Talk:Fyodor Dostoevsky

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[edit] ?Gogol as influence?

Is there any evidence of this? Gogol's writing reflects a more ontological symbolism through a fusion of the fantastic with reality. I don't feel like ANY of Dostoevsky's writing (especially late period) has this kind of symbolism; he uses exclusively epistemological metaphors in his discussions of class and religion. Not to mention their differing opinions on the contemporaneous Russian social system. If Gogol is mentioned as an influence, there needs to be some reason behind it that someone can talk about. I feel the opposite way about Soren Kierkegaard's inclusion, given his modern acceptance as the founder of Christian Existentialism, and Dostoevsky clearly discusses Christian Existentialist issues at length (i.e. The Idiot).


Gogol was HUGE for Dostoevsky. Read Poor Folk if you want proof of this, or better yet Frank's biography. Gogol must be mentioned. Also, I changed the crap about Dostoevsky having an abusive father because it's just not true; oh yes, he had them fan him while napping, the horror! Once again, read the definitive biography by Frank.


Tcallahan

His father was abusive towards their serfs though wasn't he? --TM 16:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No title

Googled "Fyodor Dostoevsky" and "Fyodor Dostoyevsky": 22,800 hits and 13,400, respectively. Hence "dostoYevsky" is a redirect. Koyaanis Qatsi

Good enough for me! On the story of his "execution", it seems to me that he was about to be hanged rather than shot, but I don't feel certain enough to change that in the article. Also I may have read somewhere that the last minute reprieve was pre-planned. Eclecticology
The execution was to be by shooting and not hanging. He didn't actually face the firing squad though - he was in the second group to be executed and the reprive came when the first group was being aimed at. You're right though that the reprieve was probably pre-planned - it wasn't all that uncommon for the Tsar to show mercy in this way for added drama.Parsley

Interesting. I don't know anything about the man's life, though I'm not averse to looking it up. Koyaanis Qatsi

I've made a couple of changes. Thus far, the only mention I've found of the exact type of "execution" was that of a firing squad, so I left that alone. It was planned ahead of time; seemingly, they hadn't intended to execute him. I have some more information that I plan on including later when I dig up my other sources. AmonZ

I've changed "Bibliography" to "Major works" because a complete bibliography would be huge and unwieldy - see http://www.kiosek.com/dostoevsky/bibliography.html. This new heading is supposed only to cover the books of his which are best known or most critically acclaimed. For this reason I removed some works, e.g. "Bobok", which I don't think satisfy either category. Of course the matter is to some degree subjective and I'm sure there are people who are better qualified than me to edit the list. Lfh

I deleted the phrase about being pardoned. In the usual English legal usage, to be pardoned is to be completed forgiven for the crime. This is not consistent with having the sentence commuted to hard labor. It's possible he was pardoned after serving some time, which would mean reducing his sentence term and restoring any legal rights lost as felon. It may also be the Russian legal system was quite different, but in any case different wording would be needed to not be misleading to English-language readers. Loren Rosen


  • Was he really devastated by the death of Maria? I seem to recall reading that it was a fairly loveless marriage after the return to St. Petersburg. Also, I think it's worth amending to make clear that the army service following his release was compulsory(i.e. part of his sentence) and his return to St. Petersburg occured only after petitioning the Tsar for permission. Parsley


Frogus: I think the sentence " (rare dissenting voices include Vladimir Nabokov, Henry James and, more ambiguously, David Herbert Lawrence)" is confusing - in what way do they dissent?? Does this mean that they have not been influenced at all by Dostoevsky, or does it mean that they claim not to have been, or just that they don't like him or what??

I have reverted the edit "Sometimes thought to be a founder of existentialism". It's far more accurate than saying he's merely an existentialist, for it's hard to see if Dostoevsky ever considered himself one. Mandel 17:34, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Netochka Nezvanova

Netochka Nezvanova links to an article about some software artist, not about the book.


[edit] Dosteovsky's Mother

I remeber reading that his mother died of Consumption, and this was the basis for so many of his female characters to have this disease. Anybody know more about this?

Well, according to the last version of this his mother died of AIDS. I just took that out, but I don't know how she actually died.

She died of tuberculosis. Consumption is an archaic term for the disease. --TheMidnighters 18:34, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Influence

The section entitled "Influence" is ambiguous and strange. It states many things, but never goes on to elucidate them, and it seems to be merely the viewpoint of the writer, rather than general critical consensus. Why, for example, and in what way, is Dostoevksy "a writer of myth" like Melville? How has he influenced expressionism? How has he influenced Kafka, Hesse or Proust? The wording is somewhat bombastic but unclear. What can - for instance - "the corrosion of human life in the process of the time flux" mean? And then there's the problematic "only Dostoyevski has engendered fully dramatic novels of ideas where conflicting views and characters are left to develop even unto unbearable crescendo". All in all, either the writer should clarify what he or she has written, or this section must be rephrased. Mandel 06:50, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. I really think the "writer of myth" part ought to be cleared up, and the comparision to Melville elaborated upon.
Half a year on, the section is as problematic as ever. Would encourage anyone to give this section a go. Mandel 00:04, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Consistent spelling?

Even though other resources may vary in the details of the Romanization of his name, I think we should pick "Dostoevsky" and stick to it rather than having it three different ways throughout the article.

Done. Sholtar | talk 03:35, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Compulsive Gambling

No account of Dostoyevski's life would be complete without mention of his compulsive gambling. One anecdote tells of D savaging Turgenev in a novel, shortly after Turgenev helped to keep the money starved D afloat. In another anecdote, D was supposed to have completed Crime and Punishment in a mad hurry in order to cash in on an advance promised D by his publisher. (Crime and Punishment, despite its obvious merit, does have something of a dime store detective novel in places, don't you think?)

I'm tempted to include some of this in the article, but I'd like to solicit reactions on how much of this is verifiable and worthwhile.. --Philopedia 6 July 2005 22:42 (UTC)

It's verified. I read the story of him getting the advance on C and P after he'd run out of money in Germany in a book for a project 5 or so years ago. Sorry it's not more concrete but I have seen repeated mention of his excessive love of gambling. I think it's worthwhile. TheMidnighters 6 July 2005 23:52 (UTC)
Dostoevsky's own obssesion with gambling led to him writing The Gambler much from first-hand experience. Mandel 05:18, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] is D's imprisonment really a turning point ?

Dostoevsky abandoned his earlier liberal sentiments and became deeply conservative and extremely religious.

This is an old saw that people keep repeating. But is this really true ? D. was not really more religious after than before his prison years ; I believe he still had doubts afterwards. The change in political ideas is more obvious, but should not be exagerated. He was not a die-hard socialist before and did not become a supporter of slavery and authoritarian government after. Am I wrong ?

--82.249.83.67 20:24, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Well if you really want to know what he himself said read "Diary of a Writer" it will make it all nice and sparkling clear.

LoveMonkey 01:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

D himself thought it was a turning point. Certainly it was for him as a writer. MEMOIRS FROM THE HOUSE OF THE DEAD was what made his reputation! ThePeg 2006

It is most definitely a turning point. Prior to Dostoevsky's imprisonment, he was essentially a Westernizer; after his release, he became a clear Slavophile. But not only that, many of the themes he explores draw heavily on his experiences with the Tsarist "justice" system. I can't even imagine what his writing would have been like without that. --Todeswalzer|Talk 12:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Short Stories

Added Dostoevsky short story section. It is important. Any summaries would be laudable. The other thing is that White Nights (a short story) has a link to a thing about Russian nights ... how do I create a new page with the same link? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by UAAC (talk • contribs) .

I went ahead and started the article at White Nights (short story). --TheMidnighters 19:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] underground a nihilist

"Dostoevsky himself, however, described his underground man as an example of nihilistic ideas taken to the extreme whose reprehensible personality is a vivid argument for the need for faith and Christ in the modern world (see the forward to the new translation by Pevear and Volokhonsky)." I own this mentioned edition as well as the book of Dostoevsky's letters. I have yet to find such a comment coming from Dostoevsky. Can anyone help? LoveMonkey 05:08, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

"Dostoevsky himself, however,"... in the context of the opening paragraph the above quote seems to argue that Dostoevsky thought his underground man not existentialist. Depending how you define "existentialism" this may be true. However, it may be helpful to refernce another major school of existentialist thought, namely Kierkegaard (Denmark 1813-1855) and Christian Existentialism, whom indeed provided a "vivid argument for the need for faith and Christ in the modern world." Also of course Kierkegaard and his philosophy were contemporary to Dostoevsky.


??????? My question is where Dostoevsky stated that the underground man is an "example of nihilistic ideas taken to the extreme". No where in the intro from Pevear is such a statement made nor is such a statement made in any of Dostoevsky's letters to his brother Micheal. From the intro itself Pevear stated that Dostoevsky never went back even though he had the option and changed back whatever censor or edits that Russian censor applied to Notes From the Underground. As for Existentialism- I personally think no one even mildly sane would try and deny that Notes is THE manifesto of Existentialism and is also the first piece of fiction to be Existentialist. Taxi Driver the movie or not. LoveMonkey 15:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Please come here and talk whomever posted that Dostoevsky stated that the Underground Man was a nihilist. Please. Pretty Please. LoveMonkey 14:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] atheistic socialism

Can anyone post where dostoevsky stated that he was critisizing atheistic socialism and not socialism? Please show me where dostoevsky made such a distinction. In his words, works writings. LoveMonkey 01:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

There's a scene in the brothers karamazov where Ivan and the monastery priests are debating about the role of the church in government. One of them mentions that the aristocracy of France is not afraid of atheistic socialists, but christian ones. I don't know if D. agreed with that, or if it means he preferred one system over another, but it's related to what you were saying.Silvdraggoj 18:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think anyone interpreting Dostoevsky through his novels needs to be especially careful, since virtually all of them are highly polyphonic. After reading all of his major novels, however, it is my opinion that Dostoevsky wasn't just against "Atheistic Socialism," but all forms of it. His concern was that socialism threatened to rob the individual of free choice: by claiming that utopia was possible, socialism advanced the notion that all human actions could be reduced to "rational self-interest" and that the government had but to scientifically determine what that self-interst was and then apply it on a massive scale. This is an argument that I think he makes especially well in "Notes from Underground." His problem with atheism as being essentially "non-Russian" just made this version of socialism that much worse. --Todeswalzer 05:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biography

Something needs to be changed here. You can't label Dostoevsky an "archconservative" and you can't claim that he abondoned every liberal sentiment after he left Petrashevsky Circle. That's just ridiculous. For example, his novel "The Uncle's dream" is a scathing satire of Russian society. No "archconservative" would have ever written something like that.--Sokrat3000 22:35, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

You really must read or reread diary of a writer. Sokrat. Also you seem to have missed his letters this is from the dostoevsky fan website..

From the book.....

http://www.ffbooks.co.uk/x1/x5924.htm

Letters of Fyodor Michailovitch Dostoevsky to his Family and Friends..Translated by Ethel Colburn Mayne for the Macmillan Company.

From the Reminiscenses of A.P. Milyukov 1848-1849

starting with Page 275

// Dourov's circle included many fervent Socialists. Intoxicated by the Utopias of certain foreign theorists, they saw in this doctrine the dawn of a new religion, which one day should remodel the world on the basis of a new social order. Everything that appeared in French on the question was discussed hotfoot by us. We were always talking about the Utopias of Robert Owen and Cabet, but still more, perhaps, of Fourier's phalanstery, and Proudhon's theory of progessive taxation. We all took an equal interest in the Socialists, but many refused to believe in the possibility of practically realizing their teachings. Among these latter was, again, Dostoevsky. He read all the works of the Socialists, it is true, but remained wholly sceptical.

Though he granted that all these doctrines were founded on noble ideas, he nevertheless regarded the Socialists as honest, BUT FOOLISH, VISIONARIES. He would say again and again that none of these theories could have any real meaning for us, and that we must find our material for the development of Russian society not in the doctrines of foreign Socialists, but in the life and customs, santified by centuries of use, of our own people, in whom had long been apparent far more enduring and normal conceptions than were to be found in the Utopias of Saint-Simon. To him (he would say) life in a commune or in a phalanstery would seem much more TERRIBLE than in a Siberian prison. I need not say that our Socialists -stuck to their opinions. LoveMonkey 16:40, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, it proves that he opposed socialist concepts of society but it doesn't make him an "archconservative". If someone argued fervently for the interests of the aristocracy and the upper class I'd call him an archconservative but this is surely not what Dostoevsky did. But I agree that he seems to have opposed socialism in general.
Any objection from your side against specifying the term "deeply conservative" as an opposition to nihilism and socialism (and not just atheistic socialism as you pointed out)?--Sokrat3000 21:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Frank's biography refers to Dostoevsky as a Private Second Class after his initial release from prison, and has a chapter heading 'Private Dostoevsky'. I've therefore changed his rank in the text, but do change back if you have an authoritative alternative source (translation of Russian ranks is obviously not straightforward). --Marginalistrev 17:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I've made some further changes to the biography section in line with the second volume of Frank's biography (covering 1850-9). Most should be uncontroversial, for instance date changes and a bit more detail on his marriage. Perhaps more controversial is filling out the paragraph which covers his change in beliefs, particularly the description of his 'conversion experience' in prison. I think this accurately reflects Frank's view, but there may be more recent scholarship which contradicts and / or deepens his analysis. --Marginalistrev 08:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] link

Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry

  • probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections?
please do not add this to the article, and please read the incident report before giving the go-ahead. This is spam and not link-worthy under WP:EL; the articles contain many distortions, lack citations, and contain nothing that wouldn't fit directly in the wiki article. a link to worldofbiography has been placed on over 70 talk pages by User:Jameswatt. thanks. --He:ah? 20:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Cultural references" section

It is unimaginable that anything could be less relevant to a person who wants to read about Dostoevsky than such things as the fact that a character in Family Guy reads Crime and Punishment in one episode.

It seems to me that this section should either change its name to "Pop Cultural References"; be radically changed so as to include only such cultural references as are actually in any way significant, such as the quote from Nietzsche which is already there, or, say, the fact that Freud wrote on Dostoevsky and declared him to be "not far behind Shakespeare"; or it should simply be removed.

I've been wondering about that too. I think there's precedent to split it off into its own article (there are some other similar articles like List of cultural references to A Clockwork Orange). That way the more notable references/comments (by Nietzsche, Freud) can stay on this page, and other less notable references can go to the list. Any objections? --TM 11:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and removed all pop culture references (as most are cruft, barely notable/relevant) leaving Nietzsche's comment in the trivia section. Should anyone want to see the list to create an article or whatever, the version of the article with the list can be found here. --TM 21:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Anti-Semitism" section

Doing some final exam review, and wanted to post his feelings about Jews, this is brief, but more information is at this link: http://community.middlebury.edu/~beyer/courses/previous/ru351/studentpapers/Anti-semite.shtml Perpetuated blood libel ideas in his texts. Joseph Frank calls Dostoevsky a “guilty anti-Semite.” He struggled with his opinion about Jews, but by denying anti-Semitism it seems that his ultimate feelings were not classically anti-Semitic, more-so insincere. His opportunistic anti-Semitism bolstered in his famous writings perpetuated anti-Semitic feelings in the world, for which he feels guilty for later.

[edit] Universal writers

Not really a beef to do with D himself but the list of 'universal writers' is a bit wierd. I've added Tolstoy who surely is more universally recognised now than Hugo who doesn't have much a reputation anymore internationally. Even the French aren't that sold on him now. Shouldn't Charles Dickens be included as well? He remains a universally admired author and he was an immense influence on Dostoyevsky who loved his work. ThePeg 2006

I would say: remove Hugo, possibly remove Tolstoy, and add Homer. — goethean ॐ 21:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd say remove all the examples, but leave the link to universal world authors for those who want to see some examples, and simply having the sentence read: "By common critical consensus one among the handful of universal world authors, Dostoevsky has decisively influenced twentieth century literature, existentialism and expressionism in particular." This leaves the debate to who qualifies as a universal world author to its respective article rather than here, where the examples don't serve much of a purpose anyway. --TM 13:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Fyodor Dostoevsky

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 16:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I've done a cleanup of the biographical section of this article: Wikifying it, copyediting it, and stylediting it for NPOV. Someone with a better grasp of literary theory than me needs to have a go at the works & influence section. At the moment it reads like an essay or a review and is not suitable for an encyclopedia, though there is a fair bit of interesting information. Could definitely do with some more references throughout, too. I've marked a couple of specific places, which I hope is helpful. -- TinaSparkle 18:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation

For the citation regarding Notes From Underground "http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/dostoevsky.shtml"

[edit] "anti-semitism"; shouldn't there be more about it?

I just started reading "Summer in Baden Baden" by Leonid Tsypkin which deals (in part) with Dostoyevsky's anti-semitic ideas. So, I looked up the Dostoyevsky page and I was surprised not to find even a reference to them. Even Tsypkin himself was bewildered as to the roots and character of these ideas so I wasn't really expecting to find any useful information or conclusions. But, I mean, it seems really problematic to me to have a biography of Dostoyevsky that doesn't at least mention the fact that he wrote about Jews using particularly horrendous language. And also maybe refer the reader to the Tsypkin book and the Susan Sontag introduction which provides some context.

Seiky 02:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

"Particularly horrendous" language? Do you mean that statement in the context of our times, or his? I of course make no attempt to excuse any kind of discrimination, but I don't find his representation of Jewish people to be much worse than anyone else who lived in the same time and place as he did. As such, I don't think it warrants any extensive exploration here. If we want to apply our moral standards to those who lived 150 years ago then we'd have to have a section on Lincoln's page expounding his racism, since he "certainly didn't think" blacks were in any way equal with whites. On the other hand, someone like Richard Wagner most definitely warrants such a section. Was Dostoevsky even remotely close to Wagner in terms of their views of Jews? I hardly think so.
Let's keep everything in context here. --Todeswalzer|Talk 13:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hypergraphia

This article [1] claims that Dostoevsky suffered from Hypergraphia -- a brain disorder giving a constant impulse to write. Somebody should add it to the article, but I dont have the time to fit it in somewhere. Robinoke 00:46, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction in the Early Life Section

3rd paragraph: "many people make the error of assuming that the father figure in The Brothers Karamazov is from Dostoevsky's own father. In fact, letters and personal accounts show that they had a fairly loving relationship."

4th paragraph: The figure of his domineering father would exert a large effect upon Dostoevsky's work, and is notably seen through the character of Fyodor Pavlovich Karamazov, the "wicked and sentimental buffoon" father of the three main characters in his 1880 novel The Brothers Karamazov.

I don't know which, if either, is correct but it can't be both! Cyclopsface 08:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I was just about to post the same contradiction. It seems pretty obvious that it was written by two different hands. It would be great to have citations that support each assertion, mainly the first one, which seems to be against the common "assumption". Nazroon 08:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kierkegaard as influence

In spite of similarities in their themes, do we have any evidence that Dostoevsky ever read Kierkegaard? Prometheus912 11:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What happened to the portrait?

What happened to that wonderful portrait of Dostoevsky and why was it removed? --Todeswalzer|Talk 12:54, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It looks like it's back. - Throw 05:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influenced by ??

I wonder if I'm the only one to be a bit bemused by the list of people said to be "influenced by" Dostoyevsky? I'm not usually comfortable with the inclusion of such a list anyway; it usually turns out to be a means by which people who admire a lesser talent seek to give their chosen hero more status than they deserve by linking his or her name to a greater one, on very flimsy evidence. And in an article on a particular artist, the names of the people who influenced him are surely vastly more important than a list of people who once read a book of his.

But even given those reservations, this list is downright silly - if Bob Dylan has created any monumental works of literature, I've somehow overlooked them. Unless anyone objects I'm intending to clean the list out. --Stephen Burnett 13:10, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

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