Talk:Geronimo

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Contents 1 Religion 1.1 deletion 2 Biography Comments by Rcollman 26 November 2006 (UTC) 3 Application server called Geronimo 4 Geronimo vs. Geromino 5 Mexicans 6 Photographs of Skeleton Canyon 7 Hell(tori) 8 Native American religion? 9 Skull and Bones

[edit] Religion

Can we cite our references in this section? It is important to recognize different perspectives that see "the facts" a little bit differently. I will try to find the source for Geronimo's Christian beliefs. But I want to make sure that a decendant stated that Geronimo 'returned to the teachings of his childhood,' before I attribute it. Personally, I can accept and understand the basis for both statements, Thanks --Rcollman 12:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

After an extensive search, I could not find any confirmation that Geronimo renounced Christianity. There was a point where he lapsed back into alcoholism, but he returned to his church after that. Since there's no evidence on what his deathbed beliefs were, it would be better to say nothing than risk misinforming the public. 130.91.183.25 19:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] deletion

"he was a brave idian who almost lead raids but was always caught before he could start his raids on the mexaicans and americans.He dislike resereions so him and his followers escaped a couple times like 5 to 4 times does not belong under Religion.

Geronimo was brave but the americans did not have a good record of keeping him from leaving the reservations they put him in. Reservations had no fences to keep people in or out, they were not like Forts. The Chiruchua Apache bands (Geronimo's group) were probably moved (but not caught) from different reservations the most and constantly tried to return to their homeland (big surprise). They had to take livestock and food from others (in 'raids') to survive when they were on the run or when they were starving while living on a reservation. --Rcollman 16:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biography Comments by Rcollman 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I apologize if my edits offend anyone. I tried to keep many of the words and ideas and don't believe I really added anything "new".

In the edit of this section, I relied upon his autobiography and then other books cited in the references. He was a very traditional Chiricahua Apache by his own account. I have tried to stay away from more obvious judgements and non-traditional romantic characterizations. Obviously, he had no love for those who killed or raided his people. And obviously the feeling was often mutual.

I called him a military leader because that is the best, shortest translation for a non-Apache reader. He said he was never a "chief". I did find lots of references by non-Chiricahua Apaches that state he was a cheif and/or a medicine man. While Geronimo uses the term "Mexicans", he clearly says that units of the Mexican Army killed his family and he initially sought revenge against them. Likewise, I prefer not to use "Apache" by itself, unless it refers to non-native americans (grin).

I confess, I put the biography section into more of a timeline (my cultural preference). I left and edited the description about his autobiography because I am a big fan of oral history and I like Turner's introduction. --Rcollman 15:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Application server called Geronimo

The mention of the Geronimo Application server should probably be on a disambiguation page and not linked from the main article. All in all any Indian chief, latin word or famous place probably has a product named after it. Its probably not relevant from the article.

I agree that the gernimo server doesn't deserve mention on this page under popular culture.

I also agree the geronimo server should not be on this page.

[edit] Geronimo vs. Geromino

Both these names are used in the article. Is there a reason for that?

[edit] Mexicans

...he hated all Mexicans for the rest of his life. His Mexican friends gave him the nickname...

This is confusing, to say the least :-) --Calair 00:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

How come The Mexicans massacred Geronimo's family in 1858. Mexico lost its territoru in 1848, and ten years later New Mexico was U.S.A land. It was hard for Mexican army to be inside U.S.A Territory.

Also, you said the name of Geronimo probably was given for the Spanish Fortress of Sain Jeronome. Well, first the spaniers don't speak french, so the proper name should be "Fuerte de San Geronimo", second, Spain abandoned those lands after the Mexican Independence in 1821.

Please check you data. - Agreed with your comments, except one. He was in Mexico - that fact is correct, your assumption about how the Apache lived is not correct :)

Geronimo and his family went with the rest of their band to a village in Mexico to trade. This was a centuries old custom. And it was dangerous for everyone. As in the U.S., while the Mexican (and Spainish before them) military's job was to protect the civilians, it did not answer to the leadership of a town (this point was often lost upon those who traded with the towns). It is hard to say if the town/village was part of the plot to ambush the band Geronimo was with. This would not be unheard of. Geronimo says the military did it in Mexico and he definately knew the border in later life.

I have no clue about how he got his non Apache name. Definately part of folklore. However, Genonimo does quote a Mexican officer using that name for him. French, I love it. Was looking for Mexican history links to Apache Wars. There was the Pastry Rebellion in 1830 somethings. I also doubt the Hapsburg influence extended to the troops and the timeframe is a little shakey. You forgot to add that St. J was the patron saint of translators, librarians and encyclopedists, so I think this must be part of WikiLore. I think I will let somebody else change it !

Very thoughtful reading and good comments.

[edit] Photographs of Skeleton Canyon

I went on a tour this morning of Skeleton Canyon, including the capture site of Geronimo, and took some photographs. The relevant one of the pile of stones marking the surrender site is available on Commons here if someone sees it fit to add to the page. --LoganCale (talk | contribs) 22:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hell(tori)

What does this mean in the first para of the biography section? It's been there since the first version of the article. Rojomoke 09:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Native American religion?

"Geronimo was raised with the traditional religious view of the Native Americans but by his own testimony this system left many questions unanswered." That suggests that Native Americans by and large held more or less the same religious view. I don't really know, but that seems very unlikely. 140.147.160.78 19:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

Ditto. In 1905-6 he sure sounded like a traditional "Apache". The "testimony" probably refers to a sentence in Geronimo-His Own Story, a chapter at the end called "Religion", where he is trying to understand the concept of afterlife on page 178. I smiled at the translation which came out "I have seen many bodies decay but no one has ever told me what part of man lives after death." He concludes that he can not understand the Christian viewpoint of this.

Funny that assumming he converted for the last 2 years of his life, so much space on this page is taken up by his Christian beliefs. My next kindly edit perhaps --Rcollman 16:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Geronimo was a Medicine Man. He is often referred to as a Leader and Chief due to his bravery and high respect from his peers.

My opinion, calling him a Medicine Man, or a Chief out of respect is fine. However, these are not Apache or Chiricahua terms. I would feel comfortable in calling a priest, monk, deacon, bishop and pope, as "Reverend", or even "Medicine Man" for that matter and mean it in a respectful manner. Likewise a president (political or corporate), mayor, public safety or military official can also (and sometimes are) be respectufully addressed as Chief but their roles in their society can be very different. --Rcollman 13:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Skull and Bones

In the paragraph about the theft of his remains the line "– including Prescott Bush, father and grandfather of Presidents George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush respectively – " is out of place, it seems to imply that the Bush family had something to do with the theft. Did they?