Talk:German language

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  1. January 2003 – September 2006
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Contents

[edit] "Spoken in [...]"

Currently the infobox of the German language says the following: "Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Belgium, Italy, France, Luxembourg, Argentina, Brazil, Netherlands, Czech Republic, Denmark, Namibia, South Africa, Mexico, Canada, USA and 35 other countries.".

I think we should edit this and go with the way the English language article does it. ie listing the countries where it is official, not dying and not a minority language + "and other countries".

So that would mean: "Austria, - Belgium (official, but also minority) -, Germany, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Switzerland and other countries."

Are there any objections? Rex 14:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I have no objections, but if you do it I will make the same changes to the Dutch language article, as well as every other European language article which does the same thing. Ameise -- chat 14:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't care if you did that. Seems kind of fair. (Sorry to disappoint you, Mike.) Rex 14:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Why purge valuable information? Ulritz 16:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Because infoboxes should be kept short. I'd say any language's infobox should only list the countries where the language in question really predominates (in this case, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, and Luxembourg, plus maybe Belgium because of having official status there) with an "and other countries" if necessary, while more detail can be given in the body of the text. —Angr 17:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I am a bit taken back by this whole Luxembourg as a German speaking language bit. If you define Dutch as an independant language, so is Luxembourgish. There are so many non-german words used in Luxembourgish and time has made it develop in its very own way. It may have been a german dialect once but that was way back in the days of Low German. By the way, Luxembourg is officially a French speaking country and all of the people in Luxembourg are speaking French, whereas Luxembourgish is only used by a very small majority. Besides, there are strong political feelings involved in making us a german-speaking country. No real Luxembourger will accept that.

Well, you're sure you're from Luxembourg? That does not sound like the Luxembourg I know... German IS official language (with French and Luxembourgish), additionally Luxembourgish is the national language. Moreover, in contrast to Dutch, Luxembourgish cannot be considered a fully independent language. French might be a prefered language of the government (dating back to the code civil), which is why most street signs are French, but German on the other hand has a stronger presence throughout the print media, the church, the elementary and professional schools and others. I've visited Luxembourg numerous times and every single time I realised that this small country is much larger concerning lagnuages and is truly trilingual. The citizens are randomly mixing German, French and Luxembourgish, even within one single newspaper, shop window or discussion and nearly everbody is able to speak all three of them more or less fluently. At last, I want to add, that the German dialects of Baden, South Tyrol, Holstein etc. all feature "non-german words" in their specific vocabularies, which, however, does not render them "less German". --BlueMars 23:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear anonymous, you wrote "By the way, Luxembourg is officially a French speaking country and all of the people in Luxembourg are speaking French, whereas Luxembourgish is only used by a very small majority."
Now, is it possible that somewhere on this globe there is (hidden away in some secret corner) a second country that is also called Luxemburg/Luxembourg/Letzebuerg? The Luxemburg I know has the official languages French, German and Luxemburgish (in alphabetical order) and practically all natives of Luxemburg speak Luxemburgish as their first language. Many Luxemburgers have a limited knowledge of French and High German (Standard German). When speaking German (Standard German) the very close relationship between Luxemburgish and German gives them the advantage of being ablet to express themselves effortlessly, though not necessarily always correctly. In the worst case, a word-to-word translation of Luxemburgish into Standard German will do.
Furthermore, the number of French loanwords in Luxemburgish is not so high as to hamper mutual intelligibility with Standard German. Many of those loanwords exist in German as well, though most of them are obsolete or dialectal.Unoffensive text or character 13:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Well yes, I am a native "Letzeburger". There is, however, a very very large minority of foreigners living in Luxembourg, thankfully so, that do not speak Luxemburgish at all. The problem most of us DO have with being assembled to German (again) lies very much deeper, though.
As for being trilingual, it has its drawbacks, too. Most of the Luxembourgers are not fluent in German (as they do a literal translation from their native language most of the time) and their French is not really perfect, either. As for being a French speaking country, we belong officially to the "pays francophones" and you won't be able to manage for long in Luxembourg without French (try to buy something in Luxemburgish or German and you know what I mean)
Sorry for being anonymous in my first posting. It was largely an emotional reaction more than any logical reasoning. I made my studies at a university in Austria, so I might be more friendly toward German as a language than most of the "Letzeburgers".
Blue Mars, why do you say: "Moreover, in contrast to Dutch, Luxembourgish cannot be considered a fully independent language." Now this is something someone has to explain. I am not sure about the "mutual intelligibility" between German and Luxemburgish either. I guess you may be right for the regions located geographically near our country, but other Germans won't understand a word of what we are talking about. Exactly the same is true for Dutch :). Luxembourgish is a very independant language with it's own literature, folk songs, poetry and everything else you may expect in a language.Mtravellerh 23:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thats kind of a modern problem, 100 years ago most Luxemburgians, Austrians, Bohemians, Swiss and many other people (sometimes even Dutch and Yiddsih people) considerd themselves "Deutsch" because they spoke a German language. German is not only standard (High) German but a whole system of Dialects which form a dialect-continuum reaching from Vienna to Amsterdam. Nowadays, after Bismark unified and monopolized his definition of "Germany" and after the Nazi aera everybody is eager to emphasize he is not German. Comming from the region of Frankfurt I certainly better understand Luxemburgish than many dialects like of Kiel or Vienna. And in Trier they speak almost Lexeburgish and nobody consider it to be a proper language.

I think english simply lacks the right vocabulary to denote this dialect continuum, "German" is a wrong translation, since Danes, Suedes and English themselves are not less Germanic than Germans... lanx --217.224.5.152 16:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


Mtravellerh, In contrast to Blue Mars, I do not dispute the status of modern Luxemburgish as an independent language. Yet, I consider Luxemburgish and German to be mutually intelligible, at least in their written forms. Spoken Luxemburgish is certainly unintelligible for most Germans who do not come from the Eifel region.
However, my friends in Luxemburg told me that the knowledge of French may range from "a few words and phrases" to "near perfect" and that many natives, especially those who never use French at work, feel uneasy when speaking to the omnipresent French or Belgian shop assistants in Luxemburg City. And one of my friends, who teaches French at a Lycée, usually speaks Luxemburgish when entering a shop and is occasionally taken aback by shop assistants who tell him things like "parlez Francais" (no "Monsieur", no "s'il vous plait", just plain "parlez Francais").
Anyway, I hope you do not feel offended when I say that, to the best of my knowledge, German is very closely related to Luxemburgish, there is a great degree of mutual intelligibility of the written standard languages and that most (or many?) Luxemburgers are more at ease with some form of Standard German than with French.
The literal word-to-word translations from Luxemburgish to Standard German you mention, do achieve a satisfactory result. You must keep in mind that in many parts of Germany, Germans do the same thing when speaking Standard German. I have never witnessed a Luxemburger groping for words or stumbling helplessly through Standard German grammar, but the Standard German they speak sound (to us Germans) funny but quite alright. I would call this fluencyUnoffensive text or character 10:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The Luxemburgish language is a High German language. However, Alsatian, Yiddish and Pennsylvania Dutch are high German languages, too, so it may be up to the reader to decide whether being a "high German language" makes a language a "German dialect". Although I don't have any close friends or relatives in Luxemburg, I've visited the country numerous times. I've been in Esch, Luxemburg, Wasserbillig and other towns and cities. So my afore posted comments do indeed have some reference. In Esch (close to the French border) the vendor of a bakery greeted me in Luxemburgish and I would estimate I've spotted nearly as much signs written in French as in Luxemburgish or High German (Not only private/commercial signs, but also road sings, e.g. "emplacement d'arrêt d'urgence - Nothaltebucht") In Wasserbillig (close to the German border) I've heard no one speaking French. The guy at the gas station, the sales-woman in the supermarket, everyone spoke High German and some Luxemburgish (and there was nothing which could have indicated me being German, at least nothing that I know of;-) Perhaps the smell? :p ). Due to the lower taxes however, there are a lot of Germans buying their alcohol in Luxemburg, which surely contributes to the fact that High German is quite dominant in supermarkets, especially those near the German border. --BlueMars 20:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speakers ...

The intro says 110 million, the infobox says 100 and the German wikipedia says 120 million native speakers. Who's right? Rex 14:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


I think the number is around 96 million. You can find this at this site: http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=deu

which in turn cites Raymond Gordon as a source. Gordon, Raymond G., Jr. (ed.), 2005. Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Fifteenth edition. Dallas, Tex.: SIL International

I believe that the source is fairly reputable, but it should be double-checked

Traditionally, the number of speakers is given between 100 and 120 million. But if you look at that figure, it seems somewhat exaggerated. There are (according to Ethnologue) about 75 million first language speakers in Germany. This figure is reliable, as the population is around 80 million, but this includes at least 5 million foreigners who have German as a second language, if at all. There are (again according to Ethnologue) about 7.5 million first language speakers in Austria. And there are (according to the Swiss Census Bureau) some 4.6 milliion speakers in Switzerland. This makes a total of 87 million, approximately. The big question is, then: Where do the remaining 9 million speakers live (Ethnologue says there are some 96 million)? There may be a couple of million Germans and descendants of Germans scattered all over the world, but they will hardly add up to 9 million. Most traditionally German speaking communities in the USA, Russia, Kazakhstan, Brazil and Argentina are rapidly assimilating to the surrounding majorities. So, if I had to put forward a figure, I would make it some 90 million worldwide.Unoffensive text or character 09:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, now that I come to think of it: There is another problem with Ethnologue's figures. Ethnologue lists a number of languages for Germany, Austria and Switzerland: Bavarian (the number of speakers in Germany given as 246,050, which is ridiculously low), Franconian, Saxonian, Alemannisch, etc. Practically all German-speaking Swiss and an overwhelming majority of the Austrians are being classified as "Alemannisch" or "Bavarian". That, to my mind, means that they cannot at the same time be first-language speakers of German. To make it short: I would not rely on the Ethnologue, as the figures it gives for Central European languages seem largely to be made up and, what is worse, made up by uninformed people.Unoffensive text or character 09:12, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that we put in a range of speakers. For instance, we may say that there are between 90 - 100 million speakers, for example. 69.109.174.162 03:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of changing the number of first language speakers to 95 to 110 million and the number of second language speakers to 20 million. This should be within the range of most serious estimates and it should make the article more consistent with respect to this point. Rex, how about removing the tag now? Unoffensive text or character 09:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You forgot those native speakers in Northern Italy, Western France etc.

You are right there, but how many speakers are we talking about? Some 500,000 in Alsace and Lorraine, some 300,000 in Italy, and probably less than 50,000 in Hungary and Romania. Numbers in Belgium and Denmark are low as well.Unoffensive text or character 09:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of dialect?

I hate to interrupt a really good edit war, but may I ask whether there is a mutually agreed upon definition of the term "Dialect"? Thx (joel johnson)

You're not interrupting anything, the edit war has been over for a month and a half. And the answer to your question is no. —Angr 05:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't know, Angr, I think there is a more or less generally agreed upon definition of the term, but it's a very broad one: Dialect.
I've read Dialect, and it completely skirts the issue of the polysemous nature of the word. —Angr 16:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that we aren't going to find a really good answer for this. The problem is their really isn't a clear distinction between a dialect and a language. For example, in Chinese, Cantonese and Mandarin are not really that close, yet the entire world is convinced that Chinese is one "language." The same is the case for German. Standard German is quite different from say Schwäbisch. Compare "Sie machen unser Schiff kaputt! Wir gehen unter!" to "Dia machat onser Schiffle he! Mir gangat onter!" Yet German is also considered one language. Comparitively, Swedish, Danish, and Norweigan are much closer and a Dane can, on a good day, understand a Swede quite well. In Swedish schools they even expect students to read Danish without any instruction. Communication is not perfect here either, though. Anyway, it seems as if the definition is merely political. The Russians have for years been trying to convince everyone that Moldovan is a seperate "language" when it really differs from standard Romanian no more than other non-standard dialects. What makes something the standard dialect? Usually the one from the largest most economically self-sufficient city. Sorry, for making this so long. Much of the previous information was obtained from a book "The Power of Babel" by John McWhorter.Deman7001 07:15, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Examples like Swabian are one definition of dialect, roughly "a linguistic variety that is genetically related to a standard language, and whose speakers are usually educated in the local standard, but that is distinct enough from the standard as to be difficult or impossible for other speakers of the standard language to understand". Scots and Neapolitan would be other examples following this definition; this is the definition whose border to the term "language" is usually more political than linguistic. The other definition of dialect is any set of idiolects that share some common feature or features. This definition is used by theoretical linguists (syntacticians, phonologists), and is also the usual meaning in the U.S., which doesn't have "dialects" by the first definition. This page shows examples of the sort of differences found between dialects of American English: very little here deviates from the standard enough to impede intelligibility, and no variety of American English is distinct enough that a reasonable person could entertain the idea of calling it a different language. —Angr 07:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bayreuth

I have a question, how do you pronounce "Bayreuth". I can't quite figure that out.

Roughly "bye-ROYT". IPA is [baiˈʁɔyt]. —Angr 10:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Bayreuth ? It´s a town in north bavarian, or what do you mean ?!? i AM german, but i don´t speak ENGLISH so good and my translation programm shows more than one word for "pronounce" ...the first was the same as "discribe", so in that case its a town ;)

Die Frage war, wie man den Namen "Bayreuth" ausspricht. —Angr 15:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "32% of citizens of the EU-15 countries say they can converse in German"

This 32% percentage of EU-15 citizens does obviously include the people of Germany and Austria so I find it rather misleading that such a statement is standing right next to: "German was once the lingua franca of central, eastern and northern Europe and remains one of the most popular foreign languages taught worldwide, and is more popular than French as a foreign language in Europe." It comes out as though this figure concerns German as a second language. In addition, the statement that French is less popular as a foreign language in Europe as German is directly contradicted by precisely the same source quoted to make this remark, see: [1] page 13.

Antonius Block 01:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of EE

This is a pronunciation that needs to be listed. I've been listening to different recordings of a particular Richard Wagner aria, and the singers' pronunciationd of this syllable vary. --Scottandrewhutchins 19:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

First thing's first: Who was the singer who brought this phonological abnormality to light? Which Wagner aria was he or she singing? And how did this person manage to pronounce EE in a way that could not be accurately described as any kind of front unrounded close-mid to open-mid vowel?
Really, if we were to concern ourselves with what singers do to German - I am a member of the guilty party itself, having performed a few Schubert Lieder - or what we do to any other language, these articles would stretch thousands of pages. They would also be insufferable. I remember being at a Mexican restaurant with a group of teachers and students debating whether singers ought to linger on a pair of Ls (z.B. Hölle) longer than a single L. One very good diction coach said yes, but a grad student said no, that singers do this by false analogy with Italian. There are recordings of great singers doing both, so it may just be a matter of taste. In other cases diction choices are made out of necessity, like the near-universal substitution of an Italian R when singing German, French and even English, languages whose Rs are articulated further back in the throat and are not resonant enough for the stage.
You can see why the linguist won't learn much about a language's phonetics and phonology with a trip to the opera house, nor will the singer get much help with the fine points of German singing diction out of linguistics. Sorry :) Skotoseme 16:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

It was James Morris on "Auf wolkigen Höh'n wohnen die Götter". He appears to pronunce "Speer" like "spear" and "heer" like "hare". Donald McIntyre pronounces them "spare" and "hare". I'm doing this for an audtion, and I don't speak German (a German aria is mandatory), and I don't want to sound stupid mispronouncing things. --Scottandrewhutchins 20:12, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, as they are (I guess) non-native speakers, of course they will be a bit off when it comes to pronunciation. "ee" in German is definitely not the English "ee" or "ea", "spare" would be closer (my vowel-IPA-knowledge is too bad to look the correct definition up). At least in spoken German, the 'r' would be transformed to a schwa in that case, by the way. I'm not really up on stage pronunciation for German, though. Baranxtu 23:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The dictionary pronuciation is /ʃpe:r/ (or whatever funky R is used for German IPA - I can't remember if it's upside-down and capitalized or just capitalized) Anyway, we're talking about three vowels:
English "spear" or German "tief" /i/
German "Speer" /e/ and
English "spare" /eɪ/
So, like Baranxtu said, "spare" is close to "Speer" but not quite it. There are two problems for an English speaker: 1) This weird /e/ exists in Standard English only as part of the diphthong /eɪ/ (as in "spare" or "say"). It is only isolated by Canadians and Minnesotans, who famously do a similar thing to O (/oʊ/ > /o/as in "Minnesooota." Interestingly, German also has this sound as in "das Boot" /bo:t/...the Minnesota native in my German diction class never had a problem with these sounds....but I digress) 2) Although IPA uses the same symbol, German /e/ is more closed (that is, a couple millimeters closer to /i/) than an artificially isolated English /e/ (artifically isolated by, say, holding the /e/ vowel before closing the the diphthong /ɪ/). So it's possible that you're hearing Morris' pronunciation of /e/ as /i/ because the more closed German /e/ could more closely resemble the latter. But his pronunciation, whatever it is, should be identical for both words, so...is he singing the words in different registers of the voice perhaps? (I don't know the aria well.) Singers tend to modify vowels into oblivion, especially on high notes and especially with closed vowels like /e/. This would explain the difference, but I can see why you're unnerved.
If you're still hearing /i/, forget Morris and follow McIntyre: closed /e/ without any trace of a diphthong. Good luck with your audition! :) Skotoseme 00:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Since I am a native german speaker, I can hardly understand the problem, but I can give advice: Listen to Theo Adam's Wotan, who pronounces very poperly. Even better in this respect: Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau's Wotan in the Karajan recording of "Rheingold".
Or if you speak or understand French: Imagine the words spelled like this: Spéer and Héer.--Vully 00:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Allow me to clear this up. The words Speer and Heer contain a diphthong which is pronounced [ɛɐ̯] in some dialects and [eɐ̯] in others. This is separate from the phoneme /eː/ which is sometimes written ee (e.g. Beere, Beet). The latter is always pronounced [eː]. — Timwi 23:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that singular Speer and plural Speere have different phonemes, even if the first surfaces with a diphthong and the second surfaces with a monophthong. —Angr 06:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
That diphthong with [ɐ̯] is only used in certain varieties of German, but it is usually not used in singing. A closed German [eː] may indeed be similar to an English [ɪ] as in sing. -- j. 'mach' wust ☛ ☏ 10:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I can't speak for all Germans, but I pronounce "Speer" [spɛɐ̯] and "Speere" [ˈspeːrə]. – Timwi 20:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Are you from Hamburg or nearby? —Angr 08:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I can't speak for all Germans either - the pronounciation certainly varies in different areas -, but I pronounce [ʃpeːɐ̯] and [ˈʃpeːɐ̯rə], I think (I'm not really used to IPA, I hope I've made no mistake). So in my pronounciation (I am from Graz/Austria), there is that slight diphthong in plural, too, and thus the phoneme stays the same. --213.33.24.72 17:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The adding of links to the wiki

hey guys,

I've recently launched a completely free site to teach people the basics of German. I am wondering what the requirements of my site are before I can add a link to it on wikipedia? Thanks, Morryau 09:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Please see WP:EL, in particular WP:EL#Advertising and conflicts of interest. —Angr 09:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


Thanks Angr, that explained it perfectly. My site is at http://www.jiffygerman.com I currently don't think it has much to offer, as I only just put it up, but I will be adding content over time. Is there anything on this site that would prevent it from ever appearing on wiki? Assuming content is at a suitable level.

Thanks again, Morryau 11:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Can someone take a look at my site and either add it to the wiki or let me know what is needed before it is allowed to go on here? Or let me know if I can add it myself. Cheers, 58.107.172.115 03:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea for the suitability of your site regarding wiki. however, as a german, i can tell you you MUST fix up the capitalizationg on your "useful german phrases" page. the german one needs to be correct: all nouns are capitalized, and you need to standardise what you do on the english side. it's a rather important aspect of german Deguerradeguerra

It's curious that your concern for "Rechtschreibung" only applies to German. The word "standardise" is spelt in English with a "z" and the pronoun "I" as well as the names of languages including German are capitalized in English. Cakeandicecream 09:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Standardise and standardize are both correct spellings, although the first is found mostly only outside North America. —Angr 09:30, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
That's interesting. My Webster (American) only knows the z form. My only British source is Cassells who also only lists the z form. Do you have other reference? The s form applies to many other languages especially German. Cakeandicecream 15:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
All words with the -ize/-ization suffix can be spelled -ise/-isation outside of North America. —Angr 16:08, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Hello Angr. I checked Webster online and found:
"Main Entry: stan·dard·ise
British variant of STANDARDIZE"
Also Wikipedia uses both spellings probably depending on the origin of the author.
My Cassells was published in London in 1978, probably too old. I'll consider the s-form as a variation sometimes used in Great Britain. In all other cases it's a mistake. The standard version is only z. Germans writing English tend to take the s-form as a carry-over from their native language. I mark it wrong. There's only one source for acceptable spelling and that's a dictionary. I know linguists at least in Germany like to report trends in a language instead of tackling the real problems.
By the way, thanks for your tip. International characters are at least discernible on my screen even though I don't understand them yet. Also Jan Hofer (ARD) must have gotten wind of my contribution to German Phonology. His pronunciation of the plural of "Stadt" in German conformed for the first time ("Tagesschau" on Thursday Dec.28th) to the accepted standard pronunciation "Städte". If he sticks to the standard I'll revise my contribution. Cakeandicecream 21:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 15 million speaker gap.

This huge gap of 15 million native speakers has got to go. It's simply too big. Someone needs to get respectable references on the number of speakers.Rex 21:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Read texts

Does anybody know a wiki-based site where English-German texts (copyright free) are read, both in German and in English, as mp3-files for example? If not: Is there anybody interested in to found such a site? Contact directly via delabarquera@aol.com - "Wikipedia-fellow" Germany: Delabarquera --172.158.188.44 14:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another postman image

Could we please stop adding inaccurate images (R9tgokunks?) created by the postmann dude. He wasn't banned on the German wiki for nothing you know.Rex 18:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a better image? The image you deleted should be complemented with its exact source and with a comment explaining that it shows other Germanic languages, like Dutch, too. A version acceptable to be shown here would not have Netherlands and Flemish region in grey. LHOON 22:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Do we need another image? I don't mind AT ALL if people want to insert an image which shows former German speaking areas in Eastern Europe, but I simply can't tolerate it that separate languages are included as German. These images, created by Micheal Postmann, are all controversial. Apparantly, the positioning of German in Eastern Europe isn't even correct either. If someone wants to insert a similar image, they have to make sure it's sourced and accurate. Rex 22:43, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Who is that Postmann guy, anyway? LHOON 11:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

From what I heard he was a wikipedian from the German wikipedia who made a lot of these maps, (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Postmann_Michael) and was banned for"(POV aus zweifelhaften Quellen, Verharmlosung des Nationalsozialismus." (POV based on untrustworthy sources, revisionism concerning National Socialism) ... I strongly support we remove all his maps from commons and this wikipedia.Rex 14:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hello/Hallo

The German word for "hello" is "Hallo" and NOT literally "Guten Morgen/Guten Tag/Guten Abend". (Same statement in German: Das deutsche Wort für "hello" ist "Hallo" und ist NICHT identisch mit "Guten Morgen/Guten Tag/Guten Abend") --84.174.219.137 04:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

You're making the literal translation error. You have to look for equivalent use. Germans mostly say Guten Morgen/Tag/Abend when greeting someone, and native English speakers in those same circumstances will usually say hi or hello. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The trouble is, German has a formality difference here that English doesn't have. Yes, in German you say "Guten Tag" or "Guten Abend" when greeting someone, but usually only to someone you don't know well (someone you'd call Sie). Saying it to a friend or acquaintance sounds silly, or at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek; to people you'd call du you're far more likely to say "Hallo" or "Grüß dich" or even just "Hi". (This applies to the northern half of Germany. In the south and Austria there are greetings like "Grüß Gott" and "Servus", but I don't have a feel for how formal or informal they are.) —Angr 07:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
People use Guten Morgen/Tag/Abend formally and informally, and Grüß dich/Grüß Gott informally too of course, but "Hallo" is not used as much, at least not in my experience. Perhaps it does depend where you live. My point was only that "Hallo" is not used in Germany in the same way or with the same frequency "hello/hi" are used in English. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)::
That's definitely wrong. "Hallo" is used in the same way as "hello" in English and has nothing to do with "Du" or "Sie". --84.174.225.31 22:51, 15 January 2007 (UTC) [2]
Hm, I cannot really say that Guten Tag/Abend/Morgen are very common here. Most common really seems to be hallo here in this area -- which is Hannover/Brunswick, Lower Saxony. Guten Tag/Abend/Morgen exist, but especially younger people use them rarely. But you might hear e.g. n'abend or just morgen. I'd say I for example never say Guten Tag/..., I'd say even my parents never do. Under friends or people knowing each other na/moin/hey/hi are also pretty common, grüß dich maybe too.
I agree with Angr. Combine the circumstantial with the formal/social distinctions, and a one-word translation seems problematic. Hallo is commonly used, but of course not precisely the same way hello is used in English. One example of hallo is when calling someone from afar or trying to get someone's attention - but it can be the equivalent of the English hello when used in an informal greeting too. Saying "Hallo, Thomas." is perfectly common - saying "Hallo, Frau Sowienoch." is not quite as common as a greeting, but might be used, as mentioned above, also when trying to get the attention of someone you siez.
Guten Tag etc. is commonly used, but not in the exact same way hello gets used in English either. In addition to the ones mentioned by Angr, alternative formal greetings include regional variants such as saying Mahlzeit around noon (even if you already had lunch), Tag (not very polite, but it's used in formal situations too), or Grüezi/Grüessech in Switzerland, There are plenty of other informal greeting words, local and social varieties including hei, hoi, moin moin, hallihallo, Tagchen, hallöchen, schalömchen, na du, was läuft, ciao, salut etc. Should hallo be added to the box, should the usage be specified, should that entry be removed because it's too ambiguous, or what are the suggestions? ---Sluzzelin 21:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
"Schalömchen"???? Oh dear oh dear... —Angr 08:28, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it about time to say Auf Wiedersehen, Tschüss, Tschö, Pfüati, Pfüa Gott, Ade, Adschee or even Tschö mit ö to this discussion?Unoffensive text or character 09:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Infobox

I strongly agree with Angr that the infobox should not be overloaded with too much information. Its purpose is to give a general idea, detailed information should be found in the article itself. As Germans have been emigrating for centuries, it is not surprising that traces of German settlements can be found in almost all countries of the western hemisphere. It is fruitless to name them all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Unoffensive text or character (talk • contribs) 09:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] best

Of course it's true that best doesn't occur as an adjectival surface form in German, but it is the lemma form cited in the dictionary, and it occurs as a neuter noun. On the other hand, perhaps besser would be better. --Pfold 16:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Which dictionary is that? I've never seen a German dictionary that listed best as a German lemma. Duden lists it as best... with the ellipsis indicating the missing ending, while Wahrig lists it as beste. —Angr 20:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest they had the bare form (though actually Langenscheidt does, with a cross ref), but that they don't include an ending - my 1968 Wahrig has best..., Collins has best-, which seems to me the appropriate way to give a bare morpheme, as we do with -heit. --Pfold 11:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] German or English as the standard language in the USA

There is a legend popular in Germany that the official language in the USA was dependent on one vote somewhere. This is a pure legend known as the "Muehlenberg-Legende" and can be looked up in the German Wikipedia or under http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/zwiebelfisch/0,1518,295157,00.html where an English version is also available.

The rumor started about 1840 from a book by Franz Lohers published in 1847 called "History and Achievements of the Germans in America". At the beginning of the 19th century the number of immigrants from Germany was actually less that popularly assumed. In 1830 there were less that 33% in Pennsylvania and less than 10% nationwide.

USA had never had a vote to determine the official language niether nationally nor in a state. The legend is based on a petition to the House of Representatives from Jan. 9th 1794 by immigrants living in Virginia requesting that the laws should also be published in German. The responsible committee turned it down with a vote of 42 to 41. The speaker of the House was Mr. Muehlenberg. His comment afterwards were that the sooner the Germans become Americans the better.

Cakeandicecream 15:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I have heard this story, the Muhlenberg legend, countless times from old and young, well and poorly educated people. I have made the experience that with most people you better just let it pass. They will never believe that a story we Germans have been cherishing for two centuries is false.Unoffensive text or character 15:49, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Vielen Dank Unoffensive. Zu spät hab ich es in der deutschen Ausgabe nachgeschlagen. Meinen ursprünglichen Beitrag habe ich dann entsprechend angepaßt.Cakeandicecream 16:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German of Luxembourg and Liechtenstein

Do Luxembourg and Liechtenstein have their own dialects of German? This needs to be addressed in the article. Gringo300 04:38, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Luxemburgish was traditionally considered a dialect of German. Only recently it has gained the status of an official language, so that now, similar to Dutch, the local dialects are part of the Germanic dialect continuum but they are no longer regarded as dialects of the German language. Furthermore, on the German side the use of local dialects has decreased dramatically, so that there is now evolving a sharp linguistic boundary between Germany and Luxembourg.
The Liechtenstein dialect is an Alemannic dialect that is very similar to the dialects of eastern Switzerland and of Vorarlberg in Austria. Both in Switzerland and Liechtenstein (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, in Vorarlberg), all generations use the local dialect as the only means of everyday communication, but there is no independent Liechtenstein variety of German.Unoffensive text or character 10:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
rf. Swiss GermanUnoffensive text or character 10:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion

Can someone tell me the 'undisputed' no. of total speakers of German and French? Which of them have more speakers? Please quote the number in numericals. Maharashtraexpress 15:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Toilette

In one of the tables the translation of "Where is the bathroom?" is given as "Wo ist der Toilette," which means where is the toilet. While getting the point across, a toilet and a bathroom aren't quite the same thing. The more appropriate translation should be "Wo ist der Badezimmer?" Badezimmer, of course, meaning bathroom. 67.142.130.18 05:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't Americans mean toilet when they say bathroom? Why would anybody be asking for the real bathroom in a restaurant or on board a plane? Unoffensive text or character 07:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

(after e.c.) "Wo ist das Badezimmer?" (or "Wo ist das Bad?") would be asked when looking for the room with bath/shower facilities, in your hotel room, while looking at a new apartment, when studying blueprints of a house etc. It would only very rarely mean, Where is the bathroom? in the sense of Where is the can? While most English speakers prefer euphemisms and wouldn't be so crudely specific to actually name the toilet in their question, it's very common practice in German to ask Wo ist die Toilette? (alternatively: das Klo or das WC) when looking for a room with a toilet. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Just as an aside, "toilet" is an euphemism itself, and originally referred to the process of washing and dressing. Femto 15:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Toilette (french) is mostly being used to ask for the lavatory (that is what this discussion is about, right?), but it can also mean the place to put makeup on or clean your hands (Room that has a mirror and a sink). People often add to the question the sentence that they are NOT looking for the lavatory, if they are looking for the place zum "frischmachen" (basic cleaning, makeup). Badezimmer = Bathroom is used the same way as Toilette but its a German word and not a "foreign" one, which was "germanized" and causes headaches to average people, because foreign words are often misspelled, since they don't follow German pronunciation and spelling rules(Toilette would be spelled "Tolette" if it were a German word). WC (water-closet) is french again and straight forward. If you ask for the WC, 99.9% chance that the person is looking for the lavatory. "Klo" is short for "Klosett" (and french again) and is vulgar language, slang. Men might also ask for the "pissoir" (french) which is also straight forward. It's more used in an attempt to be funny by pretending to be "high class". I am not a language professor, but my bet is that it must have been used commonly in aristocratic circles in the past. I was born in Berlin (Prussian so to speak). There are probably a lot more ways to ask for the "stille Örtchen" (a descriptive phrase being used for the same thing) depending on the area and the form of German spoken there. --roy<sac> Talk! .oOo. 10:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
roy wrote: Badezimmer = Bathroom is used the same way as Toilette but its a German word and not a "foreign" one. I have never heard the word Badezimmer used to mean "WC", but then of course there are dozens of ways to refer to the "stilles Örtchen" and there may be social milieus that say "Badezimmer" when they mean WC. But I am pretty sure it is not in common use. Unoffensive text or character 12:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spoken in Iceland

Why is Iceland listed for 'countries spoken in'? --66.41.102.194 18:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

For many languages, the "spoken in" section of the language info box does simply make no sense. Languages like English, German, Chinese or Italian (to name a few) are spoken all over the world in countless places and by countless groups of immigrants. As in probably every other country in the world, there certainly is a German community in Iceland. But I think we should limit the countries named in the "spoken in" section to those where at least some clearly defined areas or regions are German speaking.Unoffensive text or character 10:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

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