Talk:Fustanella

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Do you still have queries about fustanella's?

Here is a heated argument's page on "men in skirts",

or more likely "who were the men who wore their skirts first".


Modern foustanella probably originated in what is now southern Albania, where a substantial Greek minority still lives.

Be full aware of Greek chauvunist written, when mention southern Albania and saying what is now southern Albania then mentioning the Greek minority who's existing are not clear before 1900s, the claim become that the kilt originates from the Greek minority in southern Albania and then was spread over to Greece. This is very unlogical and the line I have therefore erased and for the reason that this a claim by Theathane, inveted by him, it is a untestable and untrue theory, is not just false, it's misleading. His arguments (which is invented and false) do not represent any current views of credible scholars.

look here and scrol down the Cambridge university press regarding the origin of the kilt foustanella.

frosina have a good article on the kilt also and have literature reference, see. --Albanau 02:03, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Foustanella or Fustanella?

I've checked the spelling of the word in a number of dictionaries and online, and it appears that fustanella is by far the most common spelling in English (see http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=foustanella&word2=fustanella for a comparison). I've changed the article name and spelling accordingly. -- ChrisO 10:35, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Albanian & Greek

In Greek, fousta means skirt, while foustanella means the kilt. In his last edit, Albanu seemed to say it was the other way around in Albanian. Is that true, Albanu? If so, we should add that to the Albanian etymology section at the top. So far, we have Albanian, Italian, and Greek versions of this name that are very similar. Are there any others? Maybe we should make a table of the different like they have at Count. --Jpbrenna 16:19, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm familiar with that term from Latin. Did they use the batons to beat the wool? The fustian article says the name is derived from a suburb of Cairo. And I had always thought that the Greek foustanella were made from strips of starched linen. Were/are they actually made from wool?
No idea. Just the etymology I stumbled across in my Λεξικό της Νέας Ελληνικής Γλώσσας by Γ. Μπαμπινιώτης.--Theathenae 16:43, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fustǎ (singular feminine noun) is the most common Romanian word for a woman's dress. The DEX says the Romanian word is from New Greek. There is also fustanelǎ (short white dress/skirt) in Romanian, also from New Greek. Very common words in those parts of Europe. James 007 17:07, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My source for the info added to article: American Heritage Dictionary, as well as Online Etymological Dictionary. The ultimate etymology, as you can see, is uncertain. James 007 17:23, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My Greek dictionary claims foustanella is the diminutive of foustani, "skirt" - and -ella is clearly a Latin or Italian diminutive. If fustanella itself (not just fustagno) is in fact not Albanian or Greek at all but Italian, perhaps the Italians themselves introduced the garment (or at least the fabric) to southern Albania? Just a thought.--Theathenae 17:59, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The part about the dimunitives is true, and I consider the second part very likely. I'm all in favor of the "Originated in ethnically mixed region of what is now Southern Albania, original wearers impossible to determine" option. We could add "...name probably derived from Italian" to that. --Jpbrenna 22:17, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Read the comments here, Jpbrenna. Being in favour of the "Originated in ethnically mixed region of what is now southern Albania, original wearers impossible to determine" option makes you either a "Greek chauvinist" (according to Albanau) or a "petty Greek nationalist" (according to Decius). Don't say I didn't warn you.--Theathenae 22:26, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and it also makes you "lame", even if you can walk perfectly well.--Theathenae 23:03, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Nobody said you were lame, just the edit war. Speaking of lame, I just got done editing a Star Trek article in Latin. Time to get away from this computer and go for a jog. Αντίο! --Jpbrenna 00:20, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Apparently Albanau made a mistake, maybe just swapped the places of the words accidentally. The kilt is actually named: (një) fustanellë (undeterminate form) fustanella (determinate form of the noun in Albanian), while the dress is called fustan, ((një) fustan / fustani in both it's forms). Also looked up the Italian translation in the Garzanti Dictionary. Found out that it was fustanella too (no o), but the names for skirt or dress are very different, respectively gonna and abito. Jonosphere 22:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The national costume of Greeks - Albanian origin

The Greeks have adopted the national costume of the Tosks, and is not as Theathenae try to imply that the modern fustanela originates among the Greek minority in southern Albania. --Albanau 18:11, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't know who originated it, but the article should also carry the category:Albanian clothing. James 007 18:24, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I like the new edit: The modern fustanella originated in southern Albania, and I'm willing to accept in the article. --Albanau 18:32, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Theathenae have now gone crazy and wrote insteed: The modern fustanella originated in the Ottoman territories of what is now southern Albania. This not NPOV cause it was written by him to misslead readers! The land that is today Albania was controlled by the Ottoman Empire from 1385 until 1876. --Albanau 19:00, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Albanau

It strikes me as particularly odd that a Kosovar Gheg like Albanau would be so insistent on the "Tosk" origins of a cultural artifact to which he has no connection as he is not even from Albania, let alone multiethnic southern Albania. Considering the prevailing Kosovar Albanian attitudes towards ethnic diversity, I can only think of Pan-Albanianism rearing its ugly head yet again.--Theathenae 18:36, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A Lame edit war

I direct your attentions to this article: Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars ever. James 007 19:03, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This seemed like a perfect candidate, so I added it. Check it out! --Jpbrenna 19:52, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nice one Jp. I also like that overview that you gave of the situation. ;) James 007 19:55, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hey Albanau, doesn't User:Theathenae seem suspiciously like a Greek propagandist, though he/she claims to be an Aromanian (and maybe also an Arvanite)? For example, I'm pretty sure Aromanians should also have the words fusta and fustanella in some form, but he/she has been curiously silent regarding them... James 007 19:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's a rather petty remark, Latin Lover. I have both Aromanian and Arvanitic lineage, and I take equal pride in both. These groups are not self-contained universes of the Albanian and Rumanian national narratives within Greece. They have intermarried with the monolingual Greek-speakers and with each other for centuries, and have been fully integrated into every aspect of Greek life. Moreover, they have arguably contributed more than monolingual Greek-speakers to the creation of the modern Greek state. They didn't have Hellenism imposed on them; they actively and consciously pursued it. It therefore follows that the Arvanites are not an "Albanian folkgroup" as Albanau was taught in Kosovo i Metohija, any more than the Aromanians are a subset of the Rumanians. We have thrown in our lot with the fate of Hellenism, and if you don't like it, it matters little in the larger scheme of things. We will still be who we are.--Theathenae 20:07, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Interesting that you avoided my question about the Aromanian words. You are no Aromanian, I'm quite sure. You may have some on your tree, but that's not the same thing. James 007 20:13, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

With the level of Greek influence on Aromanian, it would be impossible to isolate the Greek loanwords of Latin origin from the specifically Aromanian words of Latin origin. We use both fousta and foustanella, but I cannot know if they developed in Aromanian independently of Greek. Highly unlikely and ultimately irrelevant, as everyone in Epirus wore them and used the same word for them. Dad would probably say the foustanella was Vlach or Arvanitovlach, but then he would, wouldn't he?--Theathenae 20:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
But of course, I can't possibly be a real Aromanian if I'm not Bucharest-compliant and endorsed, can I?--Theathenae 21:17, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about Bucharest. I was talking about that Greek skirt that you're wearing. It looks like Albanau has realized how lame this edit war is. James 007 21:34, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your schools were closed down in 1948. The battle for our hearts and minds ended long ago in the only way it could. They won, you lost. We belong to the enemy now. Just get used to it.--Theathenae 22:08, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I was born in Kosova 1986, five years later after my birth, 1991, me and my family moved to Sweden due to the widespread poverty and social and political instability in the region. I never attended in any school in Kosova, or any school that teached the Albanian language here in Sweden . At age of 14 I've went to an Albanian institution in one of the city I lived in before. There I've came in contact with L'Houngan and other's such as Ullmar Qvick (today the most respected swedish author on Albanian studies.) This two people had travelled alot in Albania during the time when it was under communism regime, they told me some very intresting stuff about Albania and the Albanian people. From there arouse inside of me a strong interest on Albania, since then I have become more serious in Albanian studies and Wikipedia have help me to improve myself dealing with neutrality. Unfortunately the english wikipedia have become the nationalist Bible and here is nothing to learn about neutrality anymore, people like you Theathenae are nationalist editors that are damaging the project. I've know your IP-adress is 211.28.182.244, look also here http://sv.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=211.28.182.244 here]. In the swedish wikipedia your name is Arvantís. You are a Greek living in Sweden, i've know that, you have tried to edit swedish articles about the suliots, arvanítis and many others but the administrators in swedish wikipedia are so good in dealing with nationalist like you, they restored the text. Is that why you dealted the interwiki link on the article here. I've let the template NPOV on the article Arvanites and Arvantic since they are written from your point of view. When you misrepresent academic opinion we have every right to revert you. Above you mention Aromanian and compare them with Arvanites, you are of course the right of your point of view on the talk page but not on the article. here you have delated the line are a people of Albanian origin from central Albania that settled in various Greek lands during the Middle Ages and change it to are a people originating in central Albania that settled in various Greek lands during the Middle Ages. Arvanites means Arbanites which simply means Albanian in old Albanian language, Arber or Arban is basicly the same thing, in Albanian language often does turn 'e' and 'r' into 'a' and 'n', for example Zeri or Zani means voice. Another thing, in the article Arvanitc you even mentions the language as 'Indo-European language originating in the Balkan peninsula' rather than specifying that it's a varitey of the Albanian Tosk and that it's orginates from Albania, which should have sounded an alarm bell in others mind, like Decius if he have read the article. You cannot claim Theathenae that Arvanites are Greeks, a pure Arvanítis is a pure Albanian, they have no Greek origin they have a Albanian origin those who haves Greek origin are not pure Arvanitis but Greek-Arvanit. --Albanau 02:38, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The reason I make a distinction between the Arvanites and the Albanians is that the Arvanites themselves do not identify as Albanians, and in fact would consider the term highly offensive. Much like the 50 million Americans of German ancestry do not identify as Germans today. The Arvanites arrived in Greece well before the advent of your style of Albanian nationalism, so asking them to identify with your cause is rather futile. The only nation they have known in modern times has been the Greek nation. Indeed, rather than welcoming them as "brothers", the Arvanites of Attica display particularly xenophobic attitudes towards the throngs of illegal Albanian immigrants. And Arvanitic itself is barely 50% intelligible with Tosk, hardly enough for it to be classified as a mere dialect of it. It is completely unintelligible with Gheg. Finally, your mention of the word "pure" in relation to ethnicity is itself enough to exclude you from Wikipedia.--Theathenae 08:55, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Whole Point...

Of the lameness thing was to inject some humor and get everyone to step back, take a deep breath, have a laugh and possibly come back to the table more relaxed to hammer out a better article. Obviously, it didn't work ;) --Jpbrenna 20:23, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Keep reverting here fellas. I'm going to focus on getting United States Army Air Force moved to United States Army Air Forces, the technically correct name. I don't consider that a lame name debate, since there was only officially correct name, even though numerous colloquial ones were employed. But then again, no partcipant in a lame edit war ever considers himself an "unlawfully lame combatant," even when he is one. --Jpbrenna 20:27, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I wouldn't joke about Iraq if I were you, Yankee Doodle ;)--Theathenae 20:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You forgot Poland (not to mention Romania), who also deployed troops there. Look, as long as the US & other troops are there, everyone can unite and focus on shooting at Yanks & assorted Crusaders instead of shooting at each other. It's called a "peacekeeping" mission. It's sort of like the ancient scapegoat of the Hebrews, onto which the people could unburden their sins (or in this case, the excess ammunition contained in their AK-47's). In fact, that's exactly why GW & Condie Rice sent me to this forum. Psst, over here! Everybody top fighting and focus on getting the American! Here I am, catch me if you can! <scampers away> --Jpbrenna 20:58, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Origins

I have to say guys, the earliest evidence of the Fustanella is not Southern Albania, but 5th century BC Slovenia, evidenced here. Another one was found in the outskirts of present day Durres. picture here. We dont find it in "Northern Epirus" until the 2-4th century AD[[1]][[2]] Considering the fact that Fustanella is a latin term, this very much supports the idea that it originated in Northern Illyria and spread southward seeing that Romanization played a big role in northern Illyria. According to Encyclopedia 1911 states; The picturesque national costume, which is derived from the Albanian Tosks Or a University study which states; "Albanian warriors introduced the foustanella" into the Peloponnese region.

Also has anyone read Lord Byrons memoirs which states;

The Albanians, in their dresses,(the most magnificent in the world, consisting of a long white kilt', gold-worked cloak, crimson velvet gold-laced jacket and waistcoat, silver-mounted pistols and daggers,)

or his poem

"Childe Harold's Pilgrimage" (1812)

LVIII.

The wild Albanian kirtled to his knee, With shawl-girt head and ornamented gun, And gold-embroidered garments, fair to see:


Also, note that the fustanella has also been used by Arberesh of Southern Italy. Whom have not been in Albania for over 5 centuries. Tpilkati

[edit] fustanella in albania

""""It strikes me as particularly odd that a Kosovar Gheg like Albanau would be so insistent on the "Tosk" origins of a cultural artifact to which he has no connection""""

Actually the fustanella was used in North Albania too, and even by Montenegrin Albanians. There is countless of old pictures to prove it. Just Ask.

""""They have intermarried with the monolingual Greek-speakers and with each other for centuries""""

Not as long as you think according to Encyclopedia Britannica 1911[3].

""The Christian Albanians have long lived on good terms with the Greeks while retaining their own customs and language and rarely intermarrying with their neighbors. They played a brilliant part during the War of Independence, and furnished the Greekswith many of their most distinguished leaders.""

""Like the Albanians, the pastoral Vlachs seldom intermarry with the Greeks; they occasionally take Greek wives, but never give their daughters to Greeks""

""""They didn't have Hellenism imposed on them""""

Mostly true I think, but a little note:

Vlachs:

""Owing to their deficient intellectual culture they are regarded with disdain by the Greeks, who employ the term j3M~os to denote not only a shepherd but an ignorant rustic.""

Albanians:

""The process of their Hellenization... has been somewhat slow; most of the men can now speak Greek, but Albanian is still the language of the household. The Albanians, who are mainly occupied with agriculture, are less quick-witted, less versatile, and less addicted to politics than the Greeks, who regard them as intellectually their inferiors. A vigorous and manly race, they furnish the best soldiers in the Greek army, and also make excellent sailors.""

""""The reason I make a distinction between the Arvanites and the Albanians is that the Arvanites themselves do not identify as Albanians, and in fact would consider the term highly offensive.""""

You can make that very clear by adding a few lines and explaining the current situation. But to change the truth of where they came from does not serve that purpose.

""""The Arvanites arrived in Greece well before the advent of your style of Albanian nationalism, so asking them to identify with your cause is rather futile.""""

Where exactly in the articles of Wiki is anyone asking them to identify with this famous "albanian cause"??? They are just saying a simple matter of fact about their origins. Its not like those propaganda magazines the greek church is spreadin in North Epirus to fuel greek nationalism among the greeks there.[4]


Here is an old picture of Otto in fustanella, the turkish inscription talks about the dress's albanian influence.[5] Here is an 1881 drawing of Woodwille: Albanians of Shkodra (North Albania)in fustanella, celebrating Ramazan.[6]

[edit] Proud men in skirts

On the last revert in the beginning of the article: To the statement "Most people would recognize foustanella as Greek Army Ceremonial dress", Kastrioti indicated "not exactly true. When foreign experts refer to the foustanella, they say "the Albanian/Greek kilt" b/c apparently both countries wore it since ancient times". I believe that Wikipedia's role is first to inform and then to set the records straight. Since I (and apparently Kastrioti by replying "not exactly true") believe that most people do recognize foustanella as Greek Army Ceremonial dress (since Athens has had more tourists than Albania and they actually still wear it), I will make a last change and not bother anymore. As I noted in the beginning, this discussion on men in skirts is too much. Please note that I have made other, more important changes, (like replacing the word octopodes at the end of the article -a nice joke-) so I urge anybody who does not like some changes to modify them individually instead of reverting. --FocalPoint 17:04, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Population in the Ottoman Balkan Vilayet Yanya

A book, Defeat in Detail: The Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912-1913, by author Edward J. Erickson, regarding the population Population in the Ottoman Balkan Vilayets, 1908. source.

Greeks were not the only majority of the provinc Yanya, the other majority were Albanians and Vlachs. --Albanau 16:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The census indicates otherwise. --Telex 16:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
According to the census you cited there is absolutely no mention of Albanians, even though they no doubt would exist since the Ottoman vilayet Yanya was part of Ottoman Albania. The country was divided administratively into four vilayets, which constituted defacto autonomous units. / Albania in 1912 was inhabited by various tribes, north and south of the Shkumbin River, which were divided into four vilayets. / Albania Identities: Myth And History, page 36, page 91. There is however a mention of Muslim population, which were one of the majority populations in the province Yanya. The conclusion here is that the census, at at least when it applies to the Albanians, is divded according to religion, not by ethnos.Albanians are included in the category Muslim population, leaving Greek Orthodox and Catholic Albanians in the categorys Greeks and Others. I advise others to be careful with the interpretation of old Balkan census. I think the last sentence which is disputed and incorrect should be removed if not corrected. --Albanau 18:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
You should respect their right to self-identification. If they called themselves Greeks, they are Greeks - period. --Telex 18:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit - Change "kilt-like" to "skirt-like

The design and construction of the fustanella is more common to a skirt (single wrap) than a kilt, which is is wrapped more than once, and can be wrapped over the shoulders, as well.

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