Talk:Germanic Europe

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Contents 1 Ireland 2 Regions 3 Alsace-Moselle ? 4 Talk:English_language#The_English_people_and_language_are_Romance

[edit] Ireland

Why is Ireland included in Germanic Europe? Irish people are Celtic in ancestry, and therefore should not be included in this grouping at all. Ronline ✉ 10:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Very simple, the concept "germanic Europe" says that every country (in Europe) with a Germanic language as a national one is part of it.Ireland has English, a Germanic language.Of course this doesn't mean they're "ethnicly germanic" if such a thing still exists in the 21th century... Sandertje 16:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the definition of Germanic Europe is a cultural one - which countries in Europe speak Germanic languages and are culturally "Germanic peoples". This includes the UK (specifically England), as well as Scandinavia, Germany, Austria, the Netherlands and Flanders, etc. Just because Ireland has English as an official language doesn't make it part of Germanic Europe. Malta also has English as an official language, but that doesn't make it part of "Germanic Europe". This definition should be more about heritage and culture than purely linguistics (of course, language is a good indicator of cultural ancestry, but the "national" language of Ireland is Irish, not English). And what strikes me as very very odd with the map is why Ireland is green, while Finland and Belgium is blue. In Finland, Swedish and Finnish are equal in status, but in Ireland, English is the "second official language" as specified by the Constitution. Ronline ✉ 06:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

So? That's got nothing to do with the definition.Besides that it's spoken by 100,000 to 2 million people, and English still is an official language.

But I don't see why Ireland shouldn't be in the Celtic Europe, you just have to make a small note and link to that article...

Sandertje 15:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, English is an official language, but that in itself doesn't change things. Maltese has English as an official language. In fact, in Malta English is equal with Maltese (which isn't the case in Ireland). Should Malta be drawn green on the map then? I don't see the difference, if we're looking at it in purely lingustic terms, which we shouldn't. Secondly, why is Ireland green when Finland is blue? Finland is blue because one of its official languages - Swedish - is Germanic. Ireland is the same case - Irish is official, but so is English, a Germanic language. But trying to imply from the map that English is the national language of Ireland is a bit chauvinistic, IMO. Ronline ✉ 06:00, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

How many Irishmen and women speak English and how many of them speak Irish? English is a national languages of Ireland.

And, how can I be chauvinistic about English? It's not even spoken where I live...

Sandertje 13:54, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't saying that you were chauvinistic, just that the map is a bit chauvinistic. More importantly, however, it's important to understand that English is not the national language of Ireland. In the Constitution, Irish is mentioned as the first official language and national language of Ireland. English is the second official language. This is different even to Finland, for example, where Finnish and Swedish are actually equal in status (yet Finland is blue on the map and Ireland is not). Yes, English is spoken by more people, while Irish is only really used as a first language in the Gaeltacht, but since we're looking here at cultural divisions, Ireland should not be part of Germanic Europe just because English is used there as a medium of exchange. Languages should be used to determine cultural heritage, and therefore the situation is more complex than just looking at a list and saying "this country has English as an official language. Hence, it is Germanic". Under the definition, Malta should also be included, as I have said. The caption of the map says "Green: Countries where a Germanic language is the national language". English is not the national language of Ireland. It is not even a national language. Ronline ✉ 06:14, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The alter the map, and give a false impression that the entire island speaks Irish.I don't care. Sandertje 14:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

But by leaving the map the way it is, we give a false impression that English is the only official language and that the whole island is Germanic in culture! Please understand this! I'll alter the map to make Ireland in blue. Thanks, Ronline ✉ 00:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Legal definitions are about politics. In linguistics though, a national language is the one that is spoken by the majority of the population of a country. In the case of Ireland, that is obviously English (only a small minority speaks Gaelic as first language). 161.24.19.82 12:30, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't embarrass yourself. Linguistics does not, and cannot determine the status of a national language. Designating a national language is always a political decision. QuartierLatin1968 19:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand ;-)

--Sandertje 00:39, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

What is the most spoken language in Ireland, English or Irish ? I don't know this country, but I'm not sure that everybody speaks Iraish in the streets of Dubblin ? Does everyone can understand Irish ?

--Fabb leb 19:17, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regions

First, I heartily agree with Ronline's take on the Irish situation, and I'm very pleased he stuck with his guns! I'm wondering whether this map could not be improved by adding a regional dimension, so that, for example, South Tyrol is shown as being Germanic-speaking, and Wallonia is not. I don't think the number of regions so affected would be large, and I would volunteer to make the changes myself, unless others think it would be a bad idea. QuartierLatin1968 22:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea. At the moment, Belgium is shown blue, but I think it would be more accurate to show Wallonia as grey and Flanders as green, and perhaps Brussels-Region as blue. Ronline ✉ 08:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alsace-Moselle ?

I agree that in Alsace, French Flanders and parts of Lorraine there is a history and tradition of Germanic origin, but including it at the same level with countries such as Germany or Netherland is purely wrong. It gives the wrong idea that everybody in Alsace, Lorraine or Flanders live in a germanic society; The reality is that the daily life (shops, offices, etc) is made only in French, and the huge majority of the population use only French, and don't speak at all any germanic language. Assuming that "ethnically" (if such a thing exist) the people of those region would be "germanic", is even more wrong. It is forgetting that those regions were home of thousands of Italians, Portuguese, Italians and Frenchs of other regions since the 19th century wich melted together, and more recently people from north Africa or black Africa. The "germanic" thing in those regions is more a folkloric/historical souvenir thing than a daily reality.

--Fabb leb 19:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Fabb leb, do you honestly believe people in the Netherlands or Germany wake up every morning thinking "I live in a Germanic culture" ?

Apart from that culture and language are things that are taught to you, you're not born with them. Rex Germanus Tesi samanunga is edele unde scona 19:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:English_language#The_English_people_and_language_are_Romance

Rhode Islander 22:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)