Template talk:French dialects

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[edit] Quebec French vs. "Canadian" French

I'm a bit frustrated at how identity politics distorts linguistic reality and research, particularly in educational and informative publications. This includes some efforts in Wikipedia.

For example, it would be very pleasant and convenient if the name of a dialect and its Sprachraum were identical to political, i.e. national/provincial/state, boundaries. It would be wonderful if this were the case of Quebec French and Acadian French, neither of which are limited to the areas after which they were named. Also, there is no such dialect as "Canadian French"; all works containing the title only describe Quebec French with a micro-mention of Acadian French.

The ultimate references on the subject are listed below. I invite all to read them to witness the reality of the preponderance of Quebec French (disguised as Canadian French) and the misnomer of "Canadian French":

Robinson & Smith (1991) Dictionary of Canadian French; NTC. This work is actually two dictionaries: an exhaustive one on Quebec French (253pp) and a tiny supplement on Acadian French (13pp). It is therefore a misnomer, for it is a Quebec French dictionary with a separate, token 13 pages on Acadian French. No mention of any other dialects.

Dulong (1989) Dictionnaire des canadianismes; Larousse. Note that the term "canadianisme" is outdated in contemporary French; the modern term is "québécisme". Again, the title of this work is a misnomer. The work is actually a dictionary of Quebec French with a smattering of Acadian terms. In fact, the book relies on the Office de la langue française (now the Office québécois de la langue française) and uses an abbreviation for Acadianisms only. No mentions of any other dialects.

The mis/disinformative practice of changing "Quebec French" to "Canadian French" results in a denial of linguistic reality and research, regardless of what side of any identity-politics fueled debate. An article on "French in Canada" is totally justifiable. An article on "Canadian French", however, is not unless we want to fill Wikipedia with misconceptions, deep-seated preconceived notions, bias and disinformation. CJ Withers 03:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

That's a debate for that article then, and not this template. You're probably a sepratist, and that's why you want Quebec French listed. Ardenn 04:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that you should think that way, the more so in that I am on _no_ side of the debate and am not interested in it, either. I am a language professional and researcher in linguistics contributing facts and improving the Wikipedia articles I work on. It's your choice to ignore all that has been published on Quebec French and Acadian French, be their authors from France, Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, etc.; separatist or federalist or neutral. CJ Withers 04:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, the template was accurate _without_ the misnomer "Canadian" French. There is no such dialect, hence, it is incorrect to list it. It is very clear that Quebec French and Acadian French are in Canada; that's why it is the first word in the line. Also, you will note that I changed "France French" [sic] to "Metropolitan French" since that is what it is from a neutral perspective. There is a desparate need for an article on Metropolitan French; we'll see if there are any takers/experts who will develop and enrich it. Btw, no one outside of Canada calls it "France French" unless they are using it as an ad-hoc term, albeit stiltedly and uncomfortably, picked up from Canadian anglophones or francophones. CJ Withers 04:26, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

There is Canadian French, it's used outside of Quebec, like in Ontario and BC. Ardenn 04:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Conjecture. Unfortunate misnomer. What research and other documented facts are you basing your opinion on? Just because it's outside of the politcal boundaries of Quebec, doesn't qualify it as non-Quebec French or Canadian. In fact, the majority of French speakers in B.C. are born and bred Quebec francophones relocated to teach French or to work in some other field. Go figure.

Plus, there's no dialect difference among the half a million francophone Ontarians when you cross the Ottawa River, either from Grenville to Hawkesbury or from the new Gatineau to Ottawa. Same dialect, same Quebec French. In fact, if you look in my sandbox, the one on Quebec French, you'll see that I wrote in bold caps "SPRACHRAUM NEEDED"; the borders of the Quebec French dialect sprachraum are beyond those of Quebec the province. The obviously contiguous francophone areas of Ontario, the historical direct control of ALL francophone Catholic churches in Ontario by the diocese of Montreal (I know the area well, such as the villages of Plantagenêt, Orignal, Curran, etc.) and the lack of any evidence of an Ontarian dialect (or B.C. for that matter) only re-inforce the fact of Quebec French's continued dominance (media production, language regulation - O(Q)LF, etc.). And, here's the cherry on the sundae: my thesis advisor agrees, for it was her class that confirmed what I'd already known. Oh, she was a Franco-Ontarian from Embrun and an expert on language attitudes, perceptions and terminological research; and this person is NOT a separatist(!), as if this were a politcal issue. The only difference that could be observed in B.C. or Ontario would be a probably higher degree of bilingualism and or code-switching; then again, the same could be said about franco-anglo couples anywhere, francos on the West Island or anglos in Quebec City. Again, go figure. CJ Withers 05:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I am agree with CJ Withers. It should have two pages for the same concept. Quebec French is not exclusive to Quebec, like French is not exclusive to France. Also, the french Wikipedia redirects the "Canadian French" page to "Quebec French" and the "Canadian French" page in the german Wiki is a disambiguation page between "Quebec French" and "French in Canada". LeQuantum 18:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Is the language spoken by Franco-Manitobans Québec French? —Michael Z. 2006-11-16 17:16 Z

[edit] ... vs. Newfoundland French??? (ooh, I know who's going to lose this one!)

Hi there.

Not to stride into linguistic politics here, but I did notice that someone had gone to the trouble of at least starting an article on Newfoundland French, so I thought that I would add it to the template here. I suspect this only adds to the argument for the use of the term Quebec French rather than Canadian French - of which I support the use of the former. AshleyMorton 00:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)