Talk:Germany

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Contents

[edit] Reasons for the West German "economic miracle"

I didn't think this discussion really belonged under the heading "Morgenthau Plan". "I would propose deleteing the sentence " The recovery occurred largely because of the previously forbidden currency reform of June 1948 and U.S. assistance through the Marshall Plan aid." I don't think it is possible to give one (or two) reasons for the "German Economic Miracle" in the space available here. The Marshall Plan no doubt helped. The dismantling policy (which some would regard as a remnant of the Morgenthau Plan) could also be credited with helping to modernize German industry. The currency reform doubtless played a major part, as did other policies of Ludwig Erhard (who is, surprisingly, not mentioned) in particular. One can, of course, find quotes to back up assertions that one particular thing was the principle cause. If you read the older Mundell, you may find that liberal (European use of the word) economic policies are stressed. If you read articles written 40 years ago (also by Mundell, if I recall correctly -- I can't provide cites at the moment) you will find a model that attributes the economic revival mainly to growth in the young working population (refugees, fugitives, reduction of concealed unemployment in agriculture, etc.). So, in my opinion, we should limit ourselves here to stating that there was an economic revival, popularly called an "economic miracle" (why use the German Wirtschaftswunder; I think "economic miracle" is established -- at least in the UK).--Boson 12:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Reply to this statement by Nellov5 (talk • contribs)

“ In contrast to the Marshall plan, the Morgenthau plan is deservedly forgotten in present-day Germany, as it had no lasting effect whatsoever. If anything, it should be mentioned in the History of Germany article. Therefore, removing the link to the Marshall plan subarticle makes no sense, particularly since it doesn't shorten the section as a whole either. I have therefore reverted the change. ”

Fussy logic used in that statement aside, please show, using sources, why the Marshall plan should take up space in the history of Germany section? I suspect that you are suffering under what appears to be a common German fallacy to believe in a fairly-tale myths about events in the late 40’s and early 50’s, for example by giving the Marshall plan far more credit than it deserves as regards German economic development.

“ To this day, a truly astonishing number of Germans (and almost all advanced high school students) have an idea what the Marshall Plan was, although their idea is very often very inaccurate. They think the Marshall Plan was aid given exclusively to West Germany; that it was given in the form of a vast amount of dollars (cash); that it was an outright gift from the U.S. Many Germans believe that the Marshall Plan was alone responsible for the economic miracle of the Fifties. And when scholars come along and explain that reality was far more complex, they are sceptical and disappointed. ”

Now, let me show you why it is a waste of space to include the Marshall plan:

Out of a total of $13 billion, Germany received only $1,4 billion, a large part of which was in the form of loans. To compare, the free aid received by other nations. France: $2,3 billion; Netherlands $1,2 billion; United Kingdom: $3,3 billion. Or why not compare it to what the Western Allies took out of Germany directly: Beginning immediately after the German surrender and continuing for the next two years the U.S. pursued a vigorous program to harvest all technological and scientific know-how as well as all patents in Germany. John Gimbel comes to the conclusion, in his book "Science Technology and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany", that the "intellectual reparations" taken by the U.S. and the UK amounted to close to $10,0 billion. Ref: Norman M. Naimark "The Russians in Germany" pg. 206. (Naimark refers to Gimbels book) So, with one hand they take almost $10,0 billion worth of know-how (halting all research in Germany for several years, since anything new that a German company invented also automatically was given to its U.S competitors whose representatives were free to take home to the U.S. all archives and documentation), while with the other "giving" $1,4 billion, a large part of which has to be repaid. (in 1953 it was decided that $1.1 billion was to be repaid to the U.S.)

Meanwhile, the U.S. and U.K. were still busy reducing the German economy in order to make sure that Germany would never have the strength to threaten the U.S. again. In occupied Germany the Morgenthau plan lived on in the "industrial disarmament" plans, designed to reduce German economic might and to destroy Germany's capability to wage war by complete or partial de-industrialisation and restrictions imposed on utilization of remaining production capacity. By 1950, after the virtual completion of the by the then much watered-out plans, equipment had been removed from 706 manufacturing plants in the west and steel production capacity had been reduced by 6,700,000 tons. Ref: Frederick H. Gareau "Morgenthau's Plan for Industrial Disarmament in Germany" The Western Political Quarterly, Vol. 14, No. 2 (Jun., 1961), pp. 517-534

(Must have been good for business, take away German industrial machinery and all German patents and other technical know-how, then give Germany loans that can only be spent in north america thereby keeping the U.S. economy going strong when Germany eventually tries to rebuild what has been taken away.)

Or why not see what David R. Henderson has to say about the Marshal plan in regards to the German economic recovery: From German Economic "Miracle"

“ This account has not mentioned the Marshall Plan. Can't the German revival be attributed mainly to that? The answer is no. The reason is simple: Marshall Plan aid to Germany was not that large. Cumulative aid from the Marshall Plan and other aid programs totaled only $2 billion through October 1954. Even in 1948 and 1949, when aid was at its peak, Marshall Plan aid was less than 5 percent of German national income. Other countries that received substantial Marshall Plan aid had lower growth than Germany.

Moreover, while Germany was receiving aid, it was also making reparations and restitution payments that were well over $1 billion. Finally, and most important, the Allies charged the Germans DM7.2 billion annually ($2.4 billion) for their costs of occupying Germany. (Of course, these occupation costs also meant that Germany did not need to pay for its own defense.)

 ”

Nellov5 (talk • contribs): If you want to keep reinserting the Marshall plan into the history section, provide some secondary source that motivates that inclusion! As far as I can tell, you have no legs to stand on at the moment.--Stor stark7 Talk 13:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


I'm not going to comment on Stor stark7s redundant elaborations about the Morgenthau plan (which already take up the biggest part of this page). The only reason why I posted under that heading was because I didn't want to start a new topic. This editor clearly has issues with America's post-war policy regarding Germany (which may be due in part to the widespread anti-Americanism in the Swedish educational system). It is telling that Wikipedia's German country page doesn't give any reasons for the "Wirtschaftswunder". They obviously understand that an overview of a country's history is not to include too many details. Stor stark7 should indulge in his obsession in the subarticles, but not here. "The recovery occurred largely because of the previously forbidden currency reform of June 1948.[12]". The new sentence suggests that the "economic miracle" occurred solely because of the currency reform, when clearly that is disputable at best. One economist's opinion is just that - an opinion, and no more valid than the article about the Marshall plan whose link was removed. I agree with Boson who states that we should limit ourselves here to stating that there was an economic revival. Which is why I have made the appropriate change. Nellov5 23:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I see you’re taking the easy way out by accepting the exit offered you by Boson. Wise choice. I have to say that your little fictive analysis of the supposed "anti-Americanism" of the Swedish educational system was rather cute. Any source to back it up, or just a figment of your imagination purveyed as fact? I also note that you have trouble with the difference between the English words "largely" and "solely". As to one economists opinion, sourced opinion I might add, that is in fact quite a lot more valid than your inclusion of the Marshall plan without any source at all. As to my alleged "issues with America's post-war policy regarding Germany", I’m only interested in getting an as accurate and sourced picture presented as possible. If some peoples "un-sourced" illusions get broken by it, to bad. It is truly sad that so many people with such strong opinions on this topic seem to have read absolutely no literature about it, and yet persist in purveying their uninformed opinions as facts. Ever wondered why, more than two years after the cease fire in Europe, George Marshall started lobbying for a "European recovery program"? Why not read a quote by Ray Salvatore Jennings [1]
"The rest of Europe, previously dependent on the industrial base of pre-war Germany, continued its listless recovery. This vulnerability of Europe, the destitution of the German public, and continued concern over Soviet intentions moved the Joint Chiefs of Staff to join Clay in lobbying Truman to change course. By winter, Truman had sacked Secretary of State James Byrnes, replacing him with General George Marshall. By the summer of 1947, Marshall had successfully made the argument that JCS 1067 must be rescinded on "national security grounds" and replaced by JCS 1779."
Or to quote Vladimir Petrovs conclusion on the effects of U.S. policy in Germany: "The victorious Allies … delayed by several years the economic reconstruction of the war torn continent, a reconstruction which subsequently cost the US billions of dollars." Or why not read a concise explanation of the European state of affairs and Germany’s role in it in mid 1947 from the time in question, when at least the Americans finally seemed to have "seen the light". "Pas de Pagaille!", Time magazine--Stor stark7 Talk 01:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cencorship

Is there anything in this about the cencorship of violent video games?

Most of the censorship in germany you think of is really just some form of youth protection where advertising and selling of violent media to minors is prohibited. Adults can still buy and play the games, although it might be hard to find a shop selling them. I don't know if you want to call this censorship or not, but it it has very little impact on german society. There is also some full scale censorship in connection with the nazi heritage, the most prominent example is that selling copies of "Mein Kampf" is prohibited in germany.

AFAIK it's allowed to sell antiquarian versions of Mein Kampf.--217.85.95.65 20:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf#Current_availability http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Germany The German censorship is more than just youth protection, and it has impact on the German society (sometimes trange impacts, there was cases lately where people were tried because they had anti-nazi-symbols.

The most censorship in germany will do the FSK (Movies) and USK (entertainment / computer). This are organisation of the movie and entertainment industry to control publication before going out. Agreement: The goverment don't make laws for censorship while we censoship our self. The appeal for crime or violence also agitation for hate isn't allowed in german media. marian (194.114.62.66 12:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Not satisfied with the map

I'm not very happy with the CIA map of Germany used in this article. For instance, why does it show the river Danube but not the Rhine which is at least as important to Germany in economics and history, probably even more important? Why does it show the rather small city of Emden in the northwest corner of the country but no city at all in the southwest corner - where Freiburg im Breisgau would be located, a city four times as large as Emden and historically very important? I have nothing against Emden, but that's an inconsistency a map in a featured article shouldn't exhibit in my opinion. Gestumblindi 19:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, the reason is obvious: we don't have a better one (with the needed rights to free use) Lars T. 23:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I hope there are some people here who could draw a better one (I can't, don't have such skills) :-) Gestumblindi 00:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm not too fond of the CIA maps myself.. Brutannica 07:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics Section Needs Changing

Minor little edit needs to be made. It says the German population is about 19% of foreign descent or at elast partially, when in fact the sources that were linked to back this statement up place the number as being somewheres along the lines of 8-9%, natural births of immigrants included. This should probably be changed.

CorneliusStump 08:29, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

can anyone tell me how has germany benefitted since it became a member of the european union and how germany has beneffited the european union since it became a memberSdarcy 17:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infrastructure and Transportation needed!

There is yet no section about the 2 topics. Lear 21 02:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

They were taken out during clean-up Lars T. 15:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a standard section within country articles and should be reintroduced. Lear 21 15:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I actually think that a mention of Germany's world re-known Autobahn and high-speed trains would definitely be worth a little section. Signaturebrendel 17:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
The Transport section was removed after the discussion about the featured article status because it is not standard in FA articles. Lars T. 22:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

@Lars T.:Which country-FA-article is meant, when it´s said to be not standard? All comparable industrialized country articles include Infrastructure and Transportation content. Especially Germany is well known for it´s dense mobility net. It is rather a question of relevance and priority. And in this case Hamburg harbour, Frankfurt Airport, Autobahn, ICE, Transrapid are almost crucial for the understanding of Germany. Lear 21 22:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

"Do you believe that other sections such as transport, which do not appear on other FA national articles." There isn't much more — you should ask User:TSO1D, he handled the whole FA process including editing almost on his own. Lars T. 19:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

he? Lear 21 23:01, 19 March 2007 (UTC) Germany has benifited from jopining the EU because now it has established itself as one of the strongest countries in Europe and the world. It is also getting many natural resources from other countries part of the EU that it does no have. I hope this helps you. Peace out. 21 March, 2007

[edit] Pronunciation

[ˈbʊndəsrepubliːk ˈdɔʏtʃlant] is wrong, it should be something like this: [ˈbʊndəsrepuˌblɪk ˈdɔʏtʃlant]—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.135.88.205 (talk • contribs) 2007-03-21.

my bad i was talking to the article above me 21, MArch, 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.197.242.126 (talk • contribs) 2007-03-22.

I think [repuˈblɪk] is getting more common, but I believe it is still regional, with [repuˈbli:k] being preferred.
Duden Aussprachewörterbuch has:
  • ˈbʊndəs
  • repuˈbliːk
  • ˈdɔytʃlant ( with tie bars linking ɔy and tʃ )
So I would change the pronunciation to [ˈbʊndəsrepuˌb liːk ˈdɔ͜yt͜ʃlant] --
if I could get both tie bars to work properly.
--Boson 21:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Support Germany-article for Today's featured article !

Please comment at Today's featured article for this proposal. Lear 21 14:33, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures in Third Reich section

Someone replaced the previous picture of German soldiers at the Polish border with a picture of a bombed-out Potsdamer Platz from the postwar period. I think we should stick to pictures depicting events from the period in question. I don't mind another picture, but it should at least be from the Third Reich, and not showing the aftermaths of the war (which should be in the postwar section). I have therefore restored the original image.

Nellov5 03:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

WW 2 is inevitably connected to Third Reich. The Potsdamer Platz aftermath image is taken in 1945 and is part of WW2 results caused by Third Reich. Lear 21 12:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the caption clearly reads "Berlin in ruins AFTER WW2"! Thus the photo was taken during the postwar period, even if the destruction resulted from the war. I will revert to the previous image until a photo taken during the war is put up. Nellov5 19:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Oooh you want to nitpick? That photo was taken 1945 July 9, over a month before WW2 ended (even if only in the Pacific). Lars T. 20:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Nitpicking correct. Lear 21 23:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The Potsdamer Platz pic should stay-it shoulds the devastating destruction caused WWII. Signaturebrendel 23:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 10 million dead?

the article says germany suffered 10 million dead in WWII, the highest I had ever heard was about 5 million. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JohnHistory (talk • contribs) 05:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

World War II casualties, apparently supported by citations, gives a gigure of 7.5 million.--Boson 22:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Add to that the 2 million who died during the Expulsion of Germans after World War II and the thousands that died of malnutrition after the war. Lars T. 14:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The actual quote from the article (my emphasis): "The war resulted in the death of several million German soldiers and civilians, in total nearly ten million". Lars T. 14:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Allemagne"

Why does "Allemagne" redirect here with no explanation or mention of the term in the article?--24.22.147.202 00:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

No idea why there needs to be a redirect, but it's simply French for Germany, and so does not need mentioning in the article. Lexicon (talk) 04:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Semi-Protection

A semiprotection for the article Germany would be much appreciated. Several unregistered users did their ongoing nonsense the last days. The upcoming appearance as Today´s FA - article on the Main Page (07.04.) will probably provoke more of it. 7 day- protection should be fine. Thanks in advance and all the best Lear 21 11:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My screw-up

Due to my recent edit, the article uses the "U.S.–German Economic Relations Factsheet" reference twice. However, I didn't and still don't know how to do that fancy thing where a reference that is used more than once is given the same footnote number. So now, ref. 22 and 23 are the same. I am very sorry for that and would be very grateful to the person who either fixes it or tells me how I can fix it (although I have to go offline now, and wouldn't be able to do it while the article is featured on the main page). Blur4760 00:34, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Congrats!!!

Congratulations to all who made one of my favorites pages today featured article. Just watch out for vandalism, cuz it become pretty bad when the article is on the main page and sadly featured articles aren´t protected. Auf Wiedersehen!!! --ometzit<col> 00:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes great work, it 's nice to have important core topics like this high quality, really helps the credibility of the project. Trevor GH5 06:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
WOOOOOOH!!! I'm a German myself, and it's extremely exciting to see this on the Main Page finally. Time to play some German patriotic songs...

Yeah, I'll bet it's gotten lots of Nazi references from vandals by now. Brutannica 07:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Cultural Influence

Would anyone like to work together to add on both this article and the German Culture article on the effects of Hermann Hesse's works on western youth culture? If you go to any school in the United States, Canada, or Great Brittan and you will hear of his works among those who are choosing the slackers way through school, and it has been so for some time. Steppenwolf has also influenced the band of the same name, of which have been extremely successful musically, and applying Hesse's ideas to their own work. --Taken By Robots 04:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be a great idea- Hesse has a profound impact on me as a young man! Siddhartha and Demian were profoundly influential for me! Perhaps even a shout out to Hesse would start that and could be added to...! Alex Jackl 12:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I just added a reference to Hesse. (It got wiped out but I think accidentally by editors dealing with the vandalism)Alex Jackl 13:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I also added a reference to Heidegger due to his strong influence on philosophy overall. Despite the political controversies around him I doubt scholar's would question his influence on modern philosophy or that he was one of Germany's great thinkers.... Alex Jackl 13:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I find this irrelevant to the article (Hesse). What exactly does "those who are choosing the slackers [sic] way through school" mean? That is subjective to the point of being derogatory. I don't see how a "slacker" could find any inspiration in a novel like The Glass Bead Game. Furthermore, there are some German authors that probably deserve mention before Hesse, such as Nobel laureates Grass, Boll and especially Thomas Mann. Timocrates 13:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I 100% agree that Boll, Gunter Grass and Thomas Mann should be mentioned. I just don't think it is "instead of " Hesse. Let's add them! I think Germany's literary contributions are a critical part of its story! I don't get the slacker thing either, but it doesn't change Hesse's prominence.Alex Jackl 13:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Slavs?

In this edit, Slavs are removed from the list of peoples persecuted by the Third Reich regime, with the reason that it "implies that Slavs were persecuted to the same extent as Jews", while leaving every other group that also suffered to some extent, though I'd have thought all not to the same level as Jews, and probably in most cases, not even as much as Slavs. I didn't change it back, as there may be reasoning either way, and I'm not entirely sure if what I'm saying is right, but my personal opinion is that they either didn't read it properly, which is probably most likely, or they have some personal bias for Jews, or against Slavs. --86.130.29.170 10:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

I restored the Slavic peoples reference not because I have a strong opinion about it or any statistics either way but that the removal seemed somewhat arbitrary- there are many races/cultures/types of people listed on the list there of people who were persecuted and killed by the Third Reich. Who knows how many of each and what order of precedence. Frankly, even if I knew, I wouldn't add that information- I think that that is too much detail for a general article like this. If someone feels strongly about the Slav/no-Slav deal let's talk about it on the talk page. I think given the article's public prominence right now it is even more important that we be conservative in our editing. Danke!! Alex Jackl 12:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Austria and the Anschluss?

I can't believe this wasn't mentioned in the post-Weimar/pre-WWII section. BipolarBear 15:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

History sections of country articles are meant to provide an overview of a specific period in a country's history, thus only covering key events. The section in question is called "The Third Reich", the article doesn't contain a separate "post-Weimar" or "pre-WII" section. It was the invasion of Poland that triggered WWII, not the "Anschluss". The sub-articles (WWII, Nazi Germany, etc.) are the place to look for regarding a complete list of the Third Reich's conquests - before or during the war.

Nellov5 21:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Great Power"

Germany was classified as a "great power" in 1871-1918 — when the term was widely used to describe France, Germany, Britain, Russia, the U.S. and, arguably Italy and Austria-Hungary. I suppose Germany was again briefly a "great power" during the Nazi nightmare, but I don't believe it's applicable to today's Germany in the context of present-day politics. Very few contemporary Germans would choose to describe their country as a Grossmacht, as their grandparents or great-grandparents would have.

Today, the "great powers" (the term is no longer widely used) are the U.S., Russia, China and, arguably, the U.K. Sca 15:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

See article on great power. It´s a standard term in Wikipedia country articles. Lear 21 15:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I saw it, and disagree with what it says. The term "great power" is outmoded, archaic — and basically has been since the end of WWII. Sca 15:52, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

That´s why it is coined 'modern'. Lear 21 16:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Sca, "great power" is subjective and should not be used in country article intro's. Perhap's "The Federal Republic of Germany, with Europe's largest economy, is an economic power" would be better. --A.Garnet 17:13, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Although I understand the POV sound of the term, I actually disagree. The World Wars wrecked Germany and it's not what it once was, sure, but it's still Europe's largest economy, the world's third largest, and one of the three main powers in the EU. Plus there's a chance at a permanent UN Security Council seat (maybe??). I think it deserves the status, and I don't think the term is outdated, either, just not used as much. ("Great powers" have existed throughout history, really, as have superpowers in my opinion.) Brutannica 07:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sonderweg?

Shouldn't there at least be an obvious link to the Sonderweg page considering that it is considered crucial by many historians (refer to actual article for more info) to understanding the influence that germany has undeniably had on western history in the 20th century? its probably to big to have a large explanation in this article, but i still think that it should be mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Movingpictures100@hotmail.com (talk • contribs) 16:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] What is the oldest text in German Language?

If somebody point to the internet high resolution scans - thanks . —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.13.244.169 (talk) 22:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Is Mozart "German" ?

Why is Mozart listed as an example of German composer ? He was Austrian. I would suggest Johannes Brahms as the third example (to complete the " 3 B's" of music ) Wentu Wentu 22:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

This is an old question, but Mozart indeed was a German. He was born in the Archbishopric of Salzburg, which then was a part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. His father was from Augsburg in Bavaria. And not least: Mozart considered himself a German composer. --Happolati 23:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Most likely because he was born in the Archbishopric of Salzburg, a part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation but not of Austria, and spent most of his time in Vienna, which was then part of the Archduchy of Austria, again a part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Austria did not secede from the rest of Germany until the Austro-Prussian War of 1866. Interestingly enough, that war is also known as the German-Prussian war in Austria and Germany, and the "German" in that designation refers to Austria. The point being: it is nonsense to speak of Austria as an entity seperate from Germany for any time at least before 1866, if not 1945 (You may want to look into the article "German Austria" regarding that last date). While it may be a valid question, I cannot help but think of the end of the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus every time someone says "Mozart was Austrian, not German". Blur4760 23:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Then what do you make of Finnish composer Jean Sibelius? He was born in what was part of the Russian Empire at the time, the Grand Duchy of Finland. Does that make him a Russian composer? Calling Mozart a German composer seems a bit of a stretch, IMO. Nellov5 23:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Finns were still an ethnic group apart from Russians during that time. The concept of an Austrian ethnicity independent of a larger German nation did not exist during Mozart's lifetime, because Austria was never an entitity disconnected from a bigger Germany until they were forced to withdraw from the German confederation after 1866. They were always part of the HRE and always a part of the German confederation. Austria proper during Mozart's lifetime was as German as Bavaria or Brandenburg, or whatever part of the Kingdom of Germany (a constitutent part of the HRE) you want to pick populated by German-speaking people. (By the way, Austria was part of the Kingdom of Germany). The series of events that lead to Austria being no longer a part of Germany cannot be identified before the end of the HRE. On what basis would you claim that the German-speaking parts of the Habsburg dominion that were both within the HRE and the Kingdom of Germany (as opposed to German-speaking parts of Bohemia) were any different than the German-speaking parts of Brandenburg-Prussia that were within the HRE and Germany? Blur4760 00:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
PS: If you can read German, read this. While I am unsure about whether Austrians form a people apart of the Germans nowadays and while there may be more scholarly essays about the question, it is an illuminating article on how German Austria considered itself to be before 1945. Blur4760 00:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
PPS: I withdraw the implication that Bohemia was outside the titular jurisdiction of the Kingdom of Germany. The three titular kingdoms of the HRE were Germany, Italy and Burgundy, and in fact, during Mozart's lifetime almost the entire empire seems to have been constituted by the Kingdom of Germany. Doesn't change the fact though that Austria was part of said kingdom. Blur4760 01:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It all comes down to the German concept of equating ethniticity with nationality. A concept that is not used or accepted in other countries such as France or Great Britain. By this definition, Hungary's national composer Franz Liszt wouldn't be Hungarian because he was born in the Habsburg empire, was of German ethniticity, and never even learned how to speak Hungarian fluently. Yet he considered himself a Hungarian. Likewise, Finland's national composer Jean Sibelius wouldn't be Finnish, since he was born into a Swedish-speaking family that belonged to that other ethnic group called "Finland Swedes". The Fins and the Swedes are completely different ethnic groups and their languages have nothing in common. I therefore find this German concept to be quite outdated and a relic of the 19th century. WIKIPEDIA's country article about Austria states that Beethoven spent most of his life in Vienna, yet he is not called an Austrian composer (as opposed to the other names mentioned there). Everyone knows that he was born in Bonn, while Mozart was born in Salzburg. The difference is one of geography - seen from today's perspective - and not of ethniticity. Regardless of redrawn borders of the past. (Nellov5 02:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)).

I completely- and respectfully- disagree! I think the problem is the OPPOSITE one- we try to interpret the past form the "redrawn borders of the" PRESENT. We have to look at any historical figure or event in the context it was happening in. In Mozart's time he was German - period. No question at all. Salzburg was not an Austrian city - it was a German city. That is why it is a little foolish to do that- otherwise do you say that a Mayan in 900 was a citizen of Mexico? No - they were part of the Mayan Empire. Saying anything else makes no sense. Alex Jackl 05:21, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Seems this is a contentious issue. To add to the confusion, "A spokeswoman from the Austrian embassy in London told BBC News Online said that Mozart was neither German or Austrian as he came from Salzburg when it was its own city state". Raymond Arritt 05:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it possible that this state fell under the protection of the HRE, though? There were many states that existed like that at the time. I personally think he should be called a German composer. If I were to invent the time machine and 150 years from now the east and west US split, would I in 300 years be called an "Eastian inventor?" (just to make up some ridiculous term for what the Eastern US might be called under the newly formed robot dictatorship ;-)). If I'm not mistaken, this is the issue at hand. If he considered himself a German composer, that is the most important thing. JHMM13 05:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

To understand the german-austrian development it is better to read Kleindeutsche Lösung. That Austria is not "german" today has a couple of reasons. Which historic person is german or from Germany was also discussed in the de.wikipedia. One result was, that the term Deutschland or Teutschland (Germany) has been used since the 16th century. This term included Austria in the 18th century. But I think it is acceptable not to state austrian persons of history as germans, due to the independence of Austria in presence. Geo-Loge 09:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

What about all the Habsburg emperors of the HRE and Kings of Germany? Would you say they were not German, even though they were Kings of Germany and Empererors of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, only because Austria is an independent country today? Blur4760 09:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Is Augustus II the Strong polish due to he was King of Poland? I do not think so. Geo-Loge 10:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
With the same argument you can say, that the Queen is german due to the Windsors are the renamed german House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. It is difficult to define nationality of monarchs by their functions and places of ruling. Geo-Loge 10:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

@Nellov5: Well, for starters I believe Liszt was not born in the HRE or what was considered to be Germany at that time, because the Burgenland belonged to Hungary. Secondly, I wonder if any one would consider Agrippina the Younger to be German. She was born in Cologne afterall. What about Charlemagne? Is he German? I would say no, because when he was born, there were no German people. Likewise, there was no Austrian nation seperate from Germany during Mozart's lifetime. Thus, I don't think my argument can be boiled down to "equating ethniticity with nationality". It comes down to using todays categories of nationality (Austrian vs German) that make no sense in a past that simply didn't make any difference between the two. PS: I am not saying Mozart was not Austrian. Blur4760 09:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

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