Talk:Gari Ledyard

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Doesn't this theory on the origin of Hangul belong in the Korean alphabet article? --Macrakis 23:54, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

It was there originally, and is still summarized there, but was moved because people didn't feel that it had sufficient support to be treated there at length. kwami 02:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Overstatement of Ledyard's position

Several articles have contained statements like "Ledyard believes that Phagspa was the source for Hangul". Having recently read Ledyard's 1966 doctoral thesis The Korean Language Reform of 1446, I would like to correct this.

Ledard says: (p.376)

I have devoted much space and discussion to the role of the Mongol 'phags-pa alphabet in the origin of the Korean alphabet, but it should be clear to any reader that, in the total picture, that role was quite limited.

And: (p. 368)

The origin of the Korean alphabet is, in fact, not a simple matter at all. Those who say it is "based" in 'phags-pa are partly right; those who say it is "based" on abstract drawings of articulatory organs are partly right. ... It is because everybody is "partly" right that they are wrong. ... Nothing would disturb me more, after this study is published, than to discover in a work on the history of writing a statement like the following: "According to recent investigations, the Korean alphabet was derived from the Mongol 'phags-pa script..."

And finally: (p. 370)

In other words,'phags-pa contributed none of the things that make this script perhaps the most remarkable in the world.

-- Dominus 00:57, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Post hoc" explanation

The article says:

Ledyard believes that the traditional account of the derivation of the hangul consonants from the shapes of the speech organs, as described in the Hunmin Jeong-eum, is a post hoc explanation. . .

As stated, this appears to be false; Ledyard does not believe that the Hunmin Cheongum Haerye explanation is post hoc:

After the discovery of the Hunmin chong'um haerye in 1940 . . . any Korean doubts (and there had been some) over the origin of the letter shapes were dissolved by the Haerye's revelation that the letters had been designed to depict the outline of speech organs involved in the articulation of the various classes of consonants (translated above). Along with general scholarly opinion in Korea and internationally, I accept the Haerye's testimony as both convincing and authoritative. I consider it to be an unmovable rock of fact that is not only strongly documented but makes sense in its own terms. . . . Against this background, I can proceed with an investigation of 'Phags-pa and Korean letter shapes, recognizing that any conclusions must accomodate the Haerye's speech organ explanation of the Korean letter shapes.

(Gari Ledyard, "The international linguistic background of the correct sounds for the instruction of the people", in The Korean Alphabet: its History and Structure, University of Hawai`i Press, Honolulu, 1997, p.57.)

Accordingly, I am going to rewrite that part of the article to conform more closely with the facts.

-- Dominus 16:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)