. The astrologer, who had observed Perente's way with his female cadre, asked him if was sure it wasn't 1934 - since that was the year Charles Manson had been born, also in November. Perente's jaw dropped but he recovered his composure and insisted it was 1938 - but on other occasions said it was 1939. In his (corrected) obituary, the date of birth was given as 20 November 1934.

About the obituaries (which I just noticed were discussed above): The first obituary was generally myth-mongering, with only tenuous and coincidental connections with reality. I have no reason to doubt anything in the second (corrected) obit, although I had no direct experience of his early life, other than certain knowledge that he did indeed have a daughter.

However, Chip Berlet's Private Eye articles and similar debunking are far from reliable sources. The general thesis that a corrupt and cult-like organization using deception for recruitment and fund-raising is on target, but many of the details in such sources are incorrect. In particular, the allegations of a close, long-lasting relationship with Lyndon LaRouche's groups are inaccurate.

Which obituary gives his birthdate as November 20? The first obituary in the Times is vague about the date, and the second didn't mention his birthdate except by giving his age. Whosasking 02:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Those who might have an interest in Perente's life story would also include the families and friends of those who are still in Natlfed, the full time volunteer organizers in Natlfed if they could be gotten to read the article, and those who are considering giving Natlfed a considerable time committment. Gino's personal rendition of his organizing, communist, and military experience gave him credibility when I was in Natlfed, and were used as a basis for Communist Party Provisional's official history or genesis. The fact that all he said is in question might make a difference to someone. As for objective sources - there are none. Newspaper articles may have some guidelines towards content, but they, as all other sources start with information given by a person. People are not objective no matter how hard they try to be. If you trace any source back through it's sources and through the source of the sources and so on, you will find that they come back to this. All that can be relayed is what is said from other sources and if those sources are identified then people can decide for themselves how much credibility to give them. First hand information from people who knew Perente may end up more objective than newspaper articles and more accurate. But, if it is first hand, it should state the source. Robin Fahlberg