Talk:Genpei War

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[edit] High importance

This war is essential to the narrative of Japanese history. It marks the beginning of the samurai as a major force, and in fact as the ruling class. The beginning of the Kamakura shogunate was the beginning of military rule, and the suppression of Imperial power which lasted for over 600 years. I shall endeavor to not assess my own articles, but I'm not sure if I can expect a passing editor to recognize the importance of this event... though I suppose it's probably mentioned somewhere in the article. LordAmeth 15:57, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I have moved this article to "Top" importance. Admittedly, it's not as all-around important or well-known as, say, World War II or Napoleon, but I'd argue that it is as important and well-known within the field of Japanese history as the American Revolution and Civil War are within US history. LordAmeth 22:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ...

Like I said, I'm going away tomorrow for 2 weeks, but I should be able to do some translation from French Wikipedia's featured article on this topic when I get back. If anyone else wants to steal my thunder, go right ahead, but I will be forced to destroy you all;). elvenscout742 22:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I have added section stubs, mainly as a Note to Self of where I would like to expand, based on the guidance of the French version of the article. My French is nil, but my knowledge of the subject is good enough, and the language is just barely similar enough to Spanish and English that I think I'd do alright with converting the information. But I shall give ElvenScout a chance first to come back from his little break and to do what he said he would. If anyone else steps on either of our toes, I will destroy you. Thank you, and have a nice day. LordAmeth 00:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Look at it this way. Some of the international consequences of the Genpei Wars were that if they established the Samurai class as a ruling power, it also might have kept them in Japan for more than 400 years and allowed the Mongols, and later the Chinese to dominate much of East Asia and probably permitted the Koreans and any evidence of their existence to survive. Imagine spending time and money to assemble men, weapons, horses, etc. for an expedition to the mainland only to have your home base seized by one of your fellow Samurai.
As for it not being quite as important as other wars, remember that much of history like politics, is local. In the United States, we had our Civil War in the 1860's at the same time the Chinese were having their own. The conservative estimate was 20,000,000 dead, but it wasn't anyone over here knew or cared about.
Cheers. Xodmoe 20:21 October 13, 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I am very confused as to what you are talking about. I am a Japanese studies major focusing on the Genpei War, so I do understand the events being discussed. But you say "if they established the samurai class as a ruling power..." - they did. The samurai were the ruling class for nearly 700 years; there's no "if". The Mongols (the Yuan "Chinese") did dominate most of Asia, so there's no "if" there either. And Korea, in case you had not noticed, does very much still exist, with its own vibrant and unique culture, and South Korea is actually growing rather prosperous. If you want anyone or anything to blame for Korea's current problems, blame Communism. That's had a much more powerful and more recent effect on Korea than anything else.
As for your "imagined" scenario, I don't think most Japanese ever had much desire to attack the mainland, nor were there nearly any who believed they could. Hideyoshi failed if you remember, and failed miserably.
History may be local, but certain events are global, such as Napoleon and World War II. A very significant portion of the world was affected directly by World War II, and by the Mongols, and by Western colonialism/imperialism in general. So to say that the Taiping Rebellion and Genpei War are less important than World War II in the global grand scheme of things is really a direct fact; doesn't mean that these events are any less important within the context of China and Japan respectively. Just as the American Revolution, Norman conquest, and French Revolution had no direct effect upon China and Japan, so the Genpei War had no direct effect on anyone outside Japan. You can pose butterfly effect style counterfactuals until the end of time if you would like, but looking purely at the facts, and considering events within their contexts is what history is really about. LordAmeth 23:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
"I am a Japanese studies major focusing on the Genpei War, so I do understand the events being discussed."
I don't think I implied that you didn't understand them.
"But you say "if they established the samurai class as a ruling power..." - they did. The samurai were the ruling class for nearly 700 years; there's no 'if'."
Since you're a studies major, you should know the answers to these next questions better than I would: Who, other than the Samurai dominated Japan before the Genpei Wars?
...and why didn't you offer any remarks or details about them?
If anything, the important consequences of the war were the establishment of a feudal system along with the resulting absence of a clan strong enough to impose military authority over the rest of Japan until Nobunaga, the weakened status of the Emperor and his court, and the victory of the Minamoto clan (which was later undermined politically by Taira descendants).
"The Mongols (the Yuan "Chinese") did dominate most of Asia, so there's no 'if' there either."
In that regard, I did not suggest an "if".
Also, the term "Yuan" was originally used by the Chinese and Chinese-speaking Mongols to refer to the Chinese portion of the Mongol Empire. It did not extend as far as their empire in Central Asia, Cambodia, or probably Korea.
Furthermore, it is not accurate to refer to the Mongols as "the Yuan 'Chinese'" as they never were Chinese any more than Armenians were Russians.
"And Korea, in case you had not noticed, does very much still exist,..."
In that regard, I did not insinuate that Korea does not exist. You need to calm down.
"...with its own vibrant and unique culture, and South Korea is actually growing rather prosperous."
You're jumping rather far ahead. At the end of the Genpei Wars, the Minamoto were able to win the war, yet not dominate or dictate (...somewhat like the US in Iraq). As a result, the Koreans were spared an invasion from Japan at that point. Granted that historians should avoid excessive conjecture, but Korean civilization would have suffered worse from a Mongol-Japanese war on the peninsula than mere Mongol or Chinese colonization.
"If you want anyone or anything to blame for Korea's current problems, blame Communism. That's had a much more powerful and more recent effect on Korea than anything else."
We're not really discussing the Genpei Wars anymore, are we?
"As for your "imagined" scenario, I don't think most Japanese ever had much desire to attack the mainland,..."
Have you ever noticed how relatively small Japan is?
Has it occured to you that most of the population has always needed to live along the coastlines as most of the inland prefectures are mostly hills and mountains unsuitable for settlement?
...and that they never had a lot of natural resources? ...or native technology?
Also, remember that they were Japanese dominated by warlords, not Athenians debating the invasion of Sicily. Thusly, attacking the mainland was never decided by "most Japanese". The idea of westward colonization had to occur to certain key decision-makers of the day.
"...nor were there nearly any who believed they could. Hideyoshi failed if you remember, and failed miserably."
...a little before my time, though I do recall reading about it on Wikipedia.
"History may be local, but certain events are global, such as Napoleon and World War II. A very significant portion of the world was affected directly by World War II, and by the Mongols, and by Western colonialism/imperialism in general. So to say that the Taiping Rebellion and Genpei War are less important than World War II in the global grand scheme of things is really a direct fact; doesn't mean that these events are any less important within the context of China and Japan respectively."
My original point was that "much of history is local", that is by example, historians in the UK are reasonably certain that their readers will probably be more interested in the Battles of Trafalgar or Waterloo than the sieges of Atlanta or Vicksburg.
"You can pose butterfly effect style counterfactuals until the end of time if you would like, but looking purely at the facts, and considering events within their contexts is what history is really about."
Excuse me, but what did Communism have to do with the Genpei Wars? Was that supposed to be you looking purely at the facts?
There is more to history than names and dates. We get to learn about knowledge, beliefs, needs, and desires - motivations, as in the ones decisions are based on. We explore actions and inactions as a result of those motivations.
...and we discover the consequences of actions, but we also speculate, especially when we might not know all the facts. Not all motivations are quite as obvious or even apparent as others. Not all consistent evidence is conclusive evidence. Besides, if you already knew everything about everything, why bother studying anything? Your capacity for imagination is there for a reason.
As for me, I offered a hypothesis regarding the possible consequences of the wars that might well have extended beyond Japan. Over time, you'll realize that no one has a monopoly on the "facts" and that "context" can end up being rather subjective.

Xodmoe 20:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In-development

I of course do not expect that anything here is disputed or objectionable; it is simply the best template I could find for the nonce. I know it's a bit much to ask, but I would very much appreciate it if no one made any significant changes to this article before elvenscout742 or myself do. There is a certain satisfaction to be gained from working on an article on one of your favorite topics, and one you have worked on extensively in the past; I hope you can respect this, and allow elvenscout742 and myself this opportunity. If he has been busy and has not made significant contributions in a few days, I will begin to do so myself, after which I shall remove this tag and gladly welcome you all back into improving this article. Thank you very much. LordAmeth 00:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think I may have given the wrong impression: while this does interest me, as with most Japanese history and Japan in general, I would not call myself an expert on the subject. My plan was merely to translate the apparently reliable information of French Wikipedia's FA and add it to this article.elvenscout742 21:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I may have simply received the wrong impression. In any case, I'm going to do a little more work on it this weekend, unless you beat me to it, and then I'll take down the tag. Welcome back, btw! LordAmeth 11:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It would be great if you could include some mention of the Giant Enemy Crab under the 'Major Figures' section ;)
Note: I wrote the article on the French Wikipedia, but I would not call myself an expert on the subject neither. I worked very hard on this article, but I was the first surprised when it was proposed to be FA by Ceridwen. -Ash_Crow 21:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
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