Talk:Ginny Weasley

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Certainly close to Featured Article status - although it should perhaps go though the step of acquiring Good Article status first. This would enable editors to target more areas for improvement before this exalted level is proclaimed. The main concern I would have is the need for more third party content, verifiable of course and this with plenty of citations and references. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 10:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
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Ginny Weasley was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake.

Date of review: 10 December 2006

May 2004-August2006

Contents

[edit] Date of Birth

Can someone please tell me where they found the supposed Date of Birth for the Harry Potter characters? I've found no evidence to suggest these dates are true. And I mean evidence from the actual books. Written by JK Rowling. Any other dates of birth given by other sources should NOT be used as evidence as this, as it is not confirmed by the author.

"All you need to know about Harry Potter" books, not accepted if they are written by someone else. Sorry!

So unless someone can confirm that the author has said this is the date of birth for the characters, I will be deleting this within the next few days. Paul Norfolk Dumpling 19:34, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Ginny's and many other characters' dates of birth have appeared on JK Rowling's website, where she has told us she writes all of the text herself (thus making it canonical). Happy birthday wishes to Ginny have appeared on August 11 each of the last three years. Look at http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/sources/jkr.com/jkr-com.html and http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/sources/jkr.com/jkr-com-birthdays.html for more information. --Zequist 01:30, 1 April 2007

(UTC)

Yes, it does show the birth date, but where does it include the year of birth? Sorry, will be deleting it, unless someone can show me. Paul Norfolk Dumpling 12:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

She's never stated a year for Ginny, but she doesn't have to because with the canon information that she has given us it can only be 1981, and ironically we have Malfoy to thank for knowing that. The short answer is that we have canon information that Draco was born in 1980, therefore because of Hogwarts' admission rules Ron must also have been born in 1980, and since Rowling has told us that Ginny is a year younger than Ron, she must have been born in 1981. For the more detailed explanation and all the source links, keep reading.
  • Canon point 1 - On the "Black Family Tree" that Rowling hand-wrote and then donated to Book Aid International for them to auction last year she explicitly told us that Draco Malfoy was born in 1980. There's no sparkling hi-res photo of the thing online that I can find, just one that's so-so, but it was on display before the auction and many fans looked at it and reported the information that was on it to message boards and to the big HP news sites, so the 1980 date is definitely confirmed. (sources: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/images/blackfamilytrees/fromlarepubblica0212.JPG - Draco is in the lower right, http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/whats_new-2006.php?year=2006 - scroll down to Feb. 12 and Feb. 20, and http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/blackfamilytree.html)
  • Canon point 2 - Rowling has told us that you must be at least 11 to attend Hogwarts, and that Hermione was nearly 12 at the start of the series (source: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=90). This establishes that the birth window for any given class of Hogwarts students runs from the beginning of September through the end of August the following year (Hermione was born on September 19 and is one of the oldest in their year; Harry, being born on July 31, is one of the youngest).
  • Canon point 3 - She's given us Draco's birth date on her web site. It's June 5. He was therefore born on June 5, 1980, and is one of the younger students in the class. (source: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/sources/jkr.com/jkr-com-birthdays.html)
  • Therefore - Draco being born on June 5, 1980 and 11 being the minimum age to attend Hogwarts canonically establishes the following:
    • It means the students in Harry's year were born from September of 1979 through August of 1980, and they made their first trip to Hogwarts on Sept. 1, 1991.
    • It sets the time frame of the books at 1991-92 (Sorcerer's Stone) through 1997-98 (Deathly Hallows).
    • It fixes the birth dates of Hermione on Sept. 19, 1979, Ron on March 1, 1980, and Harry on July 31, 1980 (the dates are all explicitly given in the books or by Rowling, the years must be true because of Draco being born in June of 1980).
    • The above three points are corroborated by Canon points 4 and 5 - Sir Nick celebrates his "500th Deathday" in Book 2 Ch. 8, and the date of his execution is given on the cake as "October 31, 1492." 500 years added to 1492 puts the Deathday Party on October 31, 1992, which is consistent with Harry and Draco being born in 1980 and in their second year (1992-93) at the time of the party. Also Book 6 Chapters 21 and 22 re-confirms the Hermione-Ron-Draco-Harry sequence of their births - Ron and Hermione are old enough to take their apparition tests on April 21 of their sixth year (and therefore have turned 17 by then) but Draco and Harry are still too young.
So taking that back to Ginny, we don't need it written in blood to know her canonical birth year. Rowling has told us Ginny's birthday is August 11 (as previously cited), and she's also told us that Ron is one year older than Ginny (source: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=63). That of course is also consistent with the fact that she's one year behind Ron in school, so since we know that Draco being born in June of 1980 puts Ron's birth in March of 1980, Ginny could only be born in 1981. August 11, 1981 makes her a year younger than Ron like she's supposed to be, and neatly within the window for turning 11 in time to attend Hogwarts in book 2. Had she been born in 1980 she'd be the same age (and in the same year) as Ron, and had she been born in 1982 she'd be two years younger and too young to attend Hogwarts until book 3. --Zequist 22:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Newer Picture

I think the article could use a newer picture. One where she is older or in her robes would be more appropriate I think, since she is now a major character in the series.

John Reaves 20:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


I don't think this has been done yet. Since the new movie is comming out soon, perhaps we could source a promotional photo of Bonnie Wright in her hogwarts robes? GavinTing 14:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Choice of Words

How am I being negative? The word 'disreputable' means that they have rather a poor reputation in the wizarding world: partly because of their Bloodtraitor status, partly because of Arthur's plug fetish. I thought that Rowling had very thoroughly made it clear that, yes, they are superficially a nice family (even if they have a tendency to scream in public, bully Neville and other students, ostracise family members that don't agree with an old man who appears to going senile, ostracise friends of the family because they believe Rita Skeeter's trash, spout mysogynistic comments, allow themselves to be bought off with money and presents, behave appallingly towards a new prospective member of the family - and in the process totally ignore the fact that the son has chosen her as his wife, attempt to murder Slytherins in vanishing cabinets merely for attempting to take points, etc, etc, the list does go on), but that they aren't particularly well thought of in wizarding society. How would you define 'disreputable'? Michaelsanders 01:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

As for close-knit: I'm not sure that that is appropriate (Percy is cut-off, the twins have an on-off relationship with their mother, Molly spends most of her time telling the kids off or telling Arthur to shut up about his muggle rubbish) and no-one appears to have given any thought to Bill whilst they were busily abusing Fleur... Michaelsanders 01:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I would define 'disreputable' as not being respectable in character and having a negative reputation. The Weasley's are only viewed as "bloodtraitor" by a small sect of pure-blood wizards, most of whom dabble in the Dark Arts. Any reasonable person could deduct from the text of the series that they are portrayed as loyal, courageous, kind, accepting, etc. I hardly think that the opinion of a sector of wizarding society that essentially lives on the fringes of society is a valid one. All families have discontent, What mom doesn't tell of her children? The Twins squabbles are harldy anything serious. I'll give you the Percy fact, though the remaining family is close-knit. Molly's occasional comment to Arthur is hardly notable. After Bill was attacked by Fenrir Greyback and they found out he would retain scars for life, Fleur still stuck with him, and Molly accepted her.John Reaves 02:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
But the Weasleys do have a negative reputation: not amongst us readers, who have seen them in private, but amongst wizarding society (Crouch hardly seemed keen on Arthur, and Bagman - who did like Arthur - seems to have based his mateyness on the fact that Mr Weasley was willing to accept a bribe in exchange for not charging Otto Bagman. In any case, we seem to be regarding the idea of reputation differently: I am taking it as 'opinion amongst their fellows, in particular the purebloods, which they are included amongst'; you are taking it as 'opinion amongst the readers', who for very obvious reasons are not part of wizarding society. For a realworld comparison, consider the various 'ladies (or men) of ill-repute' who have nonetheless been popular amongst readers (I can't think of any of the top of my head - I don't remember if Nancy in Oliver Twist is actually such a woman, but I think she is pretty popular amongst readers). But in any case, the opinion of the other purebloods (who still appear to be a dominant caste - the ministy was hardly in open rebellion over Malfoy's influence) is that they are bloodtraitors (or thus far, at least; we don't know what the Longbottom web thinks, except of Ron personally, and I suspect that if Neville's gran heard anything about the twins' bullying, it would not give her a good impression); on the rest of society, we have been led to believe that other wizards are rather scornful of the Weasley's because of Mr Weasley's blatant yet uniformed muggle fetish (and because they have a tendency to brawl in public). As for close-knit, I really disagree about that. By the sixth book, they have shown a degree of alliance together, partly because of Voldemort, partly because they are all scapegoating Percy. But in the first four books - where they are in their 'natural' state, they are quite clearly portrayed as factional - Molly and Percy vs the twins, twins vs Ron, twins vs Ginny, Ron vs Ginny, Molly vs Arthur, Arthur and the two eldest staying firmly out of it. How is that close knit, when there is a blatant amount of hostility between the various members?
I also think that there should be more mention of those occasional bouts of what I would term either nastiness or viciousness from Ginny (you are welcome to suggest an alternative term). She is unpleasant about Percy (despite his being the only family member willing to stand up for her in her first year); she is unnecessarily unpleasant about Fleur, and shows no regard at all for the fact that Bill wants to marry the woman (and we get no indication that he bothered to stick up for Fleur, or impress upon the family that she was his fiancee, so they were to stop criticising her); she is almost scientifically horrible to Ron, rubbing his nose in the fact that he has never had a girlfriend and that Harry and Hermione have both had relationships (despite the fact that she knows he gets horribly jealous of both of them, and is likely to have observed that he and Hermione both wanted to go to the Slug Club together, if not more), and deliberately hurts him emotionally (making disturbing comments about him supposedly having a crush on his aunt). That is a pattern of behaviour, of the sort you requested evidence for, and I think it ought to be referred to. Thanks. Michaelsanders 13:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
That is hardly "viciousness", it's harmless sibling/teasing/joshing/etc. Percy has estranged himself from the entire family, she treats them just as the other do: with little regard except for the occasional disparaging remark. True, she did treat Fleur poorly, behind her back, but with the events of the attack on Bill, and Molly's acceptance of her as her future daughter-in-law, Ginny's stance should know be considered unknown. Her attacks on Ron were provoked by his older-brother jealousy/protectiveness comments and behavior. The view we see should be the view represented in the article, it is in keeping with canon and prevents articles being written in a in-universe style.

John Reaves 13:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Between Ginny and the three mentioned, it is both nasty and disproportionate - her reaction to Ron's mildly offensive comments about her was far more offensive (it was reminiscent of Morfin Gaunt's taunting of Merope). And how many 'close-knit' families have that amount of back-biting? Disfunctional seems to be the more generally applied term, appropriate or not. Broken home is another such term. I would really disagree with referring to them as a close-knit family. As for the use of the term 'disreputable', it is hardly essential for inclusion in this article, but I feel that it is nothing more than a statement of the family's status within wizarding society. Michaelsanders 14:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Surely you're not suggesting a relation to the Gaunts? That's what makes them "close-knit" or whatever term you'd like to use, that type of harmless interaction makes them the tight clan that they are. And you already know my views on "disreputable". John Reaves 14:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
You do have an active imagination. I am not suggesting any OR kinship between the Gaunts and the Weasleys. I am pointing out that few people would hesitate to condemn Morfin, yet similar behaviour from Ginny does not, according to yourself, even merit the term 'nasty'. And no, the behaviour between the Weasley family members does not make them a tight clan, and it is not harmless. It is damaging destructve: look at the state of affairs prior to the end of GOF, look at how easily they all slung Percy out, largely through the groundwork laid in the first four books. Look at how disunited and argumentative, and less than satisfied they were in the first four books, before they went into their fear huddle. Consider Ron and Molly's relationship (sandwiches she knows he hates the first time ever he leaves home at eleven, jumpers she knows he hates every christmas - what, she couldn't buy a different coloured wool, in between making Harry his elaborate jerseys? -, doesn't bother to buy him or find him a new wand - he didn't tell her it was broken, but the school would have written, he couldn't do his lessons properly with that thing - robes which she does nothing to make more amenable, instead handing them to him in a 'sod you' attitude whilst going to a great deal of trouble to buy Harry robes she thinks will suit him), which only changes when he becomes a prefect and she sees him as a Percy alternative, a new child to play as favourite. Consider that Bill and Charlie went as far from home as possible as soon as they left Hogwarts, and that Bill only returned when he was called up by Dumbledore (and Charlie still managed to wiggle out of returning). That is not a happy family, that is not a tight knit or united family, that is a supremely damaged family, one which is only waiting for all the kids to leave home before it ends up disintegrating into a disparate group of people who only meet at Christmas. Actually give it real consideration - can you think of any family in real life who act like the Weasleys and yet are described as happy or close-knit? Because I cannot. Michaelsanders 14:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
How are they similar? Ginny's behavior is hardly equivalent to Morfin's, Ginny has never terrified and torturedo Ron to the point that Morfin did to Merope. Percy ostacized himself, and only after repeated attempts of reconciliation did the family, especially Molly, give up hope. These are minor squabbles, hardly the types of things that tear familes apart. Perhaps you are forgetting that they are poor? Harry owned no robes, and his were most likely paid for by hi emmense fortune. Romania and Egypt are hardly "as far from home as possible" It has been stated that Bill and Charlie have a difficult time getting away from work, and they probably lack the financial means needed for frequent travel. Fortunately, this is a work of fiction, and somehow the Weasley's maintain a close-knit relationship through all thier "hardship." John Reaves 15:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Percy walked out, yes. They did nothing to stop him, instead seeming to gloat that he was gone ('"I think we're well shot of him", said George, with an uncharacteristically ugly look on his face' - well, isn't that loving and close-knit?). They did little to bring him back, with the exception of Molly. I am not forgetting that they are poor at all. The robes issue is not relevant because he got *better* robes, but because Molly took the trouble to choose them carefully, so that he could look his best. By contrast, giving Ron a pair of robes which were not only second hand (so what) but ugly (that was the *best* the shops had?), and which she clearly expended no time on to make at all more presentable, even when Ron told her that they were ugly (Ron managed to get them looking more presentable using a severing charm. Molly couldn't - or didn't - even do that? The woman is a skilled knitter, she'll have enough basic sewing skills to make the things more presentable). In any case, if a mother expends more care, attention and effort on her son's friend than the son himself, then something is very wrong. Rumania and Egypt - the dragons are kept in the wilds of Rumania, making it very difficult, even without the expense, for regular visits (given that there are Welsh and Hebridean dragons, if they really were so close-knit, Charlie could have worked with those, and been much nearer). Egypt, we don't know about. We do know that it is too far for it to be anything more than an occasional holiday. That doesn't sound close knit. And what about you? How do you reason that this perenially arguing, unhappy, factional family is close-knit? At all?

Lets keep this on the Weasley family page. I've already answered there. It's been established that dragons are kept in seculded sanctuaries and are strictly controlled. We getting into canon issues that cannot be verified. He took a job doing what he liked, this hardly escaping his family. John Reaves 15:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

Shoot, I know I wrote up a big long review of this article when I read it, but it doesn't seem to have been saved. The last section the Half Blood Prince needs to worked on, particularly the paragraph wherein Ron gets poisoned. I personally think there needs to be some citations, particularly in some of the less known facts. There were some other observations that I had, but I'm going to have to re-read the article to make them. Her dating Michael Cronner occurred in which book? I'll try to get back to this article to give you more of a critique, but those were the points that I remember off the top of my head.Balloonman 03:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that the article is way better than what it was a few months ago but ALL of the quotes form the books need to be refrenced (with page numbers). Dalf | Talk 02:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Failed

I am sorry to say that I failed Ginny Weasley for GA. Here the reasons as of WP:WIAGA.

  1. Well written: neutral - the opening section could be better as of WP:LEAD.
  2. Verifiable: FAIL - far too little references. Much of the text is borderline WP:NOR. -
  3. Broad: FAIL - no words about real-life phenonema, such as e.g. on Shipping_(fandom). Also, the article is mostly firmly in-universe, thus violating WP:WAF, which article about fiction must adhere to. Also, WP:NOT dictates "wikipedia is not a plot summary", which most of the article unfortunately is. If a Wikipedian comes and slashes 90% of the "Role in the books" out, you will have a hard time arguing against her/ him.
  4. NPOV: Pass.
  5. Stable: Pass.
  6. Images: FAIL - where is the fair use rationale of the Bonnie Wright picture? See e.g. Scarlett Johansson how to do it correctly. Weak pass - ok for now, but I am wary of images without explicit Fair Use rationale, especially in GAs or FAs
  7. Misc: please read WP:WAF carefully before renominating, especially WP:WAF#Out-of-universe_perspective
  8. Misc2: also WP:CITET (cite book) should be applied. I really would like to see facts backed up by lines like (X happens) "HP4: p 199-210" or "Y happens) "HP2: p.21-25" or such.
  9. Misc3: this article was on hold for (edit) 7 days, but no major improvements (referencing!) were made

Sorry, but this article still needs work before becoming a GA. Still, happy wiki-ing! —Onomatopoeia 15:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  1. Can you give some more detail here? I have not worked on this article in a while and when I did it was mostly deleting stuff that was inapproprate but the opening seems to be pretty good at the moment.
  2. I agree 100% in addition to what I said above about all of the quotes or refrences to the books need to have ref tags and have page numbers there is a small amouhnt of as you say borderling litrary criticism that nees to be refrenced (but not as bad as it use to be)
  3. I had the same thought about the shippign stuff. I think it was removed because it was bate for people who wanted to editoralize, and made NPOV hard. I think there are a few reputable fan sites (especially the ones that JKR has called out as good) which are firmly established that can be used as good secondary sources for this. There are a number of other fan sites that can be (very carfully) used as primary sources but that is a bit tricky and hard to keep people in line. Regardless the materal needs to be covered or the article is incompete. I disagree about the role in the books stuff being in danger, it is based almost completely in the facts of "there were the scenes she was in" and thre is a minimum litrary criticism (Which woudl be in danger) if someone simply adds page numbers to everythign in quotation marks or secene refrences then that shoudl be fine.
  4. I was suprised at how NPOV it manged to be though it did so by simply removing the sections that were problematic. Once the coverate is restored this one might be a problem.
  5. Ok
  6. I am annoyed by the use of the movie actors pictures for Harry Potter charcter articles. The move version of hte univers is diffrent in amny ways from the books and we really should get some wikipedian to provide some images with proper copyright that are not photographs of actors. I would not want any harry potter article as GA if it is exclusivly illastrated with pictures from the movies or pictures of the actors form the movies.
  7. Can you give some examples of the Out-of-Univers standard that you feel have been violated? This article talks about her role in the books in terms of the main character, it is never confusing about what is real and what is not. Everything is written in terms of scenes and chapters. If there is a problem here it is small.
  8. Amen!!
  9. The refrenceing is the biggets problem IMHO.
Dalf | Talk 22:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Could someone please give examples of what needs citations from the book? Tagging them in the article (or at least some) would be useful. Also, examples for formating the citations. Seems to me that having them all inline would clutter the page. Perhaps a footnote type format would be better. Also, thanks for the reviews. John Reaves 06:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
As of WP:LEAD, I can demand for a mid-length article that it limits itself to 2 concise paragraphs. It also contains a plot spoiler (looks ugly); the Weasley family info should come lower, and not in the lead. As of WP:WAF, please apply a real-life POV: e.g. "In 1997, K.K. Rowling wrote (HP1) and introduces Ginny as the younger sister of Ronald (ref => add chapter, and if you add pages, also version, British or American, as page numbers differ)". To give a more elaborate example, here how I would start the HP2 section:
Have a look at Horcrux that article mostly uses the correct style. Dalf | Talk 07:36, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
In Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (1998), Rowling fleshes out the character of Ginny. Rowling involves her more, letting her attending Hogwarts, a year after Harry and her brother Ron. While she appears to play a mostly behind-the-scenes role in the book — looking mysteriously ill(ref: HP2, chapter x) and providing light humour with her obvious crush on Harry —(ref: HP2, chapter x), Rowling established that Ginny turns out to be behind the year's biggest mystery, a series of unexplained attacks that leave several Muggle-born students petrified. Rowling lets Harry eventually discover that a magical school diary made by Tom Riddle (the young Lord Voldemort) has been possessing her in order to access the Chamber of Secrets and unleash a Basilisk on the school.(ref: HP2, chapter x)
For the referencing, please use WP:CITET. Hope I could help. The article has a good core, and we all look forward to award that green cross if it makes that magical step from B- to GA-class. —Onomatopoeia 09:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Any suggestions on which country's version to use? John Reaves 23:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Dunno, but it's better to either stick to one publisher (which would open up a can of worms), or (IMHO better) just limit the reference precision to chapter references rather rather than to page references. IMHO, it's better to have a 20-something-page scope where you can read XYZ up, than an imprecise page scope or a too broad book scope (nobody will read 700+ pages of book just to find out one trait). —Onomatopoeia 08:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I helped do this on Horcrux and dffrent p[eopel willing to help all had diffrent vrsions. SImply be nice and specific that it is the american hardback or the uk paper bck or whatever and the page number and where approprate (if the text is citing a fact but not a quote) include the quote that estabilshed the fact. Doing this keeps us in line abut not using them for anything but primary sources with no literary criticism. Dalf | Talk 07:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fixing up this article

I've been overhauling this article to get it up to Good Article quality. I haven't got my new version ready yet, but I thought I'd let everyone know what I have in mind.

The GA review on this page pointed out that this article is written in a primarily in-universe style. I'm pretty much totally rewriting it to be out-of-universe. I've never tried this before, so it probably won't be perfect, but it will definitely be a lot closer. The review also mentioned that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information and that a lot of the trivial detail and plot summary in this article should be axed. I agree, and I'm doing a lot of trimming. As much as I love completeness and would like to leave in things such as how many times Ginny grins at Harry in book two, whom Michael Corner dates after Ginny dumps him, etc. (and I'm not being sarcastic; I really would!), Wikipedia isn't the place for that. There are plenty of fan websites out there which can and do store such information. For example, I'm deleting Ginny's birthdate (birth and death dates of fictional characters are considered in-universe style).

At this point, there are hardly any citations on the entire page. I'm currently citing all claims from the books in footnote format... I just think that looks nicer. After checking out JKR's website and doing a Google search, I can't find a source for the claim that JKR posted a "chapter plan" of OOTP stating that she intentionally contrasted Ginny and Cho by having Ginny outdo Cho both at Quidditch and in Dumbledore's Army. Therefore, I'm going to delete this claim, but if anyone can find that source, it would of course be great to have it back in.

As the GA reviewer said, this article needs more information on Ginny's role in fandom/shipping. If anyone reading this is an expert in that area, it would be wonderful if you could write up that section. I have a cursory knowledge of the subject and can write it if necessary, though.

I'm going to be doing this update within the next couple of days. By the way, there's great stuff in this article already and though I am doing a major overhaul, I'm trying to retain some of its current phrasing. Meredith March 19:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

The plan in question is this one: http://www.bitchnmoan.net/images/oopplan.jpg You see that she has Cho and Ginny both in the same subplot column, although this is obviously a very early draft because many things changed between here and the actual novel, including chapter titles and even the name of Harry's DADA group.
As for re-entering the fandom/shipping section, good luck with that. We used to have a section about that here (you'll find it if you go back and look in the archives about 6-7 months or so back), but it got taken down. Partly because it was a lot of "some fans think this, while other fans think that" stuff without much in the way of citations to back anything up, and partly because it seemed to be a magnet for Ginny-haters who were constantly either adding negative perspectives or just outright vandalizing it. If you (or anyone) could somehow write or rewrite that section in a way that doesn't lend itself to future fan editorializing (from Ginny-lovers or Ginny-haters), that would be awesome!--Zequist 04:56, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for finding that chapter plan. (How cool!) Do you think it would be acceptable to just include a link to that image as a reference for any statements about it? It seems to me that if we do that, there won't be any evidence that some fan didn't just draw up the plan on a piece of binder paper. Am I right in thinking that we should have a reference that proves it's real (like a mention on a reliable website or something)?
I see your point about the controversial nature of the fandom/shipping section, which I've now checked out in the archives. It seems to me that if the section comes back, it should stay away from a discussion of whether Ginny is admirable character, whether fans like or dislike her, etc. That was kind of the direction it was taking before, and like you said, it was treading dangerous ground because much of it was subjective and not backed up with citations. I think the section might be better off focusing on concrete fandom phenomena, like the long-standing contention between Harry/Ginny and Harry/Hermione factions and the fact that some H/H shippers reacted with anger and disappointment when H/G became canon. Those kinds of things can be discussed in a factual and unbiased manner. That said, I'm kind of torn on whether any of it is important enough to be in Wikipedia. Would it add the real-world relevance we need here? Or would it be too specialized? I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards including it.... Meredith March 02:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The chapter plan image is available on Rowling's web site, but there's no way to link it directly from there because it's one of the "hidden treasures" that visitors can unlock for themselves. The HP Lexicon keeps a guide to her web site though, so we can use this link here, or one of the pages that it connects to, and I think that will be authoritative enough: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/sources/jkr.com/jkr-com-tips.html#revision
The reviewer above who rated this article said that we did need a section on her place in the fandom, so for better or for worse we'd better include that information. However, I think that it is possible to do that without detailing and cataloging long lists of specific fan opinions, which is where the real minefield lies. If we stick to the cold, hard facts, it might work out alright. I'll have a go at that section over the next day or two and see if I can do anything with it. If I can I'll post whatever I can come up with here, if I can't I'll let you know that it was beyond my power. :-) --Zequist 05:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Sweet! I agree that the Lexicon link would be sufficient. Also, I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with for the fandom section. I think we're on the same page about sticking to hard facts only. I had already experimented a bit with writing the section, so I'll post here what I came up with. (I'll just list the references I found as links in parentheses.) Maybe you can make use of some of this, or we can combine our ideas:
Ginny's character plays a specific role in the phenomenon of Harry Potter fan culture, familiarly known as fandom. Ginny is one of several main Harry Potter characters focused on by "shippers", fans who support the idea of romantic relationships between specific pairs of fictional characters. Some shippers enjoy imagining and writing about their pairings of choice without expecting those pairings ever to become canon, but in fandoms such as Harry Potter in which that canon is still being produced, many shippers maintain hopes that their favorite pairings will indeed materialize. Among shippers in Harry Potter fandom who focus on pairing the character of Harry with a female character, there has long been a major faction who favor Harry's close friend Hermione Granger as a match for him and another major faction preferring Harry with Ginny. (How can we prove this? The best I've come up with is illustrating the popularity of each pairing by citing statistics from FanFiction.Net or someplace like that.)
The opposing preferences of Harry/Ginny and Harry/Hermione shippers have kindled debate and contention between the two communities, with fans engaging in detailed analysis of the Harry Potter novels in order to support their opinions. After the publication of Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, some fans who had hoped Rowling was setting the stage for a romance between Harry and Hermione expressed anger and disappointment over the author's decision to introduce a relationship between Harry and Ginny instead. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/08/03/DDG0RE1DDI1.DTL) Some of these fans have criticized Rowling and claimed they will not support the final installment of the Harry Potter series unless Rowling replaces Ginny with Hermione as Harry's love interest. (http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/ultimate_betrayal/) Meredith March 21:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Okay, here's what I've come up with. Although like with you, I'm having trouble sourcing some of these statements even though I know they are true, because unfortunately so much of it comes out of reading forums and livejournals and other such places that aren't normally considered "authoritative" sources. I took the tack of not getting specifically into the H/Hr-H/G argument, because I know plenty of Harry/Luna shippers and anti-shippers (call them the Harry/nobody crowd) who dislike Ginny just as much. Still, we may decide that needs to be included anyway. I've marked (cite?) at points where I feel like a citation might be in order, but am not sure where to go to get a good one. Some of those might not even need to be cited, but I tried to err on the side of conservatism. Anyway, see what you think.
Ginny in the Harry Potter fandom
Ginny’s lack of character development in the first four books led to a great deal of speculation and debate among the fans about her true personality. Fan fiction authors prior to the release of book 5 portrayed her in many different ways: as a quiet and studious girl who wrote poetry in her spare time, a quidditch-loving tomboy, even a future Death Eater on occasion.(cite?) One of the most enduring fanon traits given to Ginny's character in this era was a habit of stealing socks. A fan fiction story named Carpe Diem introduced this character quirk, and it quickly became popular with fans and other fan fiction writers.(http://www.siye.co.uk/siye/viewstory.php?sid=9247&chapter=1) Another topic of general fan interest was and still is Ginny’s relationship with the memory of Tom Riddle, especially what happened between them that wasn’t shown in ‘’Chamber of Secrets’’ and how it might affect the remainder of the series.(cite?)
Like with most of the characters who did not have romantic pairings already established in canon, fans have paired Ginny with a wide variety of other characters over the years, both male and female. By far the most popular pairings for her have always been with either Harry Potter or Draco Malfoy. On the FictionAlley Park forums, where many of the early debates on romantic pairings were held and shipping in general remains a popular topic, both of those pairings still rank among the most heavily discussed, much more so than any other pairing involving Ginny. As of March, 2007, Harry/Ginny had been the subject of 87 dedicated threads containing over 15,000 posts, and Draco/Ginny the subject of 96 dedicated threads containing over 18,000 posts, with new posts still regularly added to both pairings. (http://forums.fictionalley.org/park/forumdisplay.php?s=bc11680d1d3cda3e77c97f031289fa7a&forumid=36)
The shift in Ginny’s role from a background character through the first four books to a featured character in book five forced many readers to re-evaluate their opinions of her, and the fallout effectively split the fan base, with some welcoming her newfound confidence and increased involvement in the story and others highly critical of it.(cite?) The split widened even further with the paths her character development and relationship with Harry took in book six.(cite?) The reasons given by fans on both sides for liking or disliking her are straightforward, but the root causes of why Ginny has become such a polarizing figure remain a mystery.(cite?) Many forum discussion threads on the Internet,(http://forums.fictionalley.org/park/showthread.php?s=&threadid=117652) and entire seminars at fan conventions,(http://www.thephoenixrises.org/programming/accepted/), (http://lumos2006.org/programming.shtml) have devoted themselves to examining this question. Various literary theories (examining how Ginny has been characterized and developed in the series),(cite?) sociological theories (examining the fans themselves and how their own personalities would affect their reaction to her),(cite?) and even feedback-loop theories (that the ongoing argument has driven moderate fans to choose sides, further fanning the flames)(cite?) have been suggested and debated, but there is still no consensus. Zequist (talk • contribs) 03:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Birthdate

I disagree about Ginny's "birthdate" being needed in the article -- obviously, since I deleted it. :) Like I said earlier on this talk page, the birth and/or death dates of fictional characters don't belong in Wikipedia (perhaps because they were never actually born, nor do these dates have any real-world significance whatsoever). If you don't believe me, look at Wikipedia's Manual of Style for writing about fiction, where it says so explicitly. If we want this article to be a GA, we need to follow those guidelines. Ginny's birthdate is indeed referenced, but that doesn't mean it should stay. It's in-universe trivia. Meredith March 18:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Her age is relevant - for a start, it explains why she is in a different school year to the protagonist; I also seem to remember that one of her reasons for embarassment was that Harry was older than her. In any case, the article is written the way it is, and birthdates are part of that. If you intend to change it, then the birthdate will be mentioned in the character biography (as is the case with Ron Weasley). Michaelsanders 18:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it's clear enough that if you're in the next year down from someone in school, you're about a year younger than that person. Also, if Harry's being a year older is a factor in Ginny's embarrassment around him, it's a small one -- the main point is that he's a famous "rock god", as JKR put it, and she has a crush on him.
That said, I looked at the article again and you're right; the "Role in the series" section neglects to explain exactly why Ginny doesn't start attending Hogwarts until the year after Harry and Ron begin there. I can see how someone who's unfamiliar with HP might think there was some other reason for her late arrival. So how about this: I'm almost finished with a rewrite of the "Role in the series" section, and in it, I'll make sure it's clear that Ginny is a year younger than Harry. I'll leave the birthdate until that new version is posted, but at that point, I would like to delete it. It belongs at the Lexicon and other such places, but it just doesn't belong in Wikipedia, and Wikipedia's guidelines clearly state that. Meredith March 19:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
It's sourced, stated specifically by Rowling, and is allowed to be worked into the text. Probably in the new role in the series section. But it'll do as it is for now. Other than that, the new section looks good - though I assume that the authorial references to her being designed as Harry's 'ideal woman' will be restored under the spoiler warning. Good work. Michaelsanders 20:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to lead and name sections

Since I've made significant changes to the first part of this article, here's an explanation of some what I've done. If there's disagreement, let's discuss it!

The lead and name info sections really needed to be in a more out-of-universe style, so I had to pretty much rewrite them, especially the lead. At the same time, I tried to make them more accessible and informative for those who aren't familiar with HP. The lead (meaning everything before the first section heading) should basically be an introduction to Ginny's character (assuming that we're talking to someone who knows absolutely nothing about HP) and a preview of what the article is going to address. I left Ginny's physical description and personality traits in the lead, and when we get a fandom/shipping section up and running, I'd like to add a line or two about that in the lead, too.

The GA review said that having a spoiler warning in the lead "looks ugly", which I take to mean that it's kind of a minus point against the article. Therefore, I changed the lead so that it no longer needs the spoiler warning, and I moved the warning down to the beginning of the "Role in the Series" section. Obviously, this means that the lead can no longer explicitly say that Ginny ends up as Harry's love interest. I know, I know, nobody's going to like that... but I think it has to be done. Everybody needs to be able to read the lead, even those who don't want to be spoiled. I still made it clear that Ginny takes on an important role in Harry's story as the series progresses.

The lead seemed a bit long, so I added a "Background" section and moved some of the information about the Weasley family there. I also removed some trivial information about the Weasley family, especially since all that stuff can be found on the Weasley family page.

I changed the "Behind the Name" section to "Name Etymology", which I think sounds more encyclopedic. Other than that, this section is more or less as it was before, only a little more out-of-universe and with an explanation of why an analysis of Ginny's name is relevant.

And finally, these first three sections are pretty thoroughly referenced now. Meredith March 19:37, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I entered this talk page so I could ask whoever it was who rewrote the lead section to work on the rest of the article as well. Wonderful job. --AceMyth 18:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] =Comment=====

I think Ginny will eventually go for Neville. She sticks up for him and Neville likes her. Neville doesn't want to catch Harry's eye. He thinks Harry will steal Ginny from him. Is that a nice theory?

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