User:Gilgamesh/Talk Archive 6

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[edit] Talk Archives

[edit] Hebrew Transliteration

I noticed your transliterations of Hebrew, both Tiberian and Modern Israeli, to Latin script. Why not use IPA for the task? --Jill St. Crux 22:13, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Linguistic transliterations are phonemic, not phonetic. However, phonetic IPA supplements might not be all that bad an idea. - Gilgamesh 03:21, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Also, I used Standard Hebrew, which has a slightly different definition from Israeli Hebrew. Standard Hebrew is one of the official languages of the State of Israel, and it's based on the Sephardi Hebrew derived standard compiled by Eliezer ben Yehuda. However, it is linguistically conservative in some ways that Israeli Hebrew (the actual vernacular) is much looser about. For example, Standard Hebrew and Israeli Hebrew have different pronunciation. Standard Hebrew is based on true Sephardi Hebrew, as traditionally spoken in the Mediterranean basin by Sephardi Jews for centuries (distinct from Mizrahi Hebrew spoken by Mizrahi Jews also spread throughout the Arab parts of the region). But Israeli Hebrew is Sephardi Hebrew further constrained to Ashkenazi Hebrew phonology, as the cultural elite in the region for decades have been Ashkenazi Jews from Northern Europe. Also, the results of millions of people learning a dead language as a form of daily communication means inevitably that many features of the languages were simplified from their ancient form, including phonology and grammar. So, I could give Standard Hebrew pronunciation guides, though you must understand that Israelis don't speak that way. There would have to be a separate pronunciation guide for Israeli Hebrew to mark the differences. Also, there are some things about Israeli Hebrew I still don't completely understand—such as the exact semantics of the more recent phonetic shift where ה hê is pronounced as a glottal stop by the younger generation. - Gilgamesh 08:51, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining my own socio-lingual heritage to me.

Flattening of the language by present-day Israeli speakers aside, by standard Hebrew, I meant modern Israeli. I don't consider the lack of distinction between het and khaf, nor ayin and alef -- and lately even he -- to be a proper standard; but I do recognise the guttural resh as a 'proper' standard of the Israeli dialect. Just my native speaker POV, I suppose.

What standard do you use when transliterating Hebrew? What is your target audience? Without a guide, I can't make head or tail of it. One of the advantages of IPA is its applicability to many different languages. One system to learn.

Also, any standard imposed on the language by the Academy is a farce.

On a side note, unless your definition differs greatly than mine, Ashkenazi Jews do not come from Northern Europe. --Jill St. Crux 11:48, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant no disrespect nor rudeness. I just don't make ethnic or religion assumptions about the people I talk to. And when I say "Northern Europe", I mean a lot of Central Europe too, as far south as Austria and Romania and such; that's to differentiate from Spain, Italy, Greece, and other regions where local Jewish populations were typically not Ashkenazi. Anyway, the standard I speak of has a few minor differences from the vernacular...

ח Het is pronounced as a pharyngeal rather than as a velar, and is transcribed as ḥ.
ע Ayin is pronounced as a pharyngeal rather than as a glottal or silent, and is transcribed in all positions as ʿ.
ק Qof is still pronounced /k/ (no change), but is transliterated q and never k in the academic standards.
ר Resh is pronounced alveolar rather than uvular.
ְ Sheva is written where it would be fully vocalized in the ancient form, e.g. šəva instead of šva.
ֵי Zere male is regarded as a pure vowel e instead of a diphthong ei, e.g. Elat instead of Eilat.
Doubled consonants are fully transliterated, even if they are not spoken, e.g. Tammuz instead of Tamuz. This also includes yy, e.g. Toviyya instead of Tovia.

However, unlike true Sephardi Hebrew but like in modern Israeli:

ָ Qamaz gadol is pronounced as a pure /a/ like patah, rather than the rounded vowel /ɔ/ traditionally used by Sephardim and Ashkenazim alike.

It more or less reflects Ben Yehuda's preference for Sephardi Hebrew, as spoken by Sephardi Jews. It is believed that much of this was adhered to in the early aliyot, but that speech was gradually constrained to phonetic pronunciations Ashkenazim elite were more comfortable with, resulting in the phonetically simplified Israeli Hebrew of today. But I'm much less familiar with the quirks of Israeli Hebrew—they don't seem to be as well documented in the literature I've studied, and my Israeli friends can rarely give me a straight answer (considering most people in the world rarely think about the linguistic properties of their own language in regard to others). ^_^; I've seen these more academic transliterations used on maps, particularly with maps (such as National Geographic) that try to be as appropriately multi-lingual with their place names as possible, putting standard linguistic names in parentheses. - Gilgamesh 12:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am still puzzled when faced with decyphering the notation you use for niqqud. What standard is that? Where can I read and learn it?

Also, how important is Tiberian Hebrew in modern linguistic research? --Jill St. Crux 13:05, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's a common Semitic transliteration standard, easily adapted and used for Hebrew, Phoenician, Akkadian, Aramaic, Arabic, etc.; I've encountered it in many places, from dictionaries to college textbooks. In this case, a macron indicates audibly longer vowels, and a circumflex indicates the presence of a quiesced consonant. (In this sense, āh could just as easily be spelled â, but āh is much more traditional, as you see everywhere.) This stuff is documented on Wikipedia; see Hebrew alphabet, niqqud, etc. See also List of Proto-Semitic roots to see how this transliteration system is used to compare the Semitic languages with each other.

As for Tiberian Hebrew, it is very important as it was the form of the language standardized with the Masoretic Text at Tiberias in the 12th century. It is the oldest standard for Hebrew that clearly defines all the vowels. That is to say, the nəquddôṯ themselves were the very basis of Tiberian Hebrew as we understand it academically. - Gilgamesh 13:24, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I'm quite familiar with the development of the modern system of niqqud from the Tiberian system and its relation to the Masoretic Text.

I asked this, because I mistakenly thought you transliterated the Tiberian Hebrew pronounciation of non-Biblical Hebrew names, which made me wonder about the importance of Tiberian Hebrew where it never applied. Another glance proved me wrong. --Jill St. Crux 14:39, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Pedantic sense, I guess. ^^; I tend to think in terms of Tiberian Hebrew, as I study chiefly in Biblical Hebrew. ^_^ - Gilgamesh 02:29, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tessaiga

Hi. I have posted a request to revisit this topic at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related_articles). Thanks. Your input will be appreciated. LG-犬夜叉 09:40, Feb 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tenochtitlan

Hi. See Talk:Tenochtitlan, and comment on the reasons if you think the page should be retitled. Thanks, -- Infrogmation 16:51, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] VFD on Israel Revealed (tourism)

FYI - I updated the Daniel Rona page. And, before posting (tourism) for delete, I changed the Israel Revealed page to redirect to Daniel Roma in case people searched for it. Have a good day, Trödel|talk 22:39, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Scanian language

Hello. You are the originator of this article. The article is under NPOV dispute. The main point of the argument seems to be that Scanian is a dialect and not a language. Since you are the original contributor, I kindly ask you to provide the sources you used. Regards, --Fred-Chess 07:38, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hawaiian

Hi. You seem to be knowing Hawaiian. Is it possible to add a sentence in the for India (you'd have to make a new page there I guess)? I looked on the net for a translation but didn't find any. If you could write a line or two, please link it on the India page here. Thanks, =Nichalp (Talk)= 19:11, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

I only know very marginal Hawaiian. I can't help you. - Gilgamesh 19:12, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Ok no probs. =Nichalp (Talk)= 19:25, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tanzania a portmanteau?

You simply added the article to the category, without any supporting/explanatory text to the article itself. Could you please elaborate? Dewet 09:02, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sure. Tanzania was named as a combination of abbreviations of Tanganyika and Zanzibar. Tan+Zan+ia. Look at Category:Portmanteaus and see many other examples. :3 - Gilgamesh 16:15, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ah, thank you! I've tried adding it into the history section, but I can't seem to make the sentence work... Dewet 03:51, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] lots of edits, not an admin

Hi - I made a list of users who've been around long enough to have made lots of edits but aren't admins. If you're at all interested in becoming an admin, can you please add an '*' immediately before your name in this list? I've suggested folks nominating someone might want to puruse this list, although there is certainly no guarantee anyone will ever look at it. Thanks. -- Rick Block (talk) 00:29, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ʻ looks like a rectangle under IE 6 / Win XP

Hi, Gilgamesh: just to let you know, on my PC, ʻ looks like a rectangle, not an okina. ‘ may not be strictly correct, but may be closer to the truth on many people's computers... just fyi. -- hike395 22:05, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm aware it may not always display properly. But it's better to use correct Unicode than to cater to a broken browser. Going by standards is the greatest NPOV. - Gilgamesh 22:12, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, what are you doing. You cannot use Unicodes like ʻ. They are not recognized by most browsers (not broken browsers). You will essentially destroy all of the Hawaii articles for the majority of users. Why on earth would it be better to use "proper" Unicode? This is Wikipedia and the greatest POV is not going off on your own and making a decision that essentially screws up all of our work in getting the 'okina used in Hawai`i articles. If all people see is a square (and that is all I see), you can bet we will not win any arguments about using the 'okina anywhere. In essence, all of them will need to be removed. I would certainly vote for no 'okinas if the only choice were a square where a diacritical should be. Give some thought to this, you are just setting us up for a huge battle that none of us want for a pretty obscure reason. - Marshman 01:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Marshman, what you are doing looks a lot like vandalism. My guess is that your assertion that your browser isn't broken is correct, but you apparently don't have a font with the latest unicode characterset installed, or it's not the default. This is in part why the {{Unicode|}} template exists. On my screen, ʻ is a box, but ʝ ({{Unicode|ʝ}}) is ʝokina. There is a good reason to use okina instead of lsquo: the browser regards lsquo as punctuation and at wordwrap point will split a word up in the middle, essentially making it appear that a Hawaiian word is ending with okina. That's hardly obscure. Tomer ^TALK 03:04, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ABBA

Just so you know, I wasn't the person who removed it the first time. I'll start a discussion before changing it again. Sahriar 01:40, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Alright, thank you. You realize why they are considered a gay icon, right? They are extremely popular in gay dance (disco itself evolved from a fusion of gay dance and rhythm and blues). Dancing Queen is considered one of the gay anthems. - Gilgamesh 03:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Coastal cities category

Hi Gilgamesh, I placed a response to your comments over on Category talk:Coastal cities relating to the use of the term "coastal". I also proposed possibly changing this and the "Coastal towns" category to Port cities/Port towns which might more accurately describe the communities being listed in both categories, and also permit river ports to be added. Cheers,Plasma east 17:15, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] BoM Arabic

Hi, I see you've added 'BoM Arabic' versions of names to several articles, e.g. King Noah. The phrase 'BoM Arabic' links to Linguistics and the Book of Mormon, but is not explained there. What is BoM Arabic and who uses it? --Macrakis 29 June 2005 19:49 (UTC)

That was so long ago... It used to be its own article, and then it was merged with that article. Anyway, BoM Arabic is primarily of interest to LDS linguistics. It's the language of the printed Arabic edition of the BoM. - Gilgamesh 29 June 2005 20:23 (UTC)

If it is just the version of a name used in Arabic translations of the Book of Mormon, it doesn't seem worth including in an encyclopedia entry, any more than the foreign names of anything else -- except of course in cases where they are useful and relevant, e.g. the Romanian, German, and Hungarian versions of place-names in Transylvania. But your mention of "LDS linguistics" makes me think it is something else, perhaps something like "Reformed Egyptian" or other esoteric BoM-ism? --Macrakis 03:26, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh, it seems like forever ago. Just do whatever. - Gilgamesh 04:31, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

But I don't know what BoM Arabic is! I'm not going to make it up! --Macrakis 13:48, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh. Well, LDS belief regards pre-Islamic Arabic as one of the languages originally constituting the Book of Mormon, reflected in the English version only in bits and pieces, such as in the name Abinadi. So the official publication of the Book of Mormon in Arabic is of interest to LDS studies, especially since a Hebrew version of the BoM is harder to come by. (It is published, but scarcely distributed. The Church tries to maintain good relations with Jewry, and a mass-published Hebrew BoM would be seen as a proselytizing tool.) But if people seriously question the relevance or usefulness of BoM Arabic linguistics in Wikipedia, I'm probably not going to defend it. As I said, it was so long ago. - Gilgamesh 14:04, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] SA flag

Do you maybe still have the source to Image:Wikipedia_flag_south_africa_large.png? I'm trying to consolidate all the different variants of the flag on Wikipedia into one, but your colours seem just slightly off — I'd like to correct them (if you don't mind) and then have all the other flags deleted and redirected to this one. dewet|™ 30 June 2005 07:04 (UTC)

No, I don't mind, as long as the license remains the same. The original version should be the first version I uploaded. It should be in the file history, shouldn't it? - Gilgamesh 1 July 2005 02:59 (UTC)

[edit] Could use some more linguists' input

Can you check out what's going on at Extinct language, and look at the NPOV argument on its talkpage, and perhaps also weigh in on the proposal to move the page (on Talk:Extinct language) to Dead language instead? Thanks. Tomer ^TALK July 6, 2005 23:46 (UTC)

[edit] Name Changes?

Do you know if it is possible to have a username changed?--Josiah 03:00, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

No clue. - Gilgamesh 03:02, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Average

Hi Gilgamesh. I was interested to see that you had added average to the category 'Arabic words'. My OED says only 'origin uncertain', so can you please tell me which Arabic word average comes from? Thanks. --Heron 22:14, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes. Read the etymology box here. ^^ - Gilgamesh 07:12, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Excellent. Thanks! --Heron 11:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Dorian colonies

What is your reasoning for adding Sparta and Olympia to this category? Colony has a fairly specific meaning in Greek history, and settlements in the Peloponnese do not usually qualify (too old, for one thing). Septentrionalis 20:02, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, if they don't fit the criteria of colonies, I suppose you could remove them from the category. To be honest, I don't understand everything about Greek colonies, but I found it frustrating trying to study them on Wikipedia, so I decided to make a new set of categories for them. The job was a tad rough, but I wanted to at least raise attention to the subject. - Gilgamesh 20:28, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Greek colonization was a specific process; a city-state (or several of them) sponsored a new settlement in barbarian lands, which thereby became a city-state of its own, with certain expected duties to the metropolis. Thus nothing is a colony founded before about 750 BC, or within the Greek lands (the center and south of modern Greece.) Septentrionalis 01:55, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, that would include Magna Graecia at the very least. It would also include Corfu, Cyrene, Benghazi, Pontus, and maybe Lesbos, Smyrna, Dorian Hexapolis, the twelve cities of Ionia, the Alexandrian settlements, etc... I probably bit off more than I could chew. But at least it's all in one place. I'd appreciate some help. - Gilgamesh 09:11, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ether & Mulekites

Hi Gilgamesh,

I tried to check the history of the Coriantumr stub for authorship of a particular comment. I think it came back to your original creation. Since I can I will notify you of my questioning. Rather than duplicate that discussion. I will refer you to the talk page. talk:Coriantumr

I tried to verify the detail on it, but all I came up with an absence of support. Not that I'm disputing truthfulness of it. As a schollar and a spiritual being-I'm sure you'll understand.

Cheers once again, 11 August Bielenberg|Talk

[edit] Mass Murderers

I don't think that Mary Walcott, Ann Putnam, Betty Paris, et al were as conscious as all that of what they supposedly did. There isn't that cunningness that one sees today in the children, though it is true that two generations before them, the brats of Cambridge probably did all get together to depose the first schoolmaster of Harvard, just so they could get out of going to school though. I don't think there is the same sort of awareness as an Adolf Hitler or a Jim Jones, with a need to get even behind it. These kids haven't lived that long to understand what that "need" could be; so I just don't think that the term "mass murderer" applies to them, though pssibly something else may apply.

Out here in California they just recently caught a bunch of teenage kids who got together and almost sent a man to prison for life, saying that he had raped and molested all of them.

When the sheriff found out, though, he termed it as a conspiracy, and they're doing their time in juvenile hall until they're old enough to serve out the rest of their sentences in adult prisons.

An accessory to murder would be all these could be convicted of here in these Salem Witch Trials, but I still think that the words fraud and conspiracy are more appropriate; because if you don't use the proper terminology, then their peers will never get the message and the whole will end up happening all over again.

As it stands, though, only one of the girls seems to have come forth and confessed; and she was the only one who never got married and had any kids.

Certainly, this is a testimony to her own guilt feelings about what she did, and to the complete innocense of the other girls.

As the maxim goes: if you are innocent in your mind at the instant of the criminal action, then you cannot be culpable to punishment by the law.

I think your categorization "mass murderers" should be altered to reflect this understanding.

WB2 08:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Great Rift Valley

Hi. You've put Gulu in the Great Rift Valley category. According to a diagram in the article Great Rift Valley, however, the 'rift zone' misses northern Uganda altogether. Should Gulu really be in this category? TreveX^talk 11:29, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you don't think so, then maybe it should be removed from the category. - Gilgamesh 21:04, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

hey, im sorry i messed up the original pic on samurai jack, but the fan service line is rediclulous.

thanks.

[edit] Aniline

I noticed that you have placed this article in Category:Arabic words, which surprises me slightly. I'm not an Arabic speaker, could you enlighten me (as other Wikipedia users) as to logic behind this? Cheers! Physchim62 23:59, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Read the etymology information here, then here. The word passed through Arabic as part of a chain of loanings before finally reaching English. - Gilgamesh 04:43, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. When I checked in the Shorter Oxford, the etymology jumped straight from French to Sanskrit! Could you add the etymology to the article, or post me the Arabic and the preferred transliteration here: it would be a shame not to have it, and worse for me to get it wrong in trying to add it myself without help! Physchim62 23:43, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gilgamesh from Final Fantasy V

Hey there. Good to see someone else with an FFV derivative handle. I was surprised to see Gilgamesh as creator of Kenji Ito's wiki entry. You obviously have great taste in music, names, and characters. --Kilgamesh 09:54, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm actually not very fond of Kenji Ito. Boring music. I edited the article for completeness. - Gilgamesh 14:06, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Romanization of Hebrew

I would like to see the end of the terms "Standard Hebrew" and "Tiberian Hebrew" as applied to particular forms of transliteration in Wikipedia. Those might be varieties of Hebrew pronunciation and vocalization respectively, but they are not transliteration rules.

I have made a start by describing issues and options for transliteration in article romanization of Hebrew. If "Tiberian Hebrew" is according to the Society for Biblical Literature (SBL) transliteration of the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible, then let's call it SBL and link to an explanation of the SBL rules. If "Standard Hebrew" is according to the Academy of the Hebrew Language as applied to General Israeli Hebrew pronunciation, then let's make a description of how that works.

Currently it appears that our standard practice is to resort to one prolific user as an authority on transliteration. But it's not fair to other contributors to impose undocumented "rules" on them.

Please let me know your comments and whether you're interested in assisting this effort. So far I haven't asked anyone else. --Hoziron 12:40, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Sure. If it makes more sense to relabel them as orthographies by standard name, then do it. But the rules are not undocumented—they're just very academic. In particular, the transliterations for "Tiberian Hebrew" must remain as detailed as they are. - Gilgamesh 03:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of Greek toponyms

Χαίρε! Congratulations on your extensive list. As a native Greek speaker, however, I'd like to help your effort by pointing out a major error in your IPA transliteration: palatalising consonants that are not palatalised in standard Greek. /l/ and /n/ are never palatalised before the phonemes /e/ or /i/, and are only palatalised in some cases where they precede the letter iota when it serves as a /j/ (rather than an /i/) followed by a vowel. I'd be happy to assist you in correcting the article.--Theathenae 17:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Please do. ^_^ - Gilgamesh 02:26, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

It's a lot of work, mate. How did you get it so wrong anyway?--Theathenae 07:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Misunderstanding of Dimotikí phonology. Don't worry, I'll take care of it now. :3 - Gilgamesh 11:30, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Done. Though these days I wonder if we ever needed IPA in that article. People who want to know the pronunciation of the modern forms could read up on the phonology of modern Greek. And it would be messy to added ancient IPA pronunciations because different Greek place names had different ancient Greek pronunciations depending on time period and predominating regional dialect. What do you think should be done? - Gilgamesh 12:28, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

You're right; providing IPA transliterations for ancient pronunciations is controversial, not only for the reasons you outlined above, but also because no one knows for sure precisely how ancient Greek sounded. That said, I think it would be a shame to remove the modern IPA transliterations after all the hard work you've put into them. Thanks for the corrections, I was rather dreading going through the entire list. There are a few more minor errors I have picked up which I will correct myself; the task seems much less overwhelming after your most recent edits. :)--Theathenae 12:48, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

By the way, don't forget that /c/, /ɟ/, /ɲ/, /ç/, /ʝ/, /j/, /ʎ/ are palatal consonants, so /ʲ/ is implied. They are palatal equivilents of the velar consonants /k/, /ɡ/, /ŋ/, /x/, /ɣ/, /ɰ/, /ʟ/, and of the alveolar consonants /t/, /d/, /n/, /s/, /z/, /ɹ/, /l/. - Gilgamesh 17:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, but it would appear that there is some confusion as to the exact sound the voiced palatal plosive represents. In the relevant article it is postulated that "true" palatal plosives in fact occur only rarely, and the corresponding IPA symbols are instead commonly used to denote postalveolar affricates. This articulation does in fact occur in some Greek dialects, such as Cretan, Maniot and Cypriot, but is by no means considered standard pronunciation. If, however, [c] is understood as being the k in English kid and [ɟ] is the g in English get, then all is good.--Theathenae 18:06, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Here's a sample from Győr: listen (help·info) - Gilgamesh 18:50, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Sounds close enough. What do you think, o ɟilgameʃ?--Theathenae 19:56, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew Alphabet

Hi Gilgamesh, I was looking at the different articles on the different Hebrew letters, and realized that it would be really great if they followed the same format. I jotted down my idea and tried it out with Aleph and Bet here. Check it out and tell me if you think I should start working on the rest of the alphabet. Your comments will be appreciated! Sputnikcccp 02:42, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

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