Talk:George R. R. Martin

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[edit] Ispired by wheell of time?

The article say "(ostensibly inspired by the success of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time cycle)", but AFAIK George Martin declared that was ispired by the Wars of the Roses)

-.- why can't it be inspired from both? 83.130.227.185 20:35, 8 August 2005 (UTC).
It -can- be, but it doesn't mean it -was-. If someone can source either it should be included, but thats all. Arkon 17:53, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I would frankly need a citation to prove that Martin wasn't inspired by the Wars of the Roses, but a google search turns up first a book review: Martin's Seven Kingdoms resemble England during the Wars of the Roses, with the Stark and Lannister families standing in for the Yorks and Lancasters [1]. It could definitely be inspired by both (it's not mutually exclusive) but the Wars of the Roses inspiration is far far far more apparent. — Laura Scudder | Talk 00:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
a source about the War of the Roses: Amazon interview George Martin, another inspiration (cited in this article is a series by Tad Williams)--Moroboshi 21:44, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pruning

Why would someone remove a nasty comment, only to quote the text removed?

[edit] Removed "eventful.com"

I removed the eventful.com link, since the appearences stated there (and more) are present on his own webpage.

[edit] Fleshing out needed?

This article could probably use a little more description of the Song of Ice and Fire series, though of course that has it's own entry. It is, however what Martin is mostly known for at this point, so it seems rather relevant. Certanly some discussion of the series publishing success would be good.

The uncollected short stories section should probably also be removed unless someone actually comes up with something to go there. Ocicat 00:09, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Every story that was listed there was part of a collection or a novel excerpt, so I deleted the section. If anyone can find a story demonstrably not found elsewhere (I'd be surprised if none existed), restore it. Brendan 22:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Themes

The themes section needs specific and reliable support; as it stands it's all original research. If no one has provided references within a week or so, I'll remove the section. Brendan Moody 14:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

All I can say is that if it is Original Research it is very well done, this section describes "exactly" the nature of GRRM's prose. If no one has had the sense to write this about his writing where is the harm, it would be a real shame to loose this section. (not the author of the text - or anyone connected - BTW) :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page) 14:42, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it's a rather good description, and I'm sure a little research would turn up similar citations in published reviews (I'll do a little work on that myself this week). But it's hardly an irreplaceable set of information- the web is full of similar comments. The harm is that it's a clear violation of policy, by the way. Brendan Moody 14:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I've found a few magazine articles that should make most of the content here sourceable (I love my university's online database). I'll try to finish fixing it up in the next couple days. Brendan Moody 15:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latest edits

Mystar's latest edits were good, but they confused the order of Martin's biography and made it a little hard to follow, so I reverted and then readded the substantive edits while keeping the biography chronological. Brendan Moody 19:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


I hate to say it, but you removed the citation needed. I'm sorry but what is there is simply not acceptable. It is conjecture and spectulative. I would like to see proof. I would like to see a soruce please. If non can be provided, then it stands to reason it then violates policy Mystar 22:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Um, the whole section is now labelled with an "unreferenced" box. (It's right under the "themes" header.) That's the equivalent of a "citation needed" tag, and just like with a "citation needed" tag, if sources aren't added within a couple weeks you, me, or anyone else should remove the section. Brendan Moody 22:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


Well, as you should note, being rather new, some of this I'm only just learning. I regret however that some people have not followed that policy on "another" page causeing a great deal of agnst, so I was simply following "example". I shall re-read this page seeing that it conforms, and bone up on some pertnate Wiki policy.

Mystar 23:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


":Um, the whole section is now labelled with an "unreferenced" box. (It's right under the "themes" header.) That's the equivalent of a "citation needed" tag, and just like with a "citation needed" tag,...."

uhm, why was that not done with Goodkind then, rather than ravage his whole page? I guessing that only "other authors" are allowed this courtesy... Kind of a double standard would you agree? Mystar 13:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

This was not done with Goodkind's page because the dispute there was not about reliable sources (except in the case of the Inchoatus essay and the text citing it, which you yourself wanted to remove) but about maintaining a neutral point of view. "Unreferenced" tags are not useful when no one questions that the material is referenced. Brendan Moody 19:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I must confess to having had some issues with the Themes section's lack of sources. I'll see what I can turn up in the way of references for it.--Werthead 11:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I seem to recall that the issue of Dragon with Melisandre on the cover (#305, I think) featured an interview in which GRRM talked a little bit about his style and his goals as a writer. There's probably a lot of stuff floating around in old issues of Locus/The New York Review of Science Fiction/etc as well. Stilgar135 14:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] High Praise

Mystar, can you explain how calling a book the best of the year cannot be considered "high praise"? Stilgar135 23:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The wording is justified and obvious in the cited context. The precedent is there for its inclusion and I've put it back in. NeoFreak 04:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll give the fact that it has been praised, but lets be honest here. high is over the top you you know it. yes you are a rabid fan and think it should have more than high praise, but simply stating that someone "thinks" the book is the best that year is not "high" praise. It is an over the top fanatic view point plain and simple. it is just a bit much.

Mystar 06:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I think arguing over "praise" and "high praise" is a bit juvinille and tedious so that's fine as is. Then again maybe "a firestorm of praise"? ;) NeoFreak 07:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I think praise is quite adequate, I agree with Mystar that just praise is fine. I read through the reviews that aFfC has on Amazon, and they are a bit lukewarm or at least 50/50. Some say fantastic, some say a little bit wanting, I think praise is adequate. The fact that it's received it from so many sources too, fans, critics, readers and publishers quite nicely gives the impression that it is well-received. Firestorm. Zing! WLU 14:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the 'high praise' tag is okay, since Time Magazine (not exactly a disreputable or fan-based source) which described Martin as the USA's answer to Tolkien, but agreed it is not worth getting into a major debate over, although in this instance Amazon reviews are not eligible sources, whilst print reviews are, and every print review I have seen of AFFC has lauded it. I am inclined to remove the 'George's Cult' tag applied to the BwB on the grounds that I have never actually heard it described as such by anyone. I'll leave it a couple of days to see if anyone has any objections?--Werthead 02:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Just praise means no more arguing, the links are there so people can read them on their own and decide. Why aren't the amazon reviews eligible sources? If there's a wikipedia-based reason, could you show me where so I can read the policy (as a personal favour 'cause I don't know where to find it)? I originally put them in for the publshed reviews, not the reader reviews, amazon seems to be the most convenient source of reviews for authors (Jordan and McCaffrey in this case), since we can't link to print sources directly. I got no opinion on the cult thing, but a quick search of BwB and "Brotherhood without Banners" linked with "George's cult" turned up 4 hits, 1 of which was wikipedia, the other was a mirror site. Doesn't seem verifiable. You could pull it and if anyone turns up a reference, they can put it back in. WLU 14:46, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Simply read Wikipedia:Reliable Sources. Simply put, the "Editorial Reviews" on Amazon could be considered reliable sources (such as those from Publisher's Weekly), but the various epinions are not reliable. - Runch 04:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I originally included it because noteworthy persons (two bestselling authors, Robert Jordan and Anne McCaffrey) had praised the book. I don't actually mind taking it out as long as the rest of it stays, but it would be nice if someone could find where those comments came from so we could have a source where it's not two lines in the midst of a big chunk of text. They are there though, and the link does say 'authors'. I'll try to find a more direct link to Jordan/McCaffrey's opinion.WLU 11:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I haven't looked up the precise rule (since I don't have the time at the moment), but I believe it's something to do with the fact that any site which allows anyone to post comments is somewhat unreliable by Wikipedia standards since it allows potential manipulation of Wikipedia. For example, someone gets half a dozen of their mates to post glowing reviews of a book and can then proclaim that book as 'highly praised'. This is why forums are not permitted as Wikipedia sources. OTOH, an article in, for example, a reputable body like Time Magazine would be considered more legitimate as it is written by a professional and verifiably read by hundreds of thousands or millions of people. You can certainly link to the comments by Jordan and McCaffrey as quoted on Amazon, though. That's not a problem. You also can reference any print reviews as long as you provide a source for them (that is, saying which issue of a magazine and which month it was published so anyone who wants to double-check can go and do so). But agreed that 'praise' is fine. 'High praise' is rather NPOV the more I think of it, although not as NPOV as 'phenomenon'. --Werthead 23:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. If you look at the actual page, the link that leads to amazon for aFfC discusses 'authors', which is why I originally included it (for the authors who commented on the book). The link that discusses readers goes somewhere else, a SF website that presents a reader's choice award for 1999. Unmodifiable at this point by any except the webmaster, which is a concern for any website out there. WLU 01:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotations

I've got issues with the now extensive use of quotations in the article. I like the incorporation of GRRM's own words when discussing killing off characters, but I'd be happier if the other quotations were summarized rather than including them wholesale. I think they are great justification for what was there previously, and thanks for tracking them down Crawdad. Would anyone object to

"This story, and many of Martin's others, have a strong sense of melancholy. His characters are often unhappy, or at least unsatisfied, and many have elements of tragic heroes, while A Song of Ice and Fire stands out for its Hamlet-like tragedy (reference to Wagner and Inchoatus)"

rather than the acutal quotation? Hamlet-like is a bit weak, any suggestions? I also think the PW quote could be reduced to a simple reference as it's pretty much validating what is said by the sentence about character complexity.

I also think the "Best of Worldcon" is unjustified given the reference used. It's basically GRRM's opinion, which is valid to say only that he thinks they are good parties. I spent a while searching for a reference to some sort of vote to BwB as winners of 'best parties', but came up empty. In short, I think BwB throwing great parties should be taken out, perhaps replaced with a line saying GRRM likes 'em. Really, I think the second half of the Fandom section, from "For both Boston..." onwards could/should be removed and perhaps moved into a BwB stub or entry - BwB is not about GRRM, but definitely linked. I'm sure I'll get crapped on by dedicated members though. Other's thoughts? WLU 23:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I know the article doesn't read as well with the quotes in there. The only reason I put them in there was to stop an argument over whether or not the articles confirmed the assertions. I don't have any problem doing away with all the quotes and just letting the references speak for themselves. If there's any arguments, we can always just put them back in to be more concrete.
The BwB isn't a big issue for me, but I think it is relevant and noteworthy to describe an author's relationship with his fans and official fan club. We can get rid of the "best party" thing if it's not actually a reference to a formal award and replace it with a note that Martin has complimented the parties, keeping the same reference. That would actually be more relevant to Martin than if a separate body recognized the parties anyway. -Captain Crawdad 03:00, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "GRRM"

Someone removed the GRRM explanation, I think it's worth having, others? WLU 16:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It probably shouldn't have been where it was. It's just a shorthand abbreviation of his name sometimes used on the internet, not a well-known alias or nickname. If it were to be in the article, it should probably be in the fandom section, but I don't think it's very noteworthy. -Captain Crawdad 17:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
It's just a shorthand abbreviation of his name sometimes used on the internet, not a well-known alias or nickname. Notwithstanding, of course, GRRM: A RRetrospective. Stilgar135 19:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, well if it's referenced in the title of one of his own books, I suppose it is "official" enough to consider a nickname. -Captain Crawdad 19:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Fandom

I took the liberty of removing then replacing the fluff and fancruft section. After discussing it with an admin it seriously crosses the line. I see that even Werthead agrees with his comment on the Project page. Lets see if a better method can be uses and with out weasel words. Personally I don't see a "fan" section as being nessary. BwoB has its own page and that should be sufficient. Adding fancruft and fluff pieces just goes against Wiki policy.

Anyone have any ideas? Mystar 21:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I looked on your contribution history and couldn't find a conversation concerning this issue. What were the points the admin raised? I admit I'm not an expert on Wiki rules, but it seems to me that an artist's relationship with his fans is noteworthy. I see this on musicians' pages all the time. "Rocker X frequently stays after shows to sign autographs" and so forth. For example, the Phish article, which is a good article according to the talk page, has a section on Fan activities.
Also, you might be confusing the fictional Brotherhood Without Banners from the book series with the Martin fan club that is named after it. The section on Martin's page is about the fan club. The wiki article and Werthead's comment on the Project page are about the fictional organization. Oops. Never mind. Actually looking closely at what I'm talking about will save me some trouble.-Captain Crawdad 22:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


Mystar - if you can provide me with absolutely any proof that you actually talked to an admin, and you aren't just making stuff up, I'll totally leave you alone for a week, you can post whatever you want. In fact, I'll even vote that the T'lan Imass page should be deleted. I really look forward to this. Did you find the term 'fancruft' on the wikipedia projects page too? Incidentally, I think you should have discussed your edits before making them, since many people are active on the page. Also incidentally, I think the BwB section should be included, but re-written. How about:

Martin's official fan club, the Brotherhood without Banners, throws parties at conventions Martin attends, most notably at Worldcon and Boskone. Martin has attended some of these parties and praised them highly. The BwB also engages in assorted philanthropic efforts, including charity fundraising[citation needed]. As of September 2006, the organization has over 800 official members listed on its website.

I took out the 'best parties of worldcon' completely 'cause I couldn't find any legitimate source, but the paragraph does include mention that GRRM enjoys the parties. The citation needed gives time for someone knowledgeable to track down a reference for the fundraising - I don't think the bwbfanclub website really counts (sorry!). I think the fancruft tag should be removed - the entry is brief, referenced, and does discuss the importance the fanclub seems to have to GRRM. Also, it's not really fancruft since it's not fictional. The fancruft (apologies for the link, you'll have to follow disambiguation I think) page says:

As with most of the issues of importance and notability in Wikipedia, there is no firm policy on the inclusion of obscure branches of popular culture subjects. It is true that things labeled fancruft are often deleted from Wikipedia. This is primarily due to the fact that things labeled as fancruft are often poorly written, unreferenced, unwikified, and non-neutral - all things that lead to deletion. Such articles may also fall foul of Wikipedia's policy against creating "indiscriminate collections of information". Well-referenced and well-written articles on obscure topics are from time to time deleted as well, but such deletions are controversial. It is also worth noting that many articles on relatively obscure topics are featured articles. Generally speaking, the perception that an article is fancruft can be a contributing factor in its nomination and deletion, but it is not the actual reason for deletion. Rather, the term fancruft is a shorthand for content which one or more editors consider unencyclopaedic, possibly to the extent of violating policies on verifiability, neutrality or original research. Generally speaking, the perception that an article is fancruft can be a contributing factor in its nomination and deletion, but it is not the actual reason for deletion. Rather, the term fancruft is a shorthand for content which one or more editors consider unencyclopaedic, possibly to the extent of violating policies on verifiability, neutrality or original research.

So, it's well written, referenced, and I guess it's wikified. It's neutral, verifiable, and not original research. Unlike High D'Haran, which is just a listing of terms and nothing new, and could easily be replaced by a link to the geocities page in the original D'Haran wikipage. To my mind, not fancruft, should not be tagged, and illustrates an important fact - GRRM's excellent relationship with his fans. Just my opinions, any thoughts? How about replacing the paragraph with what I wrote, or something similar. WLU 23:56, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Please guys, let's all keep this civil and not bring in other disputes from other articles. I don't have any significant problems with WLU's replacement paragraph. Does that seem acceptible to everyone? Maybe I'll look for a reference on the charity claim and we can plug that up as well. -Captain Crawdad 00:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to echo Captain Crawdad on civility. The implications regarding Mystar's honesty aren't particularly productive, though a neutral request for information about his previous discussions would be appropriate; I'm curious as well.
Otherwise, I think WLU is spot-on. The essay on fancruft is just that: an essay, not a policy or guideline. It's a good way to summarize attitudes to a topic, but it's not binding or generally-followed in any real sense. (Besides, I've never seen a definition of fancruft that includes this kind of material.) I'm generally loath to remove well-written, properly referenced, at-least-moderately relevant content from any article, since I don't see how an encyclopedia like this one is improved by taking material out of it, though others of course have other standards. I'm fine with WLU's paragraph. Brendan Moody 02:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The "Best of Worldcon" thing is sort of complicated. Every day, the organizing committe of Worldcon prints a few thousand newsletters- the Worldcon Gazette or something like that. They put them under the doors of attendes and have a big stack for anyone to pick up. On Saturday and Sunday, the Gazette names a best party of the previous night, naming one of them the best of Worldcon. There's not a trophy or anything like that, but it's an actual award with some fairly heady competition. Anyone who has been to Worldcon can attest to this, and I'd bet there are people on Wikipedia who have one of these lying around their home. However, it's unlikely that you'll find this on the Internet (if you want to poke around the Noreason site, be my guest for a bunch of different reasons, primarily that Worldcon leadership tends to be somewhat old-fashioned and doesn't have the mania for archiving everything online that we Young Turks seem to subscribe to. I'm for including the specific "best of" reference, but that's only because I saw the write-up with my own eyes and know that it's 100% true.

Also, I added a link to the Child's Play site. The BWB logo is in the "gold sponsors" section- it's the first entry on the third line. Stilgar135 02:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you find more charity links? Just one is OK, several is way better. At this point, given the proof that you have for the 'best of' argument, I'm still uncomfortable saying it, I don't know what the status of personal endorsement is, but it'd be hypocritical of me to agree to it here. It's an unfortunate fact that stuff we know to be true can't really be included unless it can be linked or referenced. WLU 11:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


Awesome I'm thrilled that you can cut and paste WLU! Good on you eh! Were I to have logged my conversation I would gladly have shared it I did however discuss it on the Wikipedia IRC channel where we are allowed to ask for admin help I did discuss it with bastique. While bastique did not make any suggestions for any actions of any judgment (as I asked for none) the term fits and is applicable. Fancruft is a term sometimes used in Wikipedia to imply that a selection of content is of importance only to a small population of enthusiastic fans of the subject in question. While "fancruft" is often a succinct and frank description of such accumulations, it also implies that the content is unimportant and the contributor's judgment of notability is lacking.

The use of the term implies that an editor does not regard the material in question as encyclopedic, either because the entire topic is unknown outside fan circles, or because too much detail is present that will bore, distract or confuse a non-fan......the subject of the article in question is not notable except to hardcore fans; for example

In short the material is non-encyclopedic. Seriously I'm thrilled at the charity giving of such a group! I would offer up a hearty kudos! But the page is not about touting the actions of a few fanatics. It is not encyclopedic. Place it on the BwoB page by all means, but also keep in mind Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia.

You have a strong personal involvement in this page; however, do remember that the standards for encyclopedic articles apply to such pages just like any other, including the requirement to maintain a neutral point of view, which can be difficult. Wikipedia is not a soapbox or a vehicle for propaganda and advertising. If you want to convince people of the merits of your favorite views you could also use Wikinfo.

The point being is that unless the material is changed it falls into that category... and using the term "fandom" is neither encyclopedic nor is it neutral. Mystar 02:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Mystar, I'm not sure what your justification is for removing this info beyond your assertion that it is "non-encyclopedic". I've provided an example showing that the activities of a fan organization, including mention of charitable actions, is considered acceptable enough for a "good" rating on the artist's article. Doesn't that show precedent that the information is encyclopedic by Wikipedia's standards?
I do agree that the term "Fandom" should be changed. The Phish article uses "Fan activities" and I see nothing wrong with that. I'll also suggest moving the section down to below the "Awards" section. -Captain Crawdad 05:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Fan activities, move it around both sound good. I still think this is a good page for it, unless someone wants to set up a BwB wiki page, but I don't know how comfortable I'd feel about that, I can't say I think it falls into 'noteworthy'. I like ths short, what, two paragraph summary but if more people feel strongly about removing it, I'm not going to die if it's pulled.WLU 11:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, first off I like the changes WLU made to the Fandom section, especially how it focuses on Martin's activities. Second, I renamed the section "Fan relationship" since "Fandom" isn't much of a word and "Fan activities no longer applies to the section's focus. I'm not thrilled with the title, so if someone has a better idea, go for it. Third, I stuck his stance on fan fiction into this section, since it seemed to go along with his fan interactions. Fourth, I stuck a heading on his biography. -Captain Crawdad 20:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

"Fan Groups" or "Following"? NeoFreak 23:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
"Relationship to Fanbase"?WLU 11:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


Well here is the problem. It now reads like an advert for BwoB's parties! No offence but it sounds and looks wrong. It is poorly worded. Actually it reads like a propaganda piece. Lets not extend into an area that simply will not fit the confines of Wiki policy just because someone wants to see a reference about parties.... A Bio page is not a soap Box to wax about who has a better party. I'm sorry it simply will not work.

Why don't you suggest some edits and we'll all have a look at them, that seems fair.WLU 11:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The questions we must ask are these,

  1. 1 Why is the "and gives great parties there?
  2. 2 Is this website really an authoritative source for an encyclopedia: http://www.bwbfanclub.com/fr_grrm.php, ?
  3. 3 Can we really cite fan club for a NPOV account of itself?
  4. 4 Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report? (Remember that conflicts of interest are not always explicitly exposed and bias is not always self-evident. However, that a source has strong views is not necessarily a reason not to use it, and it wholly appears that this is not only biased and POV driven (Self-serving), but again non encyclopedic)

We may not use primary sources whose information has not been made available by a reliable publisher. Although the company or organization is a good source of information on itself, it has an obvious bias.

The whole "and gives great parties" isn't speaking to the content of the page, it is speaking to something someone else is doing and is not a part of an encyclopedic page. It reads poorly and it has no real place on the page.

NOW acting in good faith, rather that my placing a tag or deleting it all together and not fixing the offending section, I'll give people a few days to work on it and edit it appropriately. Mystar 03:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

1. The topic of the section is Martin's interactions with fans. He attends the parties of his fan club and has written about his enjoyment of them. That's interaction with fans.
2. It's a statement made by Martin about the BwB. Martin is fully aware of the organization, so if the website were printing lies about statements he had made, its very likely that he would find out about it and have it taken down. Therefore, the likelihood that this statement was in fact made by Martin is extremely high.
3. The reference for the charity activities links to the actual charity website, not the BwB. The reference about the parties comes from Martin himself. He either made the statement or he did it, and as I showed above, this is a reliable source proving that he made the statement. The third reference shows the current number of people registered as members of the organization. Where else would you get that information but from the organization's official website?
4. There's no room for bias on any of these three references, as I showed above. The two references we use from the BwB are about the number of its members and proof that Martin made a statement. Either they have that many registered members or they don't. Either Martin made the statement or he didn't. lying about either of these two facts, but if you can hunt down some information that plays counter to the facts that the website presents, they should certainly be listed here. Otherwise, everything is factual and unbiased.
"The whole "and gives great parties" isn't speaking to the content of the page, it is speaking to something someone else is doing and is not a part of an encyclopedic page. It reads poorly and it has no real place on the page."
I assume you're saying that the assertion that Martin has complimented the BwB's great parties is not backed up by the text on the reference because Martin says "At Torcon and again at Noreascon, they were recognized for throwing the best party at worldcon" which would mean that commendations came from the people at Torcon and Noreascon and not him personally. Well, Martin spend the previous paragraph complimenting the parties: "At the Philadelphia worldcon in 2001 a few of them got together, and we had a dinner and a party. It was a pleasant little party, but nothing compared to the ones the Bros have thrown since. I have vague memories of flashing lights, beautiful bartenders, lamprey pies, strip trivia games, Mardi Gras beads, haiku, ice sculptures, three-fisted roisterers and red-faced Irishmen, hot babes in leather cat suits, midnight quests, and strange drinks with stranger names being thrust into my hands. (p) The Bros know how to party. At Torcon and again at Noreascon, they were recognized for throwing the best party at worldcon." I think that it is well within editorial license to distill that long paragraph of descriptive text into a single adjective of "great". If you disagree, we can always nip a direct quote to be perfectly accurate on exactly what Martin has said about the parties. I'm fine with that. -Captain Crawdad 04:14, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


You also keep missing the main point A fan page is not acceptable reference. But more to the point, what is not in question is that these people party. So what? What is in question is the validity and merit of it being on an author’s bio page. It is not a part of his bio; it is not a part of his work. It is not a part of anything other than a few fans want to get together and get plastered. It has no business being on a bio page. Put it where it belongs...on the BwoB page. Put GRRM's quote there.... where it is applicable.

Mystar 18:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

There are many topics that it would be unacceptible to use a fan club as a reference, however, as I've described above, the way we use the site as a reference is acceptable. Martin made a statement, and they have 800 registered members. There's no POV or interpretation there.
What is in question is the validity and merit of it being on an author’s bio page.
If you'll look to my posts above, you'll see that I cite precedent for putting fan activities on an artist's page. However, the focus of the article as it currently stands is actually about Martin's interaction with fans, including his convention attendance, partying with his fan club, and restriction on fan fiction. Thus, the section is about actions and statements Martin has made. That is pertinent to a bio page. -Captain Crawdad 18:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I think we should leave it pretty much as is - unless there is a significant amount of text that can be added, I think we've bottomed out on what could be included on BwB and it definitely isn't worth its own page at this point. GRRM gets along well with his fans, they have a presence at conventions, have 800+ members and he doesn't like fanfic. Sounds fine to me, any objections?WLU 18:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Nope. It looks good to me. NeoFreak 19:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I spoke to mystar, but it was someone else who told him the above referenced information. Not I. Bastiq▼e demandez 19:37, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


SO! WLU you stated and I quote.... Mystar - if you can provide me with absolutely any proof that you actually talked to an admin, and you aren't just making stuff up, I'll totally leave you alone for a week, you can post whatever you want. In fact, I'll even vote that the T'lan Imass page should be deleted. I really look forward to this. Did you find the term 'fancruft' on the Wikipedia projects page too? Incidentally, I think you should have discussed your edits before making them, since many people are active on the page.


Now, first off, you have proof. I was fine letting it alone and moving on. But you felt the need to nose around and ta da! You have proof! So I'll start the clock ticking. BTW not only did I speak with Bastique, I spoke to several admins, as Bastique indicated (he was on at the time as well). That is what the Wiki chat room is for.

Secondly, even though you indicated removing the T'lan page I would ask that you please not delete it. You've done a fine job of adding content. Some I'd even forgotten about. Kudos, it is turning out to be a good page. Nicely done, so I think that we can forgo keeping your word (and I'm taking it on good faith that you are a person to actually keep her word...), on this point and leave the page. I quite like it ;p

Thirdly, the term fancruft is a well-known and well-used term here at Wikipedia. Doing research, talking to admins and others gives one some knowledge on such areas. And lastly... In case you hadn't noticed, I did discuss it first on the talk page. Yes I did edit it then immediately thought better of it and reverted it. Contrary to your opinion, I'm not here to ruffle feathers, but to improve the Wikipedia pages. So rather than cause undue friction I posted on the talk page and let the thing take its course. I, like anyone else have every right to edit; I could have added a template or two, even a dispute template. Again not wanting to cause friction I only added my points and allowed people to take it from there. So I'll expect a WLU free week! :) Cheers!--Mystar 21:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

This issue between Mystar and WLU seems pretty off-topic, so if anyone has anything further to say about it, could you please take it to personal talk pages? -Captain Crawdad 22:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about!?

What about this one:

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0765316315/ref=s9_asin_title_2/104-2375336-1919139


I'll add it to the page with a 'forthcoming' tag. Do we need a reference?WLU 15:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

"The Ice Dragon" was originally in the 1980 Orson Scott Card anthology Dragons of Light and is also in Martin's collection Portraits of His Children. I'm not sure how to do it, but it seems like there should be some indication that the story has been in multiple printings since 1980. Here's a reference: http://www.greenmanreview.com/book/book_martin_icedragon.html -Captain Crawdad 16:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


Thanks, added reference, please let me know what people think and adjust if you've got a better way of referencing it. WLU 18:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SF/F?

Avt tor changed the infobox from writer to Sci Fi writer. I've only know him from ASoIaF, making him more of a fantasy author in my opinion. And he is best known for the series I think. Is there a SF/F infobox that combines both categories? I'm not going in guns-a-blazing to change it back, I'd just like it better if it acknowledged both genres. WLU 12:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

He's got more Hugos than World Fantasy awards. At any rate, no, there isn't a "Template:Infobox Fantasy Writer". I'm trying to knit together articles related to WikiProject Science Fiction. As I have said on many occasions, in organizational and marketing contexts, science fiction includes fantasy (for example, "SFWA" is the "Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America").
If people (more than one) think it would be a useful enhancement, I could figure out how to futz with the template to generalize it. Do please note that I am not a wiki template maven and so it would be time-consuming for me to figure this out. Avt tor 23:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't care enough to push for it, and your point about awards is good, tho' it does miss out on his most recent success w/ASoIaF. Please don't spend time on the template on my account. WLU 00:29, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia section

I reverted the recent edit of making the trivia section invisible. Looking at the wikipedia guidelines on trivia, it looks like trivia sections are only considered a real problem when they get too big and sloppy. The current trivia section has only two points with references, so I don't see it doing any harm. If someone has an idea as to how to work points into the rest of the article and get rid of the section, that's fine, but making the section invisible seems counterproductive, since fewer potential editors will see the section. -Captain Crawdad 17:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I think both examples here can easily be integrated in the article- the "Fan relationship" section can and should discuss his origins in fandom (including the FF letter as an example), and the bit on computer setup can be in the bio until/unless there's a separate discussion of writing methods (I know there's some SSM material on this at Westeros). I think the current trivia section is problematic for the reason stated in the guideline- people see these, they and random stuff to them, and you get an ugly list. It's one of those slow Wiki processes you don't often notice happening. Brendan Moody 19:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm with Mr. Moody on this one. I was going to do something about it earlier, but I couldn't think of a good way to integrate the trivia into the article. You could put that letter into his published works you know :) The computer bit could probably go into the "In 1996 Martin returned to writing novel-length stories..." section. Perhaps "Writing on a DOS-based machine to avoid viruses, worms and other problems, Martin returned to..." WLU 21:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Alrighty, I gave it a shot myself. I ended up added both points into the bio section. I added a new opening paragraph featuring the FF letter, since, according to the reference, it actually lead to him becoming interested in writing. The computer bit I added to the end, and gave the paragraph more of an "other activities" topic. I'm not so sure it really fits. -Captain Crawdad 22:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I give it a thumbs-up, good job Crawdad. I think the letter goes really well in the first paragraph. The only thing that I object to is the fairly long quote, though not strenuously enough to do anything about it. WLU 22:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
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