Talk:Gediminids
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The Jagiellons were a branch of the Gediminaiciai (Giedyminowicze), a dynasty which had ruled in Lithuania long before they came to Poland. I wonder if we should move this article to Gediminaiciai or create a separate one. I'm for the former solution, buy I want to hear other people's opinion. -- Kpalion 16:12, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Lepiej stworzyc odzielny, Jagiellonowie to "samodzielna" dynastia. Kazda dynastia wywodzi sie z innej lub szlachetnej rodziny, skladajac je wszystkie w kupe, wyladujemy u Adama i Ewy ;) --Emax 18:30, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Jeszcze jedna sprawa, czy symbol Gedymina byl symbolem polskich Krolow? Z tego co wiem Wladyslaw uzywal, ze tak to nazwe, (bo nie wiem jaka jest oficjalna nazwa) "krzyza" ktory jest obecnie na tarczy w Pogoni, ale nie slyszalem o tym by on lub inny Jagiellonczyk uzywal herbu Gedymina?--Emax 18:30, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I understand the Jagiellon dynasty is a branch of the Gediminaičiai dynasty. The Jagiellon dynasty is associated with Poland and then the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth after the Union of Lublin in 1569. Before the Union, Poland and Lithuania were politically separate, although they sometimes coincidentally had the same rulers due to "inheritance" of the throne, but sometimes they did not have the same rulers. Even if the rulers were the same, sometimes the dates of reign were different. Some of the Polish Kings in the Jagiellon dynasty before the Union, such as Ladislaus III and Jan Olbracht (John Albert), were not rulers in Lithuania. The Gediminaičiai dynasty is primarily associated with Lithuania and then the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth after the Union in 1569. Some of the Lithuanian rulers in this dynasty before the Union, such as Vytenis (relative of Gediminas), Švitrigaila, and Žygimantas I Kestutaitis (Sigismund I Kestutian), were not associated with Poland and are not mentioned in this article. Švitrigaila and Žygimantas I Kestutaitis were on the Kestutis/Vytautas (Lithuanian) side of the Gediminaičiai as opposed to the Jagiellon (Polish) side of the dynasty. My conclusion is that there should be a separate article on Gediminaičiai, which would mention those people not mentioned in this article. There should, of course, be references and links back and forth in both articles. An article in the Lithuanian section of Wikipedia already has an article on Gediminaičiai and material from there can be used to make the English version. Note the annotation on the č in Gediminaičiai when writing this article. H Padleckas 11:59, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Alas, I don't understand Lithuanian. For the start I'll put here a table of Lithuanian and Polish names of the Lithuanian Gediminaičiai and Jagiellons:
| Lithuanian | Polish |
| Butegeidis | ? |
| Būdvydas-Pūkuveras | Pukuwer (Litawor) |
| Vytenis | Witenes |
| Gediminas | Giedymin |
| Jaunutis | Jewnuta |
| Algirdas | Olgierd |
| Jogaila | Władysław Jagiełło |
| Kęstutis | Kiejstut |
| Vytautas | Witold (Witołd) |
| Švitrigaila | Świdrygiełło |
| Žygimantas Kęstutaitis | Zygmunt Kiejstutowicz |
| Kazimieras Jogailaitis | Kazimierz Jagiellończyk |
| Aleksandras | Aleksander |
| Žygimantas Senasis | Zygmunt Stary |
| Žygimantas Augustas | Zygmunt August |
--Kpalion 16:45, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I have a question to any Lithuanian speaker: is the Lithuanian name for the Jagiellonian dynasty Jogailaičiai, and is the other branch of the Gediminaičiai called Kęstutaičiai? --Kpalion 19:38, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I know Lithuanian. The answer to the above question is yes. The plural of the singular Jogailaitis is Jogailaičiai. A Jogailaitis is a family member or descendent of Jogaila.
The plural of the singular Kęstutaitis is Kęstutaičiai. A Kęstutaitis is a family member or descendent of Kęstutis. The plural of the singular Gediminaitis is Gediminaičiai.
A Gediminaitis is a family member or descendent of Gediminas. I might write this article, possibly with your help, Kpalion, when I have time, although I am somewhat busy these days. H Padleckas 00:50, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Gedimin dynasty
How about moving this article to Gedimin dynasty ? Lysy 20:31, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The Gediminaiciai were ethnically Lithuanians, so I think it is appropriate to leave this article under the existing title Gediminaiciai. English speakers are most likely to use the native Lithuanian words when referring to Lithuanians, I believe. However, you do have a point. I will create a redirect now from Gedimin dynasty to Gediminaiciai. H Padleckas 05:43, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What makes you so certain that their true ethnicity was Lithuanian? All genealogy, as well as information about where they primarily resided, indicates that they were, and regarded Belorusian, as their primary language. They even allowed Lithuanian-speaking Samogitia to be taken by T.Knights.62.78.124.222 03:50, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
-
- Well, I think that the terms Gedimin dynasty or Gediminids are more likely to be used by non-Lithuanians. Also, such a name would be in accordance with the naming of other European dynasties here in WP: Piast dynasty, Jagiellon dynasty, Habsburgs, House of Windsor and so on. All these names follow the rules of English grammar, which cannot be said of Gediminaiciai. Halibutt 05:00, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. I moved the article to the English name then. --Lysy (talk) 15:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Belsky/ Belski
I remember seeing Bielski among the descendants of Algirdas. Is it the same branch? ++ just found this (Bielski) (linked from this). Marcin Bielski ? mikka (t) 23:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC) mikka (t) 23:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
cached from [www.bg.us.edu.pl/mariusz/genealogia/rody/bielscy01.html incative page] (discrepancies w.r.t. "Bielski" ext. link above):
- KSIĄŻĘTA BIELSCY
ks. Włodzimierz Olgierdowicz (†po X.1398); ks. kijowski 1362?-1395, kopylski 1395 i słucki
* A1. ks. Aleksander (Olelko) (†1454); ks. kopylski i słucki, ks. kijowski 1441; × [22.VIII.1417] Anastazja (†1470); po nim KS. OLELKOWICZE SŁUCCY
* A2. ks. Iwan; 1422-1446; namiestnik Wielkiego Nowogrodu 1445-1446, ks. na Białej; × [ok. II.1422] Wasylissa ks. Holszańska (†p. 1484); (2°-v. ks. Michał Siemionowicz)
o B1. ks. Iwan (Janusz); × Anna ks. Worotyńska
o B2. ks. Siemion (†p. 1522); ks. na Białej, woj. moskiewski; × Irena [ojciec: ks. Iwan Juriewicz Patrikiewicz]; po nim POTOMSTWO
o B3. ks. Fiodor (†po 1506); woj. moskiewski 1499; ×1 [1481] Anna, ks. kobryńska (†II/III.1519); (2°-v. Wacław Kostewicz); ×2 [I.1498] N
+ C1. ks. Dymitr (z drugiego; *1499 †11.I.1550); × Marta Iwanówna Czeladnina [ojciec: Iwan Andrejewicz Swibłow]
# D1. ks. Iwan (†Moskwa 24.V.1571); × [8.XI.1555] Marta Wasylówna ks. Szujska (*1538 †2.X.1571) [ojciec: Wasyl Wasylowicz ks. Szujski]
* E1. ks. Wasyl (†młodo)
* E2. ks. Iwan (†młodo)
* E3. ks. Fiodor (†młodo)
* E4. ks. Anastazja (†młodo)
* E5. ks. Anna
# D2. ks. Eudoksja (†1573); × Michał Jakowlewicz Morozow (†1573)
# D3. ks. Anastazja (†24.V.1571); × Wasyl Michajłowicz Zacharin Juriew (†3.IV.1567)
+ C2. ks. Iwan (z drugiego; †1541); × ks. N Michajłówna Szczeniatiewa [ojciec: ks. Michał Daniłowicz Szczeniatiew]
# D1. ks. Iwan; × Anna Piotrowna Zacharina [ojciec: Piotr Jakowlewicz Zacharin]
* E1. ks. Jerzy (†24.IX.1612); mnich pod imieniem Galakteona
+ C3. ks. Siemion (z drugiego; †po 1542)
o B4. ks. Anna (†po 12.II.1490); × [28.I.1448] Bolesław II, ks. cieszyński (†8.X.1452)
o B5. ks. N (córka); × Iwan ks. Ostrogski (†po 1465)
o B6. ks. Jawnuta (Agnieszka) (†zapewne p. 1496); × Iwan Chodkiewicz, woj. kijowski (*ok. 1420 †ok. 1484)
o B7. [?] ks. N (córka); × Dymitr ks. Odyncewicz
* A3. ks. Andrzej (†ok. 1457); ks. na Ainie, Słoweńsku, Mohilnie, Kamieńcu, Łohojsku i Połonnym; × Maria
* A4. ks. N (Anastazja?) (†1396); × [koniec 1384] Wasyl III, ks. kaszyńsko-krośniatyński (†po 1426)
-
- There were two princely families of this name, one Gediminid and another Rurikid from Yaroslavl. I will start an article about them later this week. The former genealogy was compiled by me from Russian sources. The latter is taken by Maruisz from the standard Polish reference, Włodzimierz Dworzaczek's Genealogia (1959). --Ghirlandajo 14:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
| Lithuanian | Polish |
| Butegeidis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | ? |
| Būdvydas-Pūkuveras, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Pukuwer (Litawor) |
| Vytenis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Witenes |
| Gediminas, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Giedymin |
| Jaunutis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Jewnuta |
| Algirdas, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Olgierd |
| Jogaila, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Władysław Jagiełło |
| Kęstutis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Kiejstut |
| Vytautas, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Witold (Witołd) |
| Švitrigaila, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Świdrygiełło |
| Žygimantas Kęstutaitis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Zygmunt Kiejstutowicz |
| Kazimieras Jogailaitis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Kazimierz Jagiellończyk |
| Aleksandras, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Aleksander |
| Žygimantas Senasis, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Zygmunt Stary |
| Žygimantas Augustas, Grand Prince of Lithuania | Zygmunt August |
