Talk:Gender identity disorder

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An entry from Gender identity disorder appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 2 March 2007.
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Old talk:

  • Brandon Teena moved to famous transgendered people
  • UC says GID/TS due to possession: don't mention: not a scientific theory
  • need evidence on what proportion of doctors recommend sex change - >50%?
  • All debates up to 2003 moved to /Archive 2003, including debates on how appropriate the label gender identity disorder is and what constitues a cure for it. -- AlexR 14:56, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Links

I removed several external links, primarily because they were redundant or on a broader topic than GID. In particular, I removed the following links because there is already a link to a page with the complete text about GID in the list. The one's removed are less complete and more cluttered (e.g., ads). (1) http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/genderiddis.htm (2) http://www.mental-health-matters.com/disorders/dis_details.php?disID=46 I removed the following links because they're about broader topics (e.g., the axes of diagnosis in DSM). Even though one was labeled as about GID in the ICD, it wasn't. It was just a list of disorders including GID. Instead I highlighted how the HB-SOC includes the ICD criteria in the text for that link. (1) http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/diagnostic/axis1.htm (2) http://www.who.int/msa/mnh/ems/icd10/f60-f69.htm (3) http://www.who.int/whr2001/2001/main/en/boxes/box2.1.htm I also removed the new link to a discussion forum. It seems kind of unfair to include a single forum link when the forum it is almost completely inactive and there are many other forums with professionals and transgendered persons that should probably be listed first. Finally, I wonder if maybe we should remove the last link too (i.e., Lord Chancellor's ...). It seems to be more about politics instead of psychology. Perhaps we could put it in another article instead? ~ Katie (Sept 20, 2004)

[edit] The Rekers link

Currently, the article has the follwing link:

First of all, the article does not deal with the inclusion of GID in the DSM, but mostly with a) the story of yet another "cured" child, and b) lots of highly questionable premises and "findings".

  • The article does not distinguish between homosexuality and trans*.
  • Trans* can be either transsexual or transvestite, with no indication of the vast number of transpeople who are neither.
  • That goes with a lot of the literature cited being from the 1970s. That is akin to citing lots of literature from the '40s and '50s in an article about homosexuality. Even if it had been the only literaure available at the time (it wasn't), today articles based on this state of research ought to be used with great caution.
  • Some of the "findings" have not been replicated, namely the statement that in all children with severe GID, the father was absent. Anybody remember the very same statement about homosexuals? So, obviously, did the author. Same with the mental health problems allegedly so common in parents with GID children.
  • Some statements are extremely stereotypical, such as In pathological cases, however, children deviate from the normal pattern of exploring masculine and feminine behaviors and develop an inflexible, compulsive, persistent and rigidly stereotyped pattern. Those "inflexible, compulsive, persistent and rigid stereotypical patterns" have been used in tons of older literature about transpeople, but in most cases, they reflected only two things: The extreme frustration of doctors with patients who just couldn't and wouldn't be cured, and the doctor's expectations: If transpeople did not behave in such a way, they were often labeled as "not really transsexual" and medical treatment was withheld from them.

To summ it up: This article does not deal with the matter that are advertised in the link; I suspect that the Christian has more to do with the inclusion than content. However, if such a view needs to be included at all (in which case it should be labeled appropriately, since not exactly all Christians and Christian denominations hold similar views), I am sure there are better ones out there. Better in the sense that they at least deal with matters related to the general diagnosis of GID. It is also, seen with today's knowlege, faulty, and again, certainly there are far better articles that could be linked. The link therefore should be removed. -- AlexR 14:56, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Alex, I see your points and agree with you about the poor scholarship behind the article. I have read a great deal of the work on GID that is published in peer-reviewed academic journals. Rekers work is no worse that what I typically read. Ironically, it might even be better because he is honest about his particular value-laden version of Christianity. Most researchers who study GID seem to believe they are being objective scientists. I know we're supposed to try and be neutral at Wikipedia, which is why I have not removed this link. At the same time, even having an article about "gender identity disorder" (and re-directing "gender dysphoria" to it) legitimates the idea that there is such an illness. So maybe avoiding such a pro-GID external link would help provide a balance. If you feel it's best to remove this link, I would not object. You might wait a few more days and see if anybody else feels strongly enough about the issue to contribute to this thread? ~ Katie (Nov. 18, 2004)

I indeed did not want to remove the link without feedback, and a few days probably don't hurt. There are people out there who might care about it, and at least they can't complain if the removal was announces here. I also very much agree on your view of the article when compared to other articles; however, there are lots of better ones out there, too. However, I see no use to link to such articles, especially with an byline that announces something different. I'll remove it in a few days, therefore, unless there is a debate about it by then.
As for articles on GID etc, well, the medical diagnosis exists, whether we like it or not, and therefore merrits an article. And since the articles discusses the controvercy, too, I think it is better to have such an article and mention the controvercy than not having it, having people read other trans-articles, find out that GID exists later, and think all the other articles are wrong or at least incomplete or biased or whatever because GID isn't covered properly. -- AlexR 16:47, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Inducing gender dysphoria

There's a discussion going on in Talk:Transsexual#Another_cause_of_transexualism, which some people watching this article may be interested in. --Rebroad 13:35, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

alright people. You guys, get everything on wikipedia. Everything. It is pro-evolution, pro-gay, pro-abortion, and if anyone tries to differ from your ideas, then you erase it! The link, at least, this little link, is staying. And I don't care what you guys say, its very informative, even if you arn't a christian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.36.89.104 (talk • contribs) 22:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

And I don't care what you say, but kindly sign your entires, and am I right in assuming that you choose the wrong heading for your comment? -- John Smythe 15:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gender dysphoria vs. gender identity disorder

My understanding was that gender identity disorder has nothing to do with gender dysphoria. Gender identity disorder is what psychologists used to call effeminacy in homosexual men. Gender dysphoria is the term more correctly linked to transgenderedness. Felicity4711 07:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get that idea from? Check for example [1], [2] or [3] (results of a quick google search). "Gender dysphoria" seems to be used interchangeably. I am not aware that there is another technical term for "effiminacy in homosexual men" besides that. Do you have a source for that claim? Besides, what would "gender identity disorder" have to do with effiminacy? That is not a gender identity. -- AlexR 12:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I say the quotes should be removed from the word normal because it implies subjectivity and a pro-transgender bias. The American Heritage Dictionary defines normal as: "Conforming with, adhering to, or constituting a norm, standard, pattern, level, or type; typical: normal room temperature; one's normal weight; normal diplomatic relations."

Consequently, for a male or female for that matter to exhibit behavior consistent with the opposite sex is not normal because it does not conform with the "standard" or "typical" behavior. Anything else is a semantic game. [User:Pravknight]--Pravknight 03:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

In the DSM-II, homosexuality did have a diagnostic category - is that what you are reffering to? The main symptom of Gender identity disorder is Gender Dysphoria - the feeling of being uncomfortable with one's own assigned gender, and/or of belonging to the opposite gender.
Gender identity disorder used to have a sub-category, "Transsexual type" in the DSM-III however it is now "Gender identity disorder in adolescents and adults".
As to the effiminity in homosexual men, that is one of the proposals for the eitiology for transsexualism / Gender Identity disorder, articularly in the case of late-onset type transsexualism. It is largely discredity, in part due to the prsence of FTMs and Lesbian or Bisexual Transsexuals. It is also confusing because transsexualism arose as a medical diagnosis from the study of transvestism and homosexuals in the 19th and early 20th centuries. For some, homosexuality is considered contrary to normal gender stereotypes, and lumped in the same basket as GID.
Cheers, Lwollert 10:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mental Illness

The article makes a lot of confusing comments regarding mental illness that don't really make rational sense. The article mentions that GID might not be a mental illness because it could have physical causes, but all mental illnesses have physical causes... the brain is a physical organ. This kind of talk seems to be more of a defense mechanism on the part of transgendered people, who don't want it to be said that they have a mental disease because that implies that there is something wrong with Them rather than their bodies. This is, in fact, quite offensive to people with mental illness. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.51.219.91 (talk) 23:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

To rebutt:
    • Much mental illness has no known organic basis - in fact, all "mental illnesses" specifically excludes an organic cause for the presentation as part of the criteria - except, of course, those classified as "XXX due to an organic cause" (such as mood disorders post-stroke, for example).
    • It is true, however we have hypothesis for organic causes in some mental ilnesses, such as the dopamine hypothesis of schizophrenia, and our knowledge of how selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors affect clinical depression and anxiety disorders
    • Some mental illness is believed to be completely "psychiatric", that is, due to influences on the developing mind. I call for example here the personality disorders which present as impaired functioning, and are often considered due to improper personality and coping technique development as children
GID is a classification used mostly to talk about transsexual people, and may include some other transgender people. The argument is not so much that there is not something wrong with them (ne us) but that a psychiatric classification unnecessarily pathologises a condition that is exacerbated mostly through social structures (i.e. "But you're a WOMAN" for FTMs). It is a pity that gender dimorphisim is seen by some people with a mental illness as a mental illness, and that when we seek to define it otherwise, we offend them. But then, they (we) offend many people by our sheer insistence that we exist, so it probably can't be helped.
Cheers, Lwollert 10:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] At least questionable

I only have second hand knowledge by a psychatrist in my family, but as far as I know, Gender Identety Disorder is a state in wich a people is mentally suffering because of his gender identity. Not the Gender Identety is the disorder, but the persons strugle with it. These people are suffering from a disorder that needs treatment. Non-heteronormative people, who don't feel their gender identity is a (psychological) problem for them are by that definition not affected by GID and therefore in no need of treatment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.64.122.11 (talk) 18:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

  • According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Gender Identity Disorder *is* a recognised psychiatric disorder. A diagnosis requires "clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning", in other words, it's a disorder which causes significant distress - Alison<talk> 19:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
This is running into the problem of "what is transsexualism", "what is Gender Identity Disorder" and "What is Gender Dysphoria".
Gender dysphoria is the Symptom of unhappiness with one's assigned gender. This is rarely encountered by Cisgendered people (which is perhaps more accurate than heteronormative). Transsexualism is the term introduced by Harry Benjamin in regards to people who wish to change their bodies in order to be/represent/pass as (depending on your point of view re Sex Reassignment Surgery) the opposite sex as their biological one. Gender Identity Disorder is a psychiatric classification introduced in the 1970s to include children, adolescents and adults who are not cisgendered, that is show gender behavior different to their assigned gender, or display the wish to be recognised as the opposite gender, or in the case of GIDNOS, something even vaguer relating to a "Disorder" of gender.
Even though someone may think they don't have a disorder, the classification still remains. You can not have a problem with being transsexual, but as long as you have feelings of belonging to the opposite sex, which are more or less continuous over 2 years, are not intersexed, and are impaired in your functioning in your assigned gender, you pretty much qualify under the DSM-IV. Acceptance of the state does not make it comfortable. The point of the DSM is, of course, more for having a set of criteria for equivalent research rather than just for diagnosis, so the idea is that is is independently assessed by the psychiatrist, not the patient.
Cheers, Lwollert 01:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Correct! Very well put indeed. GID (302.85) is a psychiatric classification and doesn't imply much more than that. - Alison☺ 01:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
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