Talk:Germanos Karavangelis
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I strongly request (and maybe I would do myself) a cleanup of this article for the following reasons:
1. QUOTE:
(He) was undoubtedly one of the main coordinators of the freedom of Macedonia from the Turks (end of the quote)
It is an absolute distortion of the historical facts.
It is a known fact and Karavangelis HIMSELF tells clearly and undoubtetly in his own autobiographical book "The Macedonian struggle"(I think firstly published in 1928) that he NEVER fought the Turkish authorities. Oncontrary (as he says in his OWN above mentioned book) he often gladly COLLABORATED with the Turkish authorities against their common enemy: the armed groups called "Komiti" organized by the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization for liberating Macedonia from the Turkish yoke (see: VMRO) during the years of the Greek Struggle for Macedonia
2. Also, the article is biased (in favor of the greek nationalist point of view).
QUOTE:
With great diplomacy and bravery (he was only 34 years old when made bishop)
Oncontrary, Karavangelis says openly in his own above mentioned book that: bribery, manipulation, assasinations, betrayal, Divide et impera etc. were among his offtenly used methods.
3. Another example of the biased (pro-greek nationalistic) views expressed by the author of the article is the following
QUOTE:
he organized militias out of determined Greek(s) and boosted the morale of the dejected Patriarchists.
Karavangelis in his own book says openly that recruiting ordinary bandits and criminals for his armed gangs was also a common practise (beside people who really beleived in his cause and who would join him volunatrilly or who would be manipulated to do so).
4. Also, the Greeks should finally decide what's the correct spelling of this person's name in english translitteration: Germanos or Yermanos, Karavangelis or Karavaggelis or Karavagelis, as all the versions circulatte around the internet, in books etc. and it confuses the readers and internet surfers looking for info.
I tried to be as unbiased as possible, I quoted only the book written by the person in question which can always be verified expecially by people interested in the subject, so in the name of objectivity I hope this will not be deleted.
--Vbb-sk-mk 01:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Update finished
I tried to be as unbiased as possible, I included what the person in question wrote in his own autobiography (memoirs) and I included a source which can be verified. --Vbb-sk-mk 04:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Bulgarian poet Ivan Vazov against Karavangelis
Владиката Каравангелис
Каравангелис*, пастирът Христови,
яви се весел при пашата пак:
- Паша ефенди! Днес комити нови
открих: готви тъмници и окови.
Бог нек закриля царя наши драг!
- Владико, аферим на теб и слава.
Слуга си верен на султана, брава!
II
Каравангелис, верният слуга
на падишаха, пак е при пашата:
- Ефенди, радост пълни ми душата:
комити други аз открих сега.
Против исляма дигаха раята!
- Фала и чест на тебе, баш кишиш**.
Султана много ще задоволиш!
III
Каравангелис, честният владика,
яви се пак и с тържествующ глас:
- Паша ефенди, радостен извика,
готви бесилки: трийсет йощ клетнйка,
душмани царски, днес подуших аз!
- Брилянтен орден в знак на благодарност
султанът готви зарад твойта вярност.
IV
Каравангелис пак се появи:
- Паша ефенди, веч съмненье няма:
комити с пушки крият се във храма.
Нек паднат тозчас техните глави
под славний ятаган на Дин-Исляма!
Кога излезе черний грък, пашата, блед,
плюна по него и пошушна: пис миллет***!
София, 8 януари 1904 г.
———————————————
- * Гръцки владика в Македония днес, прочут по мръсните си шпионства и предателства спрямо въстаниците.
- ** Главен духовник.
- *** Мръсен народ.
Written in Sofia on 8 January 1904. Source (in Bulgarian).
Jackanapes 17:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Were are the evidence about Karavangelis?
Please provide the information you mention about karavangelis! Were in his book he mention all that you say?Which page please and what are his exact words! I was unable to find any from the information you mention! I would like to see some clear references and not quotes from Lithoksoou book please! From were is the reference that "He is personally responsible[1] for various crimes[1] committed against the local population in Macedonia including, among other things his personal involement[1] in the planning and organization of the massacre in the village of Zagorichani (later renamed Vasilyas) executed by the greek armed groups on the 25th of March 1905." What are the sources that back up such a claim? (Seleukosa 23:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC) ) And again were exactly Karavangelis mentions that he organized the Greek guerilla forces from “Greek oficers, and then volunteers brought from Crete, Peloponnese and other parts of Greece, then various criminals(!!!!!) as well as few(notice the term “few”!) recruited locals such as the chieftain Vangel (Vangelis Strebreniotis) from the village of Strebreno (now Asprogia) and Kote Hristov (Kotas Hristos), a renegade from IMRO from the village of Rulya (later renamed by the Greek authorities as Kotas in his honor.” (Notice please the order of the troops!! First Greek officers, then volunteers from Greece but not Greek-Macedonians, then criminals and finally few locals!!!!) Provide references that suggest that this was the case! Please specify the exact page of the book were I can find the exact claim! Again I don’t want quotes from Lithoksoou book! I want quotes from the original book of Karavangelis! (Seleukosa 23:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC))
- what kind of question is that Seleukosa? the information is provided by karavagelis himself.his book is available in every bookstore and library in greece, if you want to read it of course (seems you dont).like it or not he cooperated with the turkish army all the time,beside volunteers from southern greece he was recruiting criminals, albanians, turks and whatnot.indeed he mentions only few recruited locals,you have already listed their names (2-3 important persons - commanders).and worst of all he admits in his memoirs that he made a list of persons to be killed / spared in the massacre in the village of Zagorichani. he was personally responsible for that as he was involved in the organisation of that masacre. but who am i talking to anyway. wikipedia, what a joke. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nababati (talk • contribs) 03:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
