Talk:Gibraltar

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[edit] Would a bridge connecting Gibraltar to Morroco be used?

A few years ago, the Discovery Channel aired a show called Engineering the Impossible. One of the items mentioned was a bridge connecting Gibraltar to Morroco. What the show never answered was "Would anyone use it?"

Now I ask you, would such a bridge, mentioned in at least one science fiction book, be something worthwhile? Or would it be the destination rather than a route? Will (Talk - contribs) 04:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Firstly it would be madness to have a crossing terminated in Gibraltar itself, because there is not the scope for the infrasructure needed to go with one, our roads are not wide enough, there is no rail connection or room for one, and everthing would have to transit the frontier with Spain. Secondly, the current proposal is for a tunnel to cross the strait of Gibraltar terminating in Spain. Thats more sensible than a bridge, but given the economic problems of the Channel Tunnel which was easier to construct and made more sense, I rather doubt it will be built.

Delivering cargo to a port in Spain for Europe when it can go more cheaply by sea does not make sense, and a large amound of money is spent keeping people out rather than facilitating their entr

There are wikipedia articles on both and some discussion on merging them. I'm told I have the wrong POV on the tunnel being built - we shall see - or not as the case may be :)

• Gibraltar Bridge
• Gibraltar Tunnel

But the quick answer to your question is ... NO

--Gibnews 09:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Such a tunnel or bridge would naturally be used considering the millions of French, Spanish and Belgian Moroccans who take the ferry at Algeciras each summer to visit their country of origin. The number of immigrant travellers would probably increase with a fixed land link and many of the millions of tourists which go to Spain and even southern Portugal each year from Northern Europe would no doubt take the opportunity to drive down to Morocco as well. Spain and Morocco could develop a joint strategy in the tourism sector in the Costa del Sol, Costa de la Luz, Tangier and Tetouan regions and it would also make life easier for Ceutan and Melillan Spaniards who are cut off from mainland Spain, having to take the ferry (albeit, at much lower prices than other travellers). It would have long term benefits for both Morocco and Spain, in terms of commerce and Tourism. Gibraltar would also benefit no doubt, being situated near a main transcontinental axis. It would be a pity, nevertheless, if the bridge was constructed at Punta Paloma, one of the most beautiful coastlines in Spain. There are, nevertheless, other alternatives, Gibraltar never having even bee considered as a possible terminal.

I doubt very much that this enterprise would be profitable and a decision to embark on such an adventure would have to be calculated in terms of its long term positive externalities.

The main problem is technical. Although Morocco and Spain are much closer than France and England the Straights are much deeper than the English Channel. --Burgas00 12:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I think for once we are singing from the same hymn sheet, UK-France was mostly into soft clay and the strait is much deeper. The holiday traffic is very seasonal and it would not cope with the inrush. They started work on the channel tunnel at the time of Napoleon and it took a long time to realise, as will profit for its shareholders. --Gibnews 14:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gibraltar Stock Exchange

There were rumors a few years ago about a possible stock exchange in Gibraltar, and there is a page in Wikipedia about it (GibEX). Did it materialize in the end? W2ch00 15:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Theres been speculation about it for a number of years, however the building has gone up next to the Natwest Bank and its going to open soon. --Gibnews 21:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Afghanistan ?

Apart from some members of the Royal Gibraltar Regiment serving, and geting medals for bravery in Afghanistan I'm puzzled what its got to do with us ...

--Gibnews 19:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ChrisO

Please do not threaten me.

Can I remind you of your comment:

I would agree that the WikiProject Spain template is inappropriate for the main Gibraltar article, because Gibraltar isn't part of Spain, but Gibraltar's history plainly does come under the WikiProject's scope. Please put nationalism to one side - you can hardly argue that Gibraltarian history has nothing to do with Spain. -- ChrisO 13:43 10 February 2007 (UTC)

What are we going to have next, Spanish flags on articles about South America, and Florida because at one time Spain occupied those lands?

The Gibraltar pages are about GIBRALTAR not Spain. But if we have to debate this lets do so, in the meantime, no provocation, and please no threats.

--Gibnews 20:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Do we need to continue this debate? I believe we should remove the Spanish flag but consider it essential that we gain consensus first, ie edit warring is not acceptable. This page is now unportected, please can we discuss the issue and leave the Spanish flag here in the meantime, SqueakBox 18:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries

[edit] WikiProject Spain

Following my personal 1RR, instead of reverting Astrotrain's reversion of my readding of the WikiProject Spain box I'm bringing the issue here for discussion. It seems absolutely clear to be that the Gibraltar article is obviously related to the history of Spain and therefore falls fully within the scope of WikiProject Spain. Adding the WikiProject tag here does not imply anything political about the relationship between Spain, the United Kingdom and Gibraltar, which appears to be the objection of both Astrotrain and Gibnews; rather, it says merely that this is an article that relates to the activities of that WikiProject. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 19:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

At first glance, this sounds logical to me.

If there was a WikiProject:History of Mexico or WikiProject:Mexico I would not object to them tagging the Talk pages of California and Texas. I would, however, object to them tagging all articles that are related to those two topics. (The Port of Houston and San Diego Padres are not sufficiently linked to Mexico to bear a tag from a WikiProject related to Mexico).

I would like to hear the counter-argument to this. Johntex\^talk 20:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I've been watching this page for a while, and I agree with Johntex. Gibraltar's history is intimately tied in with Spain, for better or for worse, and there's no escaping that. Gibraltar and History of Gibraltar are clearly within the scope of the Spain Wikiproject. I honestly don't really care about Wikiproject banners too much, but its removal here seems unjustified. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 21:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The history of Gibraltar and the dispute over sovereignty do involve Spain, however unless you are going to include Florida and most of South America in the Spain project Gibraltar itself should not because Spain has not involved in Gibraltar since 1704.

Adding the Spanish flag to anything to do with Gibraltar is analogous to posting images of the Swastika on the Israel page. The version by Asterion is a good compromise.

Can we leave it at that and move on.

--Gibnews 23:17, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

To say that 'Spain has not involved in Gibraltar since 1704' is something of a misrepresentation, I would suggest, since Spain's claims of sovereignty clearly have a continued involvement in the politics of Gibraltar right up to the present day, and the proximity of Spain has an obvious influence on Gibraltar's culture. Also, your reference to Nazism is needlessly emotive and quite unnecessary. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 00:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Its an accurate comparison, and Godwins law does not include symbols of oppression. The last time anyone displayed a Spanish flag this is what happened. --Gibnews

IMO Gibnews is right, this is no more under the Spain project than either Portugal or France, SqueakBox 23:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree with this last statement. Gibraltar can be both in the Spain and the UK project its not a big deal. Just as Ceuta can be in the Spain and in the Morocco project because of the political claim as well as the cultural, demographic, geographic and historical connections. I would also like to point out that Monaco and Andorra are in the France project so I believe that settles it... --Burgas00 01:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Its not settled at all. What has Gibraltar got to do with Spain? SqueakBox 01:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

What does the Vatican have to do with Italy? What does the West Bank have to do with Israel? What does Taiwan have to do with China? They are closely related topics thats all... Its as easy as that, France is not surrepticiously attempting to take over Andorra by means of Wikipedia and neither is Spain with Gibraltar... This is all quite childish, in my opinion. It is quite evident that it should be part of Wikiproject Spain. --Burgas00 01:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I would have thought with the hostility shown by Gibraltareans towards the Spanish claim that Gibraltar is a part of Spain is itself a good reason not to. We need a compromise and to add Gibraltar to the Spanish project isnt right now that compromise, SqueakBox 01:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Well Im sure the Palestinians are quite hostile towards living under Israeli occupation but not even they would vent their anger by wanting the West Bank not to form part of Wikiproject: Israel, or Wikiproject Israel and Occupied territories. The aim of the Projects is to coordinate and cooperate in closely related articles, regardless of Gibnews' political stance. I assume you also consider that the UK military bases of Akrotiri and Dhekelia should be excluded from a potential "wikiproject cyprus". Im serious, this is ridiculous. The whole project enterprise is about cooperation not about politics. --Burgas00 02:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

And to Gibnews: I understand that your knee jerk reaction was to oppose this, but have a look at what wiki projects involve (I just have) and you will see that it is only logical to include Gibraltar... This would help improve Gibraltar related articles in the long term and Wikipedia in general.--Burgas00 02:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Taiwan is a part of Wikiproject China, despite de facto sovereignty for many years and unlikely reunification in the near future. Why? Because they are not only historically intertwined, they are politically intertwined today. Taiwan is an important issue for both Taiwan themselves and China. Western Sahara would be part of Wikiproject Morocco if it existed, Ceuta and Mellila would fall under Spain and Morocco, and so on. Certainly this doesn't fall under the Portugal or France Wikiprojects, Squeakbox. But it certainly does fall under Wikiproject Spain. Your note that the banner removal is due to "the hostility shown by Gibraltareans towards the Spanish claim" clearly shows that you're forgetting the fact that this is a project coordination issue — NOT the heated political issue you're making this out to be. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 04:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and I don't think the scope of a Wikiproject should be subject to the veto of a single user. The fact is that as a disputed territory on the Iberian mainland, Gibraltar's political, historical, economic and geographical background does very clearly overlap with that of Spain (and I say that as a Brit who strongly supports Gibraltarians' right to self-determination). If Wikiproject Spain leads to more Spanish editors working on Gibraltar-related articles, that can only be a good thing. Gibnews has done a sterling (pun intended!) job of improving these articles but to ensure that NPOV is met, we need to encourage a wider range of editors to contribute. More fundamentally, as a collaborative project we absolutely shouldn't be sending a message to Spanish editors that they're not wanted on Gibraltar-related articles. If they want to help, that can only be a good thing.

Perhaps it might be possible to compromise by making this page the subject of two Wikiprojects - Spain and a new Gibraltar project, or maybe a wider British Overseas Territory project? -- ChrisO 08:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Spanish Gibraltar has already been covered in the 'History of Gibraltar' the only thing we are likely to get from Spanish editors is more edit wars.

Although I make a lot of noise, recently there have been a number of contributions from other Gibraltarian editors, they are starting to participate because they don't have to slog it out endlesly with people with an anti-Gibraltar agenda, as did the banned user Gibraltarian. The time and energy of spanish editors can be better spent on other things where they do have first hand knowledge and not about Gibraltar regurgitating propaganda translated into English, or as we have had before, in Spanish.

Gibraltar is not Spain any more than Florida is. --Gibnews 10:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it's very, very inappropriate for you to try to exclude editors of a particular nationality. It's totally against Wikipedia's open-access ethos. I highly suggest that you go and read WP:OWN, since you appear to have some misconceptions on that issue. -- ChrisO 11:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not attempting to exclude anyone, just pointing out there are lots of other things that would be more productive and less likely to be offensive. --Gibnews 13:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Offensive to you, you mean? Like I said, neither you nor anyone else has a veto on this. -- ChrisO 17:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course, 'WikiProject Spain' doesn't mean 'Spanish editors', it means 'editors who are interested in Spain'. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 12:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Let me say this again, Gibraltar is not Spain. --Gibnews 13:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

True, but the scope of WikiProject Spain is "to expand and organise information better in articles related to the history, languages, and cultures of Spain" (bolding added). The Iberian Peninsula isn't purely Spain either (where's Gibraltar located, again?) but it's part of the WikiProject nonetheless. -- ChrisO 17:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

So? It's entirely reasonable for editors who are interested in Spain to be interested in Gibraltar. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 22:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

What about Talk:Disputed status of Gibraltar and Talk:History of Gibraltar? Gibnews is substituting the Wikiproject Spain templates to remove the Spanish flags due to the "sensitivities of others". Though I won't comment on the flag issue here again, I'm not sure substitution of widespread templates subject to change is such a good idea. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 18:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

This is pointless and paranoid behaviour. Please Gibnews I ask you once more not to make a political issue out of this. In any case there is no other way forwards although I agree that Gibraltar can be subject to multiple wikiprojects including a UK one, of course.--Burgas00 18:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok removing the flag is just plain silly but I'm fine with it as long as it solves the problem.--Burgas00 18:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't care if the flag is there or not, it's just the fact that, to my knowledge, the template probably shouldn't be substituted. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 18:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think removing the Spanish flag would resolve the problem, SqueakBox 18:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to removing the flag, but I don't think it's necessary. I don't consider Hispanophobia to be a valid reason for removing the flag. -- ChrisO 19:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think we all agree on that. But its not really worth the effort of having an argument over...--Burgas00 21:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Good then don't, but Gibraltar is not Spain and the project is not about the Iberian peninsular its about SPAIN. Suggest you add it to Portugal and see what they think of it. Similarly Spain is not Gibraltar. --Gibnews 11:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time, 'this article is part of WikiProject Spain' does not imply that 'Gibraltar is Spain'. You're arguing against a position that no other editor has actually taken up and which you have invented yourself. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 12:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Then why is it there ? Looks very much like a Spanish flag to me. Go and put on on the Portugal page and see what they say. --Gibnews 17:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

It's there for the same reason that WikiProject tags are attached to any talk page: because the article is one that stands to benefit from the contributions of members of that WikiProject. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 17:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

But Gibraltar is not Spain. Is it going to go on the page discussing every European Territory to 'improve' those ? I guess not. Add it to Portugal and see what they have to say. --Gibnews 17:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how many times I'm going to have to repeat this, but no one is claiming that Gibraltar is Spain. The WikiProject Spain banner does not imply that Gibraltar is part of Spain. It implies only that this is an article which stands to be improved by editors who are interested in 'expanding and organising information better in articles related to Spain', which is the purpose of that WikiProject.

Your Portugal suggestion is another straw man: it should be clear to even the most partisan participant here that Gibraltar, which was once part of Spain and whose politics both internationally and domestically continues to be heavily influenced by Spain, falls much more clearly within the scope of WikiProject Spain than Portugal, since from their inception as nations Portugal has never been part of Spain (though for a period at the turn of the sixteenth century they were governed by the same monarch). --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 19:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think Gibnews's comments show that his objection is based on the flag of Spain being unacceptable in terms of Gibraltarian nationalist politics. But as Jimbo Wales has made clear, Wikipedia is not censored to conform with local standards of political correctness. We have a detailed article on the Tiananment Square massacre which definitely doesn't conform with the Chinese Communist Party's line. We show the cartoons that were the subject of the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, despite millions of Muslims finding them offensive. We show the old Flag of the Republic of Macedonia in the Vergina Sun article, despite Greek objections. Bottom line, Gibnews has every right to state his opinion, but we can't and won't (and don't) censor Wikipedia for purely political reasons. -- ChrisO 19:13, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Your examples are in the main space whereas this flag isnt, which I think makes a difference, SqueakBox 19:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The same principle applies anywhere in Wikipedia. More so on talk pages, I would have thought, as they're meant to be used for free and unfettered discussion of sometimes controversial issues. Users may post content which other users don't like. That doesn't mean that anyone gets a veto on what is posted (other than content which violates our legal policy, of course!). -- ChrisO 19:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Just come across this debate. On the subject of Portugal, check out the Talk:Portuguese Empire page, which is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Indonesia and as a result as an Indonesian flag emblazoned on it, apparently without controversy. I agree with everything ChrisO says. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 00:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Gibraltar created

I've created Wikipedia:WikiProject Gibraltar, complete with template, userbox etc. Everyone with an interest is invited to sign up and start tagging the Gib-related articles. I've already tagged Talk:Spain, by the way... -- ChrisO 18:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC)--ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 12:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

This Not the answer, and it does not address the inclusion of an offensive image on Gibraltar related pages. I was quite happy with the solution from Asterion which included a tag on pages of joint interest only but omitted the flag. Can we go back to this and please get back to creating pages instead more useless garbage templates.

I see no reason to include Spain its really very silly and inapropriate, you might as well include the rest of Europe.

It would be nice if you undid all this ! --Gibnews 20:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to see that you're not keen in participating in a WikiProject. I'm sure the rest of us can take good care of it, though you'd be welcome to join any time. As for including Spain, it's just a recognition of the fact that the scopes of WikiProjects Spain and Gibraltar overlap. Nobody seems to have objected to including the Gib template on Talk:Spain... -- ChrisO 22:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure they will, but I really don't thing filling up Wikipedia with flags and templates is a substitute for information. Although wikipedia spain is a valid project, the basis for this is dubious, and I'm in favour of all things Gibraltarian, but not nonsense for the sake of it.

And my objection to the Spanish flag remains --Gibnews 11:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

It's very unfortunate that you're being so negative about it. Perhaps you have a misunderstanding about what a WikiProject is for - see Wikipedia:WikiProject: "A WikiProject is a collection of pages devoted to the management of a specific topic or family of topics within Wikipedia; and, simultaneously, a group of editors that use said pages to collaborate on encyclopedic work. It is not a place to write encyclopedia articles directly, but a resource to help coordinate and organize article writing. The attached talk pages are a convenient forum for those interested in a particular project." It's a well-established tool on Wikipedia for improving the coordination of article development on a particular topic.

I've removed your PROD from Wikipedia:WikiProject Gibraltar, as you haven't offered any reason other than what amounts to WP:IDONTLIKEIT, which is never a valid reason for deletion. There is really no good reason not to have a WikiProject on this subject - there are certainly enough articles (well over 100) on Gibraltar to make the thing worthwhile. Hopefully it will also have the effect of encouraging more editors to become involved in Gib-related articles. It's being advertised for the next week on the community bulletin board to raise its profile. -- ChrisO 18:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the obvious compromise is to keep the Gib project page and remove the Spanish flag from this talk page, SqueakBox 18:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out to Gibnews that the Olivenza article (a Spanish town claimed by Portugal) is part of wikiproject spain and wikipedia portugal and, yes, the Portuguese flag is present on its talk page. As far as I can see no Spanish wikipedians are going ballistic over this affront to their sovereignty... so please reconsider. --Burgas00 19:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing to reconsider. Olivenza is a totally seperate issue, my understanding is that Spain annexed it, and defaulted on an agreement to return the territory to Portugal - however as the people living there are not concerned either way, its a non-issue.

Gibraltar is not Spain. When Spain allows the Gibraltar tourist office to put up a Gibraltar flag on its premises AND Gibraltarian athletes are allowed to flay the Gibraltar flag in Spain, lets discuss it again.

Sticking a small Gibraltar flag and a template on pages is not the answer. A plain template on the pages previously mentioned is a good compromise, and the template was created by Asterion not me.

But never mind Olivenza, put a Spanish flag on the Portugal talk page and see what they say. Then try Florida. --Gibnews 22:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

• I think the objection to the flag is overblown. The Spanish flag flies at the United Nations and no one thinks Spain owns New York City. It flies at the Alamo and no one thinks Spain still owns Texas. I have added the WikiProject Spain template to the US states of Florida, Texas and California due to to the historical connection and cultural influence of Spain on these parts of the US. We need to stop worrying about a little image here and get back to actually improving articles. Johntex\^talk 01:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

You are free to think whatever you like, but the fact remains that there are no Spanish flags to be found in Gibraltar. Although thousands of Spanish nationals visit Gibraltar regularly without any problems, they have the courtesy not to come waving flags in our faces. When the Government of Spain stops its persecution of Gibraltar and renounces its outdated territorial claim their flags will be seen here along with other European states flags, but today you won't find one. Thats the way it is. --Gibnews 08:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

If we can source this about no Spanish flags in Gibraltar we should include it in the article, SqueakBox 15:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

What is this about Olivenza being completely different? Olivenza is a town on the Spanish/Portuguese border owned by Spain since the Spanish war of independece and claimed by Portugal. Its people are very concerned about which country they belong to, as would anyone. Gibraltar is a town in Southern Spain conquered by the United Kingdom in the 18th century, and under British sovereignty, and its people are also concerned over which country they belong to. What is the difference? I dare say the only difference, for Wikipedia at least, is User Gibnews. I'm sure that if the inhabitants of Olvenza spoke English and contributed to wikipedia, they would not object to the presence of the Spanish or of the Portuguese flag on the talk page of the article for the town, since (as is the case of Gibraltar), their culture, history, heritage and day to day life, is intrinsically tied to both countries.

Well I deont think we can speak for the people of Olivenza though I note that while the en and pt versions mention the dispute in the opening the es version only mentions it way down. If Gibnews is the difference between Gibraltar and Olivenza then we are lucky to have him, SqueakBox 15:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't really quite get you squeakbox. I believe you have lost track of what we are arguing about. We are talking about whether the article on Gibraltar can be linked to the Spain project. It is a silly argument because from any rational and logical position the answer can only be yes. I have no time for Gibnews' personal phobias which he wrongly attributes to the whole of his town and his discriminatory claim that "Spaniards" are inherently biased and must be discouraged if not barred from editing this and other articles. There is no rational argumentation here and we are just wasting our time and obstructing the normal self-improvement of wikipedia.--Burgas00 16:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Please remain civil as your comment could easil;y be interpreted as a personal attack against Gibnews and that kind of thing wont resolve the problem whereas removing the Spanish flag from this page would do so, SqueakBox 16:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about Gibnews, he is pretty thick skinned.  :-) --Burgas00 18:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

While I hear that I am concerned that incivility will discourage new editors from wanting to contribute, SqueakBox 18:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

There are a some points made by Burgas00 which need clarification;

I may be thick skinned but I'm not thick.

Although its a subtle point to attempt to label Gibraltar as a town its actually a territory' and as we have two cathedrals it contains a city not a town.

Any resentment I have is directed against the GOVERNMENT of Spain which continues to attempt to restrict the human rights of Gibraltarians in persuit of its outdated and unwelcome territorial claim rejected by 99% of Gibraltarians. There is no personal animosity directed to Spaniards who simply need to be educated to know the difference between their Governments lies and reality.

Regretably the contributions of Spanish editors has largely consisted of whitewashing Spains's unacceptable behaviour whilst defaming Gibraltarians and our society, plus occasionally replacing the Gibraltar flag with theirs. There is still no reason given why Gibraltar which is NOT part of Spain should be in project Spain Will Spain next claim everything in the EU ?

--Gibnews 09:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. I leave it to other users to deal with Gibnews.--Burgas00 15:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Since Gibnews is apparently unwilling to listen to anyone on this issue - the scope of WikiProject Spain has been explained often enough - and since consensus is against him, I've taken the somewhat unusual step of locking the templates in place and transcluding the talk page from here. This will prevent any further disruption of this talk page while hopefully not affecting people's ability to contribute to it. -- ChrisO 15:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I see you have changed your view from when you originally said that Gibraltar was not within the scope of a this project, and now wish to enforce this based on support from a handful of Spanish editors and people who do not have a clue about the subject.

Congratulations, you have succeded today. Tomorrow is another day. --Gibnews 17:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Gibnews perhaps you should learn a bit from this fellow Gibraltarian who has Spanish flags posted all over his user page

-)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gibmetal77

--Burgas00 15:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ¿Why does evil Spain claim Gibraltar?

After reading the article, some doubts got my mind by assault...The main is "why those evil spaniards want Gibraltar back?" The gibraltarians love the Union Jack, they form a human chain around the rock dressed in shorts, they vote NO in the referendum for the shared sovereignty by a 103% ehh excuse me, by a 99%, and furthermore Spain protects pederastians, and systematically cut off the relevant investigations of the Gibraltarian police about criminals going into Spanish borders, spanish fishermen having illegal campaigns in such a rich waters of Gibraltar, and they also restrict the human rights...Why I have not a clue about why the Spaniards are so shameless to claim Gibraltar?

Maybe, because in article dont appear words such as "drug traffic", "tax free", "western mafia", "washing money" or "fiscal paradise".

Well, maybe the most of the gibraltarian populacion have nothing to do with such bussiness (despite Gibraltar has more anonymous fiscal societies based on than inhabitants), but what is clear is that it should be great take the car and get loss into Spain ussing Spanish hospitals, highways, parks, beaches, international airports, and all kind of public services without-paying-a-cent-in-taxes Hey, each month 300 Euro of my salary go to the damn Government! I also wanna be British!

I am not telling that as an absolute truth, it is just my point of view, but the fail to show in the article something about the Spanish view of the problem makes the article partial, unclear and, in one word: BAD. Is somebody going to correct it?

Kiko 11/3/07

The article does need a bit of work - we're going to have to be careful to ensure that we've got the balance right between the Gibraltarian, Spanish and British points of view. -- ChrisO 11:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Why do we need to consider the 'Spanish point of view' if its nonsense and lies ?

1. There is no mention of 'Drug traffic' because the flow of drugs is from Spain (where drugs are legal) to Gibraltar where they are not.

2. Gibraltar is not tax free, income tax is quite high, higher than in Spain for instance.

3. Money laundering? what money laundering ...

Let me quote from the House of Commons report 1999

(7) We conclude that the series of allegations which Spain makes against Gibraltar appear almost wholly to be without substance. In many cases, it is not just the Government of Gibraltar but the British Government as well which is traduced. It is deeply regrettable that allegations are made that cannot be sustained by a basis in fact. If concrete evidence of wrong-doing were produced, the British Government should act promptly to deal with the problem. But so long as allegations are unsubstantiated, the British Government should continue to rebut them promptly and decisively. (Paragraph 57)

4. I believe the Mafia are a sicilian organisation and do not have a representative branch listed in the Gibraltar telephone directory.

5. Quite what a 'fiscal paradise' might be is a mystery - it seems to be a phrase used by very ignorant people about things they do not understand.

6. Gibraltarians do indeed use Spanish hospitals, and British hospitals on a commercial basis reports indicate that the Spanish ones are often better equipped than the UK ones and can be accessed without flying. They encourage paying patients which helps to subsidise the service they provide to Spaniards.

7. Spanish fishermen are a plague all around the world and are driving fish into extinction. However if caught fishing with illegal nets in Gibraltar waters they end up in court.

8. No, Gibraltar does NOT have more anonymous fiscal societies based on than inhabitants Thats what we call a lie.

Yes there is something wrong with the popular Spanish view of Gibraltar IF that was an example.

But you know I thought we were compiling an honest reference work, and those untrue allegations belong on a page 'false propaganda the Spanish Government propagate about Gibraltar in support of its outdated territorial claim' and it becomes very tedious to continually have to refute this sort of nonsense.

--Gibnews 19:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

1-So the flow of drugs is from Spain right? Well, it is a point that the Spanish Police and Guardia Civil don´t share with you. Usually, the Spanish Coast Guard helicopters have to abort their prosecution when fast ships having Moroccan drugs on board enter Gibraltarian waters.

2-Really the Gibraltarian taxes are higher than the Spanish ones? How much money an average Gibraltarian pay to the Ministerio de Fomento? Which average part of the Gibraltarian taxes go to pay all the Spanish services that they use? Let me guess: zero percent? In my home I also suffer high taxes. All the money that does not go to the Spanish government, goes to me. I pay a 100% of my salary in taxes for me!! my home is the place with the higher taxes in the world.

3- Money laundaring? what money laundaring... Haha. Ok, I like jokes during discussions. I will believe that you was trying to be funny. Otherwise I would think that you live in Wonderland playing cricket with Alice.

Actually, a House of Commons' report is assumed by me as the most impartial point of view about the Gibraltarian problem under the Sun (Hehe excuse me, now i am the one who is kidding).

4-Gibraltar is view as a "hot point" by Spanish Police and CNI in the issues related to the western (Russian, Romanian, Yugoslavian, Kosovar, etc) mafias that commit all kind of crimes in southern Spain.

5-Gibraltar is assumed as a fiscal paradise by whatever the economist around the world saving the British/Gribraltarian ones.

6-The waste of money of Spanish public hospitals hosting Gibraltarian (and British) citizens is higher than the money the "Paying patients" pay, by far. In fact, there have been reported many cases of people with cronical illness hosted or operated in Spanish public hospitals. There have been even reports of people who fly from the UK with a hearth attack or whatever the serious illness and once in Spain they go to a public hospital to recieve treatement saying that they suffered the attack while in holidays in Spain. You can ask whatever the doctor working in a Spanish hospital. The money British/Gibraltarian governments pay DOES NOT reach the cost by far. This "tradition" is not just a waste of money for Spanish social care system (that I PAY, and you dont, with the money i get working hard), but a serious risk for the patients.

7-Sure. And Spain should shot down all the aircrafts that violate the Spanish airspace while approaching the tinny Gibraltarian airport. Gibraltarian waters, the paradise for Spanish fishermen...hehehe ok, i assume you are again joking.

8-Ok, we agree at this point. I was wrong, and I beg for your pardon. Actually, Gibraltar has about 27.500 inhabitants and only 24.000 financial societies based in its territory. Sorry. There are not more financial societies based than inhabitants. It was not a lie, just ignorance.

Look. Dont missunderstand me. I would like to be Gibraltarian so much. This is the great life. Actually, what moves to Spanish people when they protest about this shameful situation, is the envy. I also would like to enjoy the life in Spain without paying a cent and without "dar un palo al agua" as we say in Spain.

Cheers my friend! Kiko 3/4/07

I hope you feel better for that rant, I do not pay Spanish taxes, apart from IVA when visiting, because I live in Gibraltar which is not Spain.

The is no evidence for any of the criminality you refer to, and as previously stated, The Government of Gibraltar pays the commercial rate for healthcare provided in the UK or Spain, as do private patients.

If you are not happy with taxes in Spain, go somewhere else. Regretably as a Spanish citizen you cannot apply to become a Gibraltarian.

Although its useful for others to see the nonsense spewed up as a result of a diet of propaganda, its important to keep Wikipedia factual. If you have any further comments please take them somewhere appropriate this is not a message board --Gibnews 08:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The article does have some whiff of bias though. Do we really care what Conservative MP Andrew Rosindell has to say about "the Gibraltarian People's pride in being British?" Villamota 16:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This is not a message board, and this discussion has not sense anymore. But as you think the Spanish points are spewed up as a result of a diet propaganda, I think Gibraltarian points are the usual ones of a sponger. Gibraltarian points are what a flea would tell to the dog in wich it lives in order to stay in such a warm and comfortable skin for ever. As you see, we both have our personal opinions which don´t matter here, since this is an encyclopedia. But I agree also that we need to keep the Wikipedia factual, and this is why I think the article is partial and unclear, and need to be compensated. As I said before, there is not even a shadow of the Spanish point about the Gibraltarian problem. I would do so by myself, but unfortunatelly, as you can see, my english is not good enough. I hope somebody else will work a little bit more in it as ChrisO suggested.

Cheers, and goodbye! Kiko 4/4/2007

Your sentiment is noted. --Gibnews 01.34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UK Overseas Territory vs British Overseas Territory

Gibnews keeps reverting this and refused to engage with a discussion I tried to commence with him on his talk page. The fact is that legally, as per the British Overseas Territories Act 2002, Gibraltar along with the thirteen other territories are called the British Overseas Territories. The act itself can be read here: As the territories mentioned in Schedule 6 to the British Nationality Act 1981 (c. 61) are now known as "British overseas territories". I don't deny that the FCO may refer to Gibraltar as a "UK Overseas Territory", but that is not its correct, legal, name. Does anyone else have any opinions on this? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 20:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You're right that FCO uses both terms interchangeably - see [1]. However, a Google search shows that "British Overseas Territory" (81,600 hits) is more widely used than "UK Overseas Territory" (13,400 hits). On this basis I suggest using "British Overseas Territory" as the commonest and legally correct term, though it might be a good idea to use a compromise form of words such as "a British (or UK) Overseas Territory" to cover both bases. -- ChrisO 22:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

. -- ChrisO 22:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

He's reverted it again, again without contributing to this discussion. I've now reverted three times - would someone else care to do the honours? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 23:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I've asked him to discuss the matter here on the talk page and I'd request you to do the same. Revert wars aren't productive. This should be sorted out by dialogue, not by reverting or asking others to revert. -- ChrisO 23:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I've dropped a line to the FCO to ask them which is the preferred term. I'll let you know what they say. -- ChrisO 23:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice one. Hopefully they should have a bit more spare time on their hands after developments in Iran. ;-p The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 23:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope. :-) The lights are still on in King Charles Street as I type this; they're in the middle of working out the logistics of getting Our Boys™ home from Tehran... -- ChrisO 23:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I can demonstrate at a stroke why the FCO website cannot be used as a reference for this: it uses both "British" and "UK".

• FCO Gibraltar travel advice page: "Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory".
• FCO Gibraltar country profiles page: "Status: UK Overseas Territory"

Quite clearly, in common parlance, both terms are used. However, equally clearly, according to the wording of the two Acts of Parliament that determine the legal status of the overseas territories, "British overseas territory" is the correct legal term. I find it bizarre why User:Gibnews would disagree with this, but now I have demonstrated that the FCO website uses both (as well as the Gibraltar website), he should retract his claim that this is wrong, and that I am vandalising the article. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 00:18, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed the fact that ChrisO already noted that the FCO uses both. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 01:19, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

More on the FCO's terminology. The following is a quote (with my bold emphasis) from the Explanatory Notes to British Overseas Territories Act, which was (to quote verbatim) "prepared by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in order to assist the reader in understanding the Act":

• "There are fourteen British overseas territories: Anguilla, Bermuda, British Antarctic Territory, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, Pitcairn Islands, St Helena and Dependencies, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, the Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus, and the Turks and Caicos Islands."

Although the FCO uses both on its website, when writing explanatory notes about the Act, it sticks to the official, legal name. I should point out that Encyclopaedia Britannica uses the term British overseas territory too. And the BBC. So too should WP. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 02:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Gibnews wrote on his talk page (which I will write here because he is presently blocked for 3RR violation): "The BBC make factual errors some of which they correct. However the FCO take a lot of care on their country profiles and they are up-to-date and 100% correct although other parts of their website may be wrong, or express a historical view. The 2002 act was correct in 2002, the correct designation for Gibraltar in 2007 is a UK overseas territory". It is preposterous of him to claim words to the effect that "the FCO website is correct in the bits that serve my purpose, but there is a factual error in the bits where it does not". That is an unfalsifiable argument, and one that deserves to be thrown out of the window. Gibnews has provided no evidence to suggest that there has been an official name change (unsurprisingly, because no act has superceded the 2002 one). The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 10:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's what the FCO had to say in answer to my query: "Thank you for your query regarding the terminology of the use of Overseas Territories. Both terms - British Overseas Territories and UK Overseas Territories are used, but the British Overseas Territories was used in the British Overseas Territories Act 2002." So it would seem that it doesn't actually matter which one is used. -- ChrisO 19:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice, glad to see they got back to you, and quickly too. I guess that merely confirms what we were saying all along. However, it does completely disprove Gibnews' claim "other parts of their website may be wrong, or express a historical view. The 2002 act was correct in 2002, the correct designation for Gibraltar in 2007 is a UK overseas territory." Given that it is the term used in the Act (and therefore the legal term) and given that the WP article is named British Overseas Territory, and given that the BOT article now says (thanks to ChrisO) another name is UK Overseas Territory, and furthermore, given that it is bad style to drop in acronyms without introducing them, I suggest the right thing to do is leave in its current state, "British Overseas Territory". I'll remove the overreferences that I added yesterday. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 21:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as both terms are valid, I see no reason why the term UK Overseas Territory should be withdrawn. I suggest that in order to comprise the both terms and not overlook any in particular (which may be usable or valid nonetheless) both should be included. I believe someone mentioned this before. As so, there will be no seclusion of a categorically valid term, and furthermore, it will have an evenhanded influence. Chris Buttigieg 22:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The dual use is now recorded in Wikipedia in the British Overseas Territory article. It's going somewhat overboard to say "British (or UK) overseas territory" just to resolve this (rather bizarre) dispute - I think we can all agree that no other source uses that "double" term. So WP should use one or the other. However, instead of "UK Overseas Territory", "Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom" is a better way of phrasing it, because the acronym "UK" is not being dropped into the article without introduction. But, what is the objection to not using the legal name, and that of the linked-to article? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 23:05, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

This is nonsense, for a very simple reason - 'British' does not have any meaning in a territorial context. 'British' refers to a nationality not a territory - UK does, its the name of a member state of the EU and has a precise meaning. Thats why its termed a UK Overseas Territory.

"British refers to a nationality not a territory"???? You have excelled yourself with that statement. You are confusing the noun - the British (people) - with the adjective - of or pertaining to Britain, its people, language or culture. British territory means territory belonging to Britain. Gibraltar is British territory. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 03:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Although ChrisO has got an quick answer from the FCO, there is no doubt a more detailed one available. Why is it important? Because Gibraltar is different to the other overseas territories in being part of the EU with the UK being the member state responsible for certain things. The FCO have changed the name it refers to Gibraltar by a number of times and not all the references are up-to-date, however they do make a major effort with the country profiles, which I cited, which was Last reviewed - 09 January 2007 and that is, I feel the best source to check information on Wikipedia against, the travel advice page has only had the general section updated, probably to reflect international dialling code changes.

I did ask The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick to discuss the matter on this talk page, and feel that shouting at me on my user page was not a productive way to progress the matter, nor was continually reverting the description and removing the definitive reference added.

I feel that ammounted to vandalism and thus it was reasonable to revert it back and labeled it as such. As I've been banned its hard to continue the discussion, although that will no doubt make some happy, I am pleased to see there are other Gibraltarians around to ensure that it does not describe us as 'spongers and fleas' or some of the nonsense there used to be.

--Gibnews 01.56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I find it very concerning how every time evidence is cited that disagrees with your position, you find new and increasingly odd reasons for it not to be admissible. I look forward to you providing references that demonstrate what you say is the case, and that these claims do not represent your own original research or point of view. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 01:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Let me make a suggestion. Since both terms seem to be be used, we could in principle use either. However, which term does Gibraltar itself use - does it self-identify as a British or a UK Overseas Territory? This seems like a situation in which WP:NCON should be applied. -- ChrisO 07:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Even though absolutely no objectively verifiable evidence or rational reason has been put forward to say that British Overseas Territory should not be used, let's try that approach:

Criterion	British Overseas Territory	UK Overseas Territory
1. Most commonly used name in English	"British Overseas Territory" - 82,100 google hits "British Overseas Territory" Gibraltar - 19,900 hits 1 point	"UK Overseas Territory" - 13,300 google hits "UK Overseas Territory" Gibraltar - 687 hits 0 points
2. Current undisputed official name of entity	The British Overseas Territory Act, 2002 1 point	No evidence provided yet to the contrary that Gibraltar's legal status has changed. 0 points
3. Current self-identifying name of entity	"British overseas territory" in the .gi suffix - 78 google hits 1 point	"UK overseas territory" in the .gi suffix - 4 hits 0 points
	3 points	0 points

Seems absolutely categorical to me, even - for the sake of argument - allowing zero points for number 2. Until evidence is put forward, there is no point in continuing this debate. Evidence, incidentally, does not constitute the ludicrously farcical attempt at putting forward evidence below - "I checked with a lawyer who says that the correct form is UK Overseas Territory, because 'British' is meaningless for the reasons give above" The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 11:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

A cursory Google search is not evidence why a particular term should be excluded from use, its legal status notwithstanding. If both terms have demonstrated their acceptability, I feel that more proof is needed before the debate is settled. In my opinion, the table is misleading, asserting how this predomination of Google hits is indeed clear-cut proof, when in actual fact it is inconsequential. As Gibnews said, I think it best that the wording is taken from the Falklands page which has it both ways, and use that until there is a definitive answer. Chris Buttigieg 14:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

A google search is inconsequential is it? Read this: WP:NCON#Identification_of_common_names_using_external_references. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 15:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Nevertheless, simply because one term is more prevalent in English, why should the other 13,300 hits be dismissed or rendered nonentities? I understand your point, I just feel that the table is a misleading illustration, and I still feel that people are jumping to conclusions. Chris Buttigieg 15:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

There has to be a way to resolve disputes like this though, and that WP page outlines the best way to do it. Noone is denying that "UK Overseas Territory" is used. The question is, which do we use here? The evidence so far points to three things: (1) the FCO uses both - as evidenced by browsing their site and ChrisO's reponse from them, the Government of Gibraltar website uses both, the BBC and Britannica use "BOT", the CIA "Overseas Territory of the UK" (2) "British Overseas Territory" is the name used in the most recent, currently in force, Act of Parliament determining the legal status of the territories and their citizens (3) "British Overseas Territory" is the more commonly used name on the internet, globally (4x more) and within Gibraltar itself (20x more). In the light of that evidence, until evidence is put forward to the contrary, the case for "British Overseas Territory" is much, much stronger. I'm happy to discuss empirically verifiable evidence to the contrary - I am still waiting for some. All we have had so far is opinions from Gibnews, ranging from claims about the semantics of the term "British" to claims that he asked "a lawyer", to suggestions that Acts of Parliament can be superceded by the wording on a government website. Note that there is no opinion of mine in the three points outlined above, they are evidence that anyone here can verify independently. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 16:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I feel that given that it is a contentious matter, and not yet fully resolved, that its unfair to impose the current wording and and contrary to the comment 'the debate is over' its not.

However, as a compromise, can I suggest to Chriso to take the wording from the Falklands page which in effect does have it both ways and uses that until there is a definitive answer.

In terms of local usage, I checked with a lawyer who says that the correct form is UK Overseas Territory, because 'British' is meaningless for the reasons give above. There is a lot of confusion about the subject and I researched it for a TV programme recently, note that was research not original research.

Although the dispute may sound similar to 'Romans they go to the house' the centurian was correct.

I'm refraining from editing as my router IP still seems to be blocked. Have a nice Easter I'm off to exploit the Spanish state and spend money abroad. Perhaps I can find some telefonica IP's to steal.

--Gibnews 10.10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe substantial weight should be afforded to the legal documents establishing Gibraltar's existance. The British Overseas Territories Act (2002) is very persuasive. The entity's own terminology is also important. Other people's terminology is less important.

The Gibraltar government's website makes no mention as far as I see. What the BBC or Google uses may be notable to reach a conclusion about practical use, but are not authoritative determination. If they were the deciding factor, then consider calling Gibraltar part of Spain because that the Spanish view (at least, some of them)!

Would the editors like to consider this text (includes text and footnote/reference)?

Gibraltar is a British overseas territory ^[1] located near the southernmost tip of the....

Discussion is useful. Please don't try to report each other and try to seek sanctions. This just creates ill will. Gibraltar is supposed to be a happy place! On my talk page, I even have included a flag of Gibraltar even though I have just visited there and don't live there.VK35 20:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd be OK with that, but... isn't it enough that the British Overseas Territory article now has words to this effect (which I added myself, expanding on an addition by ChrisO) - "The British Overseas Territories are also referred to as overseas territories of the United Kingdom[2], UK overseas territories[3], or when the context is clear, simply the Overseas Territories[4]." (The Gibraltar govt website uses all of these, in fact [2]) By doing it in one central place, it covers all fourteen overseas territories in one fell swoop. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 21:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The reason for my suggested footnote is to recognize the sentiment for "UK overseas territory". If there weren't such strong sentiment then the blue highlighted link would be enough and there wouldn't be any need for a footnote with the explanation. I wrote in the hopes of facilitating cooperation, try to reduce fighting and ill will, and because I like Gibraltar.VK35 21:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The reason given above for "UK Overseas Territory" is that Gibraltar is not a British Overseas Territory. No (verifiable) evidence has been put forward that verifies this claim. My reason for "British Overseas Territory" is that this is the official, legal name, and the most commonly used one. I, and another contributor, have put forward several (verifiable) sources that verify this claim. Like the debate below, a compromise would only be pandering to the POV of one hot headed contributor, not for any sensible reason. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 21:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Its not pandering to a POV its my uderstanding that the correct term is UK Overseas Territory if anything changing it is pandering to another editors POV simply because of the noise level.

However, I have made a formal request to the FCO and will get a detailed statement on the subject which will be published, no doubt there will be those who wish to argue further, but they will be wrong, and until such time as we declare UDI and become a republic whatever title the mandarins of the FCO say is correct IS the definitive version. --Gibnews 11:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flag

Do we need to continue this debate? I believe we should remove the Spanish flag but consider it essential that we gain consensus first, ie edit warring is not acceptable. This page is now unprotected, please can we discuss the issue and leave the Spanish flag here in the meantime, SqueakBox 18:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Gibnews' objection wasn't simply about the flag but about whether this article falls within the scope of WikiProject Spain. The unanimous consensus from other editors was that it does. The flag is secondary to that. Gibnews should respect this consensus rather than trying to impose a personal veto. -- ChrisO 18:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Unanimous consensus? Unanimouis means everyone whereas there were 2 dissenting voices, mine and Gibnews's, and if that is a definition of unanimous I am a Gibraltan. Come on, Chris, making untrue statements wont help in any way, SqueakBox 18:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, did I misread your earlier comments? I was under the impression that you had no objection to the article being within the scope of WikiProject Spain but that you did support the removal of the flag. Is that right? -- ChrisO 18:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont object to they're being a part of the Project Spain (neutral view) but I do support Gib that we shouldnt have a Spanish flag here. From my understanding it is the flag that is causing the controversy not the being a part of the Spain project, though I will also add that logically the 19 ex-Spanish colonies should also be a part of Project Spain but that it would be equally unacceptable to put the Spanish flag on those 19 talk pages and to be very clear tghere is no unanimous consensus to have the Spanish flag here, SqueakBox 19:02, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I without doubt advocate the removal of the Spanish flag on this talk page, on first sight I deemed it a joke and an attempt to purely inflame and provoke any Gibraltarians, which will in turn (and inevitably) cause endless edit wars. Understanding that it may perhaps fall under the scope of the project, well there's nothing I can do about that. Chris Buttigieg 20:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is easily resolvable by creating a new template with the Wiki Spain info and without the Spanish flag, SqueakBox 20:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Little reason has been offered for doing this other than appeasing the particular POVs of individual editors, which is certainly not a road we ought to be going down. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 21:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

SqueakBox's idea sounds good to me. I do not know what is WP's policy on political correctness, but it would certainly do a great deal in alleviating any umbrage. Chris Buttigieg 21:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I have put together various (unequivocal) points that I feel are why the removal of WikiProject Spain and needless to say, its attached flag should come about.

1. If WikiProject falls under the scope of Gibraltar because at one epoch in history Gibraltar was under Spanish rule, one would inevitably question why other former Spanish territories and colonies do not.

2. Likewise one would also question that, given that at one point in time Gibraltar was also Moorish, if there was a WikiProject Moorish should it not also fall under the scope of Gibraltar, surely there are many telltale signs of their occupation.

3. Seeing as Gibraltar is related to the history, languages, and cultures of Spain, should it not similarly fall under WikiProject United Kingdom? One can hardly argue that a Spanish project has more right to fall under the scope of a British territory than a British project does.

4. Finally, (with regards to the flag) WikiProject Spain should be removed, whereby its accompanying flag is politically incorrect. Political incorrectness is defined as language or conduct that could give offence, e.g. on the basis of ethnic origin or sexual orientation, and as I am sure most people are well aware, the Spanish flag is offensive to Gibraltarians, not to the POVs of particular contributors, but a whole people.

I hope I have made myself clear. Chris Buttigieg 10:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this. For clarity, I'll respond to each of your points using the same numbering.

1. They do. WikiProject Spain is interested in all articles 'related to the history, languages, and cultures of Spain', so this might include other historical colonies too.

2. Yes, Gibraltar might well fall under the scope of a putative 'WikiProject Moorish', as of course would the article for Spain itself.

3. Yes, it would be reasonable to assume that Gibraltar also falls under the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom (although that project has largely been split up into many more specific sub-projects such as WikiProject Wales, WikiProject Greater Manchester, and so on: WikiProject Gibraltar might be considered one of these too). WikiProject scopes are not intended to be mutually exclusive: the article doesn't have to be tagged as part of either WikiProject A or WikiProject B, it can quite happily be tagged as relevant to both.

4. Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive.

Hopefully this clears up the relationship of WikiProjects to articles (in particular, that one article can be considered part of many separate WikiProjects); it's probably worth reiterating that the fact that this article falls within the scope of WikiProject Spain categorically does not imply any kind of statement on Gibraltar's current political situation. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 11:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Chris Buttigieg, the fact that other articles on colonies are or are not parts of the wikiprojects of their former rulers is neither here nor there: at the end of the day, it's just a tag that someone has or has not yet seen fit to add. But, you might want to look at the Macau talk page, Macau is an ex-Portuguese colony in China, and is part of both Wikiproject Portugal and Wikiproject China, and shows the Portuguese flag. What is important is the definition of what a wikiproject is. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 12:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

If WikiProkject Spain is interested in all articles 'related to the history, languages, and cultures of Spain' shouldn't Antigua and Barbuda, Cuba, Hispaniola, Jamaica, Puerto Rico and the other myriad territories which were once Spanish be tagged with WikiProject Spain. They may not be Spain, yet they are related to the history etc of Spain, just as Gibraltar is.

It is preposterous to assert that a WikiProject Moorish would fall under the scope of Gibraltar - therefore I surmise that a Wikiproject Romans/Vandals/Phoenicians and everything else Gibraltar once was would also fall under the scope of Gibraltar.

Notwithstanding the fact that WikiProject United Kingdom may have branched into other sub-projects, it has an equal right to be present on this page just as Spain does, if not more.

I respect that Wikipedia contains content which some readers may find objectionable or offensive, yet what I am trying to say is that the removal of the flag is not to appease the POVs of specific contributors, but to prevent offence. Chris Buttigieg 11:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Offence is a POV though. You find the sight of the Spanish flag offensive on the Gibraltar talk page, I do not. We have differing points of view on this subject. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick 12:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure you're reading what I've written accurately. The WikiProject tags are not mutually exclusive: the only reason there isn't a 'WikiProject United Kingdom' tag on this article is that no editor has put one there yet (well, and because, as I stated above, no such WikiProject United Kingdom actually exists). Similarly, it would be perfectly reasonable for, to take one of your examples, Cuba to be tagged with a 'WikiProject Spain' tag: the fact that it hasn't just means no one has done it yet.

You're also missing the point about objectionable or offensive content. Let's have a hypothetical counterexample: a Spaniard whose ancestors were expelled from Gibraltar by the invading British forces in the eighteenth century. This hypothetical Spaniard finds the Gibraltarian flag as offensive as you find the Spanish flag. Should it be removed from the article? Of course not. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 17:35, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Nobody has tried to do it yet but my guess is there would be a lot of resistance. We are supposed to be an inclusive encyclopedia whereas this flag is turning more people away than it is bringing here. To use a Spanish term "no vale la pena" (not worth the hassle), SqueakBox 18:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the point, but it would nevertheless be a rather worrying precedent: we're being asked to remove a perfectly legitimate tag on no grounds other than that an arbitrary symbol it uses makes some users unhappy. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\^talk 19:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay fair enough, I respect the fact that being offensive is evidently no excuse to Wikipedia, and I therefore cannot continue to argue solely as a Devil's advocate. I have nonetheless mentioned what I feel are logical reasons, regardless whether they are valid or not in Wikipedia. In addition I would like to remark that this symbol does not 'make some users unhappy', I would say more of a 'rensentful displeasure' or 'offence' and futhermore I have now tagged Gibraltar are part of WikiProject UK. Chris Buttigieg 20:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• I'm just chiming in to say that I don't have a strong opinion about the flag at this point. I do feel strongly that the Article should stay in all 3 WikiProjects. I would also like to point out that on March 1, 2007 I tagged both Talk:Texas and Talk:California with WikiProject Spain. Those tags quickly got replaced with WikiProject Mexico tags, which I agree are more relevant. The WikiProject Mexio tags have stayed there ever since, with no objections. The analogy is a very good one. Mexico once controlled all or most of Texas and California and there continue to be interconnected interests even today. Johntex\^talk 02:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

My view is that these projects add little apart from clutter, Although there is an argument that the history of Gibraltar is linked with Spain, the argument that the main article should form part of a foreign project is weak, and the inclusion of a nationalist symbol is offensive, there are NO Spanish flags in Gibraltar for that reason. --Gibnews 11:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no such think as a "foreign project" here. all these projects are part of Wikipedia. This is not a nationalist endeavor. Johntex\^talk 15:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)