User talk:GilbertoSilvaFan/Archive 1

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This is a dump of all old conversations. My talk page isn't busy enough to need several archive sections, rather, it is static enough to need out of date conversation archived. This is my museum. Admission is free.

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Hello, GilbertoSilvaFan/Archive 1, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  RJFJR 16:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gilberto Silva

On the Gilberto Silva article, the "soccerbase.com" external link (to here) provides up-to-date stats. As the Infobox says, "Professional club caps and goals counted for the domestic league only," only the 100+6 appearances are to be included, plus his 6 league goals.
Slumgum 21:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Cool, thanks mate. I should have read the infobox notes properly. On a related note, if you know of a site which can provide a usable Gilberto photo, I'd love to hear of it. GilbertoSilvaFan 09:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gilberto Silva Question

- Does the Gilberto Silva article still count as a stub? As far as football bio's go, I think it's pretty complete.

- Can I upload a photo of Gilberto ripped from a video of a recent game? The original video was recorded from a French TV broadcast.

Thanks, Gilberto Silva Fan 10:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Gilberto Silva is definitely not a stub. The TV station will own copyright on the image, and it's unlikely that a fair use claim would be legal.--Commander Keane 10:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Helpme - image follow up

A follow up from my second question earlier; is this image quality too poor for Wikipedia? http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4554/gilbertosilva5zb.png There should be no problems with copyright, since I took the photo at a match. Thank you, GilbertoSilvaFan 14:09, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Any image is better than no image, so we should include that one. Since it's yours and you will be releasing it under a free licence, upload it to the Commons so other Wikipedias can use it too.--Commander Keane 14:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you suggest a Licensing type to use? "Own work, all rights released (Public domain)" seems correct, but I want to upload it so that Wikipedians have the most freedom when using it. Thanks again GilbertoSilvaFan 14:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the licence you have selected give the most freedom possible. Commons:Copyright_tags has a full list of the licences, GNU Licenses are also popular.--Commander Keane 15:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gilberto Silva

I took it whilst in North London.--Andeh 02:32, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Cool, but I mean where in North London? Like, training ground or some public place? Cheers. -GilbertoSilvaFan 11:48, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

No, I spotted him during a modelling photo shoot in a park. The black bit next to him in the photo is me. :)--Andeh 22:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Cool! I'm very jealous. =)

I can believe that. Nice work on the article.--Andeh 07:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gilberto detailed stats

The Arsenal stats match soccerbase's. I don't know if the Brazilian club stats are reliable, but they don't look right to me. Do you think they're complete? The article text says he resumed football in 96, but the stats start from 97, and only total 47 appearances in 5.5 years in Brazil before joining Arsenal, including 0 games in two different seasons at America. Thats looks suspicious to me. The article also says he joined Athletico and got injured in 2000, so that may explain just 3 games played. In total it says 27 (3) for Athletico, which looks like it may be correct, but I can't say for sure. In my opinion the stats don't look trustworthy, although I can't find any other sources which contradict them.  SLUMGUM  yap  stalk  17:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Your points all sound right, I think I'll leave it til I find another source which agrees/disagrees. Thanks very much for your help. --GilbertoSilvaFan 00:09, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] bong

you're right, thanks for the notice. ReverendG 18:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Arsenal images

As seen at Wikipedia_talk:Publicity_photos#This_page_is_dangerous, Jimbo Wales has indicated that such images are not sutiable for Wikipedia ("dangerous"). I expect that in the long term the images, like the one you mention of Gilberto Silva, will be deleted.--Commander Keane 06:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lagao da Prata

Without looking, I knew instantly who'd turned Lagao da Prata from a red link to blue. Keep up the good work.
 sʟυмɢυм • т • c  17:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure if www.lagoadaprata.com is a reliable source - I can't read Portuguese! It's okay to base the article on that website, but it looks like it's just a tourism site, so there might not be very much useful info. You should probably try to read through the lines and work out what are facts and what is advertising. Perhaps there are some online travel guides which can provide you with more unbiased/factual info, or you can try the Portuguese wiki article, although I'm not sure if it provides any more info than lagoadaprata.com.  sʟυмɢυм • т • c  20:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gilberto Silva rating

Hi! What I meant with my comment was that it needs much work to go higher than GA-class, I expressed myself a little bit unclear. I saw it was up on GA nomination, but I am not very good at judging which articles are GA-class and which are not, so we'll have to see if it is good enough already. However, to be rated even higher, that is, A- or FA-class, it needs a lot of work, more text, incorporation of the trivia and court cases in the main text body, and just general fixes. See Denis Law for an example of a FA-class player article. Hope this helps a little. – Elisson • Talk 19:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gilberto Silva

I noticed that there have been many improvements to the article. However, the early life section could use expanding. After this, check that it is factually accurate, verifiable, and npov (see WP:WIAGA), and then you (or I or someone else) could nominate it for good article candidacy. If it succeeds, the class could be upgraded to GA.

However, for now, the next highest class is A-class, and I'm not sure this would qualify. So I recommend trying the above. Hope everything goes well. Green caterpillar 19:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA

No problem :) I hate it when people don't give pointers on how to improve, so I'm glad it is useful! Poulsen 05:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

I'd generally say that if you can't work it into the article then it doesn't belong. Here's a discussion on the subject that basically comes to the same conclusion: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(headings)#.22Trivia.22_heading. Another reason for getting rid of is that it is an easy target area for people to dump "facts" that they heard a friend of friend down the pub mention maybe was true - I'd think an article on a premiership footballer would be a prime target for this sort of "improvement". Yomangani^talk 18:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Club statistics

I only meant the club statistics should be merged, just like you have done it. I can't think of a way to improve what you have already done :D Poulsen 21:07, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silva

Fair point! Ok! Keep it for now. If you later nominate your article for FA (I don't think for GA this is a problem) and you face criticisms you'll see what you can do. My only concern is that, since you've already mentioned all the details of this text in the main text, then this section might be redundant. But, as I told you I donot think this is a major issue, at least now. Is there any article for a footballer FA? A don't know. But if there is, you could get some ideas. Regards!--Yannismarou 07:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh! By the way, the lead needs to be expanded a bit more (just one or two more sentences - not many words) to summarize the article.--Yannismarou 07:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Generally, it looks very nice to me. When I read it in detail (lign by lign), I'll comment also on the prose, although, since I'm not a native English speaker, I connot be the best judge in this domain. I still think you could expand a bit the lead. My conclusion is that you are ready for Good Article Candidacy and, then, we can discuss again about FAC (Feautured Article Candidacy).--Yannismarou 17:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the prose is fine for a GA. This phrase needs citations: "Brazil were beaten 1-0 by France in the quarter final, but most pundits said that Gilberto had a solid tournament." "Most pundits" without any inline citation at the end of the sentence is regarded as weasel word.--Yannismarou 17:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

You could include some things about his early life and some more things about his career. Just make a good summary of the article. You could double the size of the current lead without any problem. Just, be careful and don't go to the other side! Don't make it fool! Peer-reviews are always a nice thing! After all what we do now is an informal peer-review!--Yannismarou 18:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Print References

I don't know how many you should put in, if you look at a lot of the other featured articles & candidates for youngish people then a lot of them actually have very few print references. In general though I'd suggest that most sport books are probably better researched than the average newspaper/website sports article which often seem to have a lot of speculation. For someone who plays for Arsenal I'd suggest that there should be quite a lot of books around that you could look at. Arsene Wenger must have a biography or 2, Ashley Cole has one out at the moment, probably some more of the current or recent Arsenal players will have them too. There must also be yearbooks about recent Arsenal seasons. Any of these could be good sources for Gilberto Silva info. Try your local library! JMiall 23:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply about Gilberto stat

Hi, it's nice to meet fellow football fans.

About Gilberto's caps, I also use the same source as you from sambafoot.com, however, that list includes non official friendly matches. In that list, there are 4 non official friendly matches, which are: vs Selection of Catalonia 2002, vs Selection of Catalonia 2004, vs Sevilla FC 2005, vs Luzern Selection 2006. That's why I'm reducing his caps from 49(4) by 4. His total would be 45(4) from this source

To differ the official and non official matches, I use this page as reference, http://paginas.terra.com.br/esporte/rsssfbrasil/sel/brazila.htm.

Other problems with sambafoot.com is that they also include the matches for the Olympic football team. According to FIFA this does not account into national team caps. Fortunately, for Gilberto this wasn't a problem.

However, another source that i use is http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/team/squad.html?team=BRA. As this one is managed by FIFA, I assume this is the most reliable source. This stats only includes caps and goals at the end of World Cup 2006. You just need to add them with the recent 4 matches under Dunga. But this means he has only 44(3) caps.

That's when I use other source http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/braz-recintlp.html. This page has stats up to Norway match on August 2006. THe listing shows Gilberto has 41(3) caps and we need to add 3 recent matches which resulted to 44(3) caps.

I still doesn't know what caused the difference. All the matches (except those 4) in sambafoot listings were official matches. But two other sources shows that he only has 44(3) caps that's why I'm using that info. The only explanation that I'm thinking is that sambafoot confuses Gilberto (LB from Hertha) and Gilberto Silva for one occasion.

Well that's all i know. Thanks for asking.

That's a pretty amazing reply. Good work! I think you're right about them confusing Hertha's Gilberto with Gilberto Silva. Soccerbase have done it so I wouldn't put it past Sambafoot. It's interesting to know about the non-official friendly games, too. We'll settle for 44 - that seems the most reliable stat. Thanks for all your help there! -GilbertoSilvaFan 08:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

One other thing, according to http://paginas.terra.com.br/esporte/rsssfbrasil/sel/brazilaunof.htm, match against Kuwait wasn't official match, however, it is listed in fifa.com fixtures before the match took place. However it totally disappeared from fifa.com website after the match. Some resources also shows that it wasn't a match against Kuwait National Team, instead its Kuwait Selection Team or similar. I haven't yet know which one is correct so just let the Kuwait match still counted as official match at the moment.

Hi again. Good spot on the Kuwait match. Regarding 'one appearance over' problem; I think the confusion lies in Gilberto's alleged debut appearance against Chile. Soccerbase's http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=354458 version of the game lists completely different substitutions to the Sambafoot http://www.sambafoot.com/en/selecao/2001_World_Cup_Qualifications/46_Brazil_Chile.html version. I don't know which version to trust, since both sources have proven to be unreliable in the past. What do you reckon?

[edit] Time between PR and FAC

I would recommend a minimum of one month between a PR closing and the FAC opening. I don't like rushing such things - PRs usually involve revamping of articles a lot and a month is fair time for it to "settle" a little. Qwghlm 19:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Cool, thanks for your advice. I'll leave it a while before nominating it as a FAC.

My personal opinion on this is simply to do whatever you feeel comfortable with. For a high traffic article or a peer review resulting in major changes a settling period is a good idea, but the Gilberto article seems pretty stable. Mind you, as your user page states your intention to leave Wikipedia once Gilberto Silva is featured, I recommend you leave it as long as possible so that you continue doing good work ;-) Oldelpaso 12:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply mate. I think I'll wait about another two weeks then nominate it. There seems to be quite a few people chipping in with little tweaks on the article at the moment anyway; that'll help its chances in FAC. Oh - and good work on the Manchester article; especially the sentence "The official mascots of the club are the space aliens "Moonchester" and "Moonbeam".". I don't know why it makes me giggle. Thanks again, all the best! -GilbertoSilvaFan 12:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations

I saw Gilberto finally became FA. Congratulations! You deserved that! I also see you prepare the article for FAC. That's good! Just don't hurry. Give a few more days (I don't think a whole month is necessarily needed) to the reviewers (I saw you went for a peer-review) and then go for it! I'll go once again through the article and try to pick any deficiencies I may have missed. In any case, when you go for FAC, be sure that I'll be closely (and discretely!) watching your efforts and I'll help you if it's needed. For now just an advice: in order to prepare yourself for the usually tough FAC proceedure, take a look in WP:FAC to see what are the criticisms FACs face and what are the demands of the evaluators. In this way, you'll get used to FAC's logic and you'll track further deficiencies of your article. You'll also prepare yourself for possible criticisms and negative (or even absurd) comments you might face. Cheers!--Yannismarou 20:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Yannismarou, I really appreciate your advice. It's great to know there's someone looking out for me! From now on you are my Wikipedian big brother ;-)

I've been looking around the FAC nominations (especially at the recent football articles), and I've been taking note of what kind of thing they're being called out on. I'm trying to make it so that the FAC reviewers will have nothing to criticise - but if they do, I'll happily take on board their suggestions. At the moment, I think the article passes all of the FAC criteria; but I cannot be sure, since I am now so familiar with the article, I might be missing poor sections. If you could browse over the article again, that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again for all your comments, I'm sure I'll be messaging you soon! All the best, GilbertoSilvaFan 23:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slumgum's review

Hi, I looked closely at the Gilberto article, and tried to find faults (I knew you'd appreciate it). I just made a few minor changes to things I noticed needed tweaking.

It's very good of you to take the time to read through it! Thanks.

I think it's worthy of being a featured article already, but I did manage to think of a few things that you could add to the article:

• Early career: ...the improved situation back at home - did his mother get better?

I'm not sure what "improved situation back home" means. I must have made it up. When writing it, I must have thought 'oh well if he started playing football, the condition at home must have improved'. I can get very speculative at times. I'll remove the sentence. Good spot.

This might be something to ask him, providing you do so subtly. I hope she did recover but it's not nice to mention this sort of thing if she didn't.

• The way Who Moved My Cheese? affected his philosophy on how he plays football. I don't know if he still follows the philosophy, but it shows he is a thinker as much as a worker.

This is a very interesting point. I really wanted to include something about his like of 'who moved my cheese', but I really couldn't think of a place to put it. The question I still have though, is: does the message from the book really affect the way he plays football? The message I got from the book was "get up and make things happen - don't be afraid of change to make life better". Which part of his life or career would you say this philosophy applies to? Also, how would you recommend including it without making it POV/speculative? It's a very interesting point, I think I just need a bit of help with how to include it in the article properly. Good idea.

Hmm. It's difficult to say without reading the book or comparing before-book with after-book displays. I think you're right when you say that any reference to his play regarding the book might be speculative. I think only the ESPN article that mentions it can be used.

• Gilberto Silva on his shirt for Brazil but just Gilberto at Arsenal, due to the other Gilberto. I don't this is really important, but if you want to add it you could.

I agree, this is quite a 'complex' issue - especially since some players are/aren't allowed to have their nicknames on their shirts. I might add a new section called 'Shirt naming' and have a little time line with the names which Gilberto has had on his shirt over the years. (Do you think that's a good idea - or should I include the information in the biography? I'm not sure how biographical it is.) I think during the 2002 world cup it was 'Silva', which carried over to when he first joined Arsenal. After that, he asked for it to be changed to 'Gilberto', then for the 2006 world cup it was 'G. Silva'. I'll need to do a bit of work to check those facts first. One question - would you say that citations would be needed for a section like that? If so, what kind of citations would be sufficient? Links to photo galleries displaying the lettering on his shirt? Written references to his shirt? I'm not even sure if it would need any of that though, so let me know.

Yeah, I'm not sure either. This sort of thing isn't difficult to know, but it is hard to reference.

• Boot sponsorship deals. (Although you'd need citations to avoid it appearing like a product endorsement). I would consider this least important.

Again, a good idea. It will take a lot of time to come up with this information, but I'll give it a go. (I'm interviewing Gilberto on Monday so I might even ask him then - but shhh, don't tell anyone.) Would you suggest a new section for this, or putting the info in an existing section?

The use of interviews is frowned upon at Wikipedia, unless they're published. See WP:NOR. I know that it's not always good to meet one's heroes, so I hope you find him to be as good a lad as his biography makes him seem.

Otherwise I was very impressed. I like the depth in which you go into throughout his career. I've been impressed by your openness and attitude towards getting the article to its excellent state. Well done.  sʟυмɢυм • т • c  13:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words - and more so for your help! Sorry if I ask a few too many questions in reply, it's a condition I have. I think the medical term is 'rambling'. All the best. -GilbertoSilvaFan 14:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

 :o) I think my suggestions generally bring more questions than answers anyway. I was hoping you'd have more answers than me!

I was saddened to read on your user page that you intend to leave Wikipedia after the article reaches FA status. This would be a shame as you're a good editor.

All the best to you and Gilberto. I hope you've got lots of good things prepeared for you to talk about, and I hope you don't get nervous meeting him!  sʟυмɢυм • т • c  21:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright problems with Image:Gilberto Silva Against Villa.jpg

— Indon (reply) — 02:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Look again carefully in this page [1]. It is where you can see license for an image in Flickr. The license of the image is "© All rights reserved". There is no information that the image is released under creative commons. — Indon (reply) — 20:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

That's an interesting point with the 'all rights reserved' notice. This is another image in which I communicated with the photographer of the image, and he released the image under CC. How do you suggest I get the image onto wikipedia without violating that copyright notice? Does he need to manually change that copyright notice? Even if he has so explicitly released the image? Please let me know. I take copyright very seriously, so the last thing I want to do is get Wikipedia into trouble. I'm just a bit of a newbie, so I need some prodding into the right direction. Thanks for your help! GilbertoSilvaFan 23:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Gilberto_Silva_Streetleague.jpg

In the image summary:

Gilberto Silva in a Streetleague Promotional Photograph.
Photographer (author): Tom Miles
Photographer Website: http://www.tmphoto.co.uk
Source URL: http://www.streetleague.co.uk
Permission: OTRS ticket number 2006071810011931

Please click source URL. That's why I said it points to a blank empty page. I don't need the photographer website, but I need the source of the image, where you took it, to verify its license. — Indon (reply) — 20:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah - ok, I can see how one might perceive a problem with this image. I actually had a long correspondence with the creator of the image (Tom Miles) who released the image under the CC license. I sent the email conversation I had with the photographer to some email creative commons email address, and they gave me a OTRS ticket number of 2006071810011931 - I assumed that would be enough. How would you suggest I prove to the world that the image has been released by the author? Does he need to upload the image himself? Or do I need him to sign a release letter? I'm not sure of the best way. One thing - both of those links which you quote both show up fine to me, though I'm not sure either link will help you verify the image's copyright.