Talk:Fred Hampton

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Contents 1 Rainbow coalition = ethnic nationalists? 2 Police Quotes 3 Serious Issues 4 Problems 5 No Problems 6 The Murder of Fred Hampton Documentary Link 7 The Weather Underground 8 Fred Hampton Day 9 Street sign controversy 10 Picture 11 Fred Hampton's FBI file 12 Fred Hampton's FBI file--P.S. 13 Fred Hampton's FBI file--P.S.S. 14 Citations 15 HORRIBLE SOURCES/ SUPER BIASED ARTICLE: SHAME OF WIKIPEDIA

[edit] Rainbow coalition = ethnic nationalists?

In the FBI section, Hampton's multi-racial "rainbow" coalition is referred to as an "ethnic nationalist" coalition, which seems completely inappropriate.

Thats how the FBI viewed such groups.

--Is the FBI evil? Is the FBI wrong? How so? Ethnic nationalist seems to sum it up quite well. Afterall, he was a "Black" panther, not a "Rainbow" panther! If you look up black panther on wikipedia it describes it as an ethnic nationalist movement.

In that little rant you ignore the fact that Hamptons “rainbow coalition” was primarily a coalition of like-minded Black, Puerto Rican & White inner-city groups, with the addition of student groups and a non-aggression pact with urban gangs who operated in the same territory as the mentioned inner-city groups.

[edit] Police Quotes

Who heard this discussion between police when Hampton was shot?

Also, I remain uncertain as to whether or not these quotes are A) Appropriate, condidering that they are not by Hampton. B) NPOV. Zenosparadox 01:56, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have recieved no feedback on my belief that the quotes are unnecessary. If one looks at similar pages, they are filled with quotes by their subject, not about him. Further, that they are certainly POV. I have nothing against Hampton, and recognize that this could be an important issue to some. Let me know if you disagree about the quotes. Zenosparadox 22:04, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If you consider the collection of quotes as they now stand biased, the most constructive response would be to add a quote which brings balance. -- Viajero 10:32, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Churchil is as controversial a source as you can get. Wait, no, Harold Bell, Churchill's source is even more biased. Great job on this article guys and gals way to be proffesional.

[edit] Serious Issues

I think there are some serious issues here. What is the source for the allegations about the laced Kool-Aid? The police quotes? Other than the book by Messrs. Churchill and Vander Wall (sic, but I'm suspecting it might be Van der Wall or Vanderwall), referenced at the very end, we are given no sources. Where did Churchill get his "facts?" He's a secondary or possibly tertiary source. What are the primary sources? Could we maybe have some page numbers so we can check Churchill's book? I'm not saying that things did or didn't happen the way they are presented here, but I'm skeptical, especially when Ward Churchill enters the equation. --Jpbrenna 07:10, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

1. Churchill's co-author is Jim Vander Wall.
2. The relevant pages in Agents of Repression are 69-70.
3. Primary source are court transcripts of Iberia Hampton, et. al vs. Plaintiffs-Appellants, v Edward V. Hanrahan , et al,. Defendants-Appellees (Nos.77-1968, 77-1210 and 77-1370). In particular, witnesses Harold Bell and Deborah Johnson testified to the police exchange.
4. You have a problem with Ward Churchill's scholarship?

-- Viajero 10:32, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

1) Thank you. I assumed, incorrectly, that someone had misspelled a Dutch name. I once had a teacher with a Dutch last name that was often misspelled, usually due to computer limitations. She taught me how to spell it correctly, and the lesson stuck, perhaps too well. Sorry for jumping overboard on that.

2) & 3) Thank you.

4) I don't have a problem with his scholarship per se. I have a problem with his public persona, including his false claims about his military service. When he makes a fale statement about his participation in a major armed conflict, it makes me wonder about some of his scholarship.

I want to make it clear that I am *not* disputing anything as it's presented in this article. I don't know enough about the case to do so. I'm displaying skepticism that everything went down exactly the way it's presented here. --Jpbrenna 17:01, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Two things. This article does reek of POV, and Ward Churhills scholarship is most certainly in question. TDC 23:28, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

How can his scholarship be in question in this case? He & Jim Vander Wall are citing court transcripts, if you think it is wrong then go dig up the transcripts and compare them to what is in the book rather than attempting weak ad hominins. LamontCranston 18:00, Jan 07, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

A) Fred Hampton left a son by the same name, who also became an activist and did nine years for an arson conviction, which he argues was trumped-up. Even though Hampton pere is probably the more famous, we should probably move this article to "Fred Hampton, Sr." or add a disambig tag.

B) This is still really POV. I think we need other sources besides the Churchil/Vander Wall book. What about primary sources? We could start with the 194 pp. of FBI files available on the FBI FOIA Compliance website http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/fredhampton.htm Maybe that could shed some light on what the FBI did/didn't do, know, communicate to the Chicago Police etc. Some of the names of informants and agents seem to be censored, so they still leave some unanswered questions, but it's a start.

Obviously, this is a lot to go through, especially when it's on a glare-filled computer screen and not hard copy. Still, I'd be willing to collaborate on it the next several months if some other people are willing to pitch in.--69.245.192.52 01:42, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That was me, forgot to login. --Jpbrenna 01:45, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

1. If Fred Jr. is as well known as his father, then we should consider a disamig page, such as Oliver Wendell Holmes. However, if he is not as well known as his father, custom would dictate that we should leave this page where it is and add For Fred Hampton, Jr, see:... at the top of the text. For an example of this, see: Sam Smith.
2. I am a troubled by a blanket statement like "This is still really POV"; it would be most constructive if you could be specific about exactly what bothers you. As I am sure you are aware, we use "POV" first and foremost as a shorthand to indicate that we think a controversial assertion is expressed in the narrative voice or that biased language is used. In such cases, the text can be rewritten or deleted. In this case, you don't appear to have any disagreements with the language, only the sources. Is this correct? If you feel that we shouldn't depend solely on the Churchill/Vander Wall book for the details of the police raid, such as the quotes of police officers, that's fine; I would be more than happy to go to the FOIA site and do some spelunking (as soon as I find typing this I will take a look at it). However, without wishing to turn this page into a forum to discuss Churchill, I would like to point out one thing: his book is copiciously referenced. The particular section on the police raid has something like fifty citations per page; in places, nearly every phrase has one. Now, if one had access to the primary sources he used (ie, court transcripts), it would be pretty easy to debunk the book. So far, no one has done so. Yes, I am aware there are allegations of shoddy scholarship, but given the context of the controversy, it is not (yet) fair to say that Churchill has been definitively discredited as a scholar. -- Viajero 09:21, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I doubt that the FBI can be considered an unbiased source, thought I do think it is an important part of the puzzle. For anyone intent on finding out about the assassination, there's a great documentary about it called "The Murder of Fred Hampton'. Here's an excerpt of the synopsis from IMBD:

"The remainder of the film focuses on Fred's murder including footage of the crime scene. The attacking police unit was so secret that the local precinct was not notified to clean things up after the bodies were removed. As a result the Panthers and their attorneys filmed and collected a vast amount of evidence which proved the police and states' attorneys were lying. The police and government arguments are given, interspersed with contradictory proof by the Panthers and their attorneys proving that this was not a raid gone sour, but rather a carefully planned assassination. The photo of the police smiling joyously as they carry Hampton's body out of the apartment is ominous."

24.194.239.148 23:59, 14 December 2005 (UTC)DB There's nothing here about how they're trying to name a Chicago street after him.

[edit] No Problems

I found this article to be quite balanced. It really does seem that the only problem that some people have has to do with the fact that Churchill wrote the book. While the article IS NOT POV, this complaining about Churchill certainly is POV. Check out Mumia Abu-Jamal's "We Want Freedom" for another source. But, I fear, those who would condemn Churchill will no doubt be hating on Mumia as well. --Something 04:32, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In "aftermath", not sure about "undisclosed sum." I believe I remember seeing $18,000,000 somewhere reputable.--John Z 20:38, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The lawsuit was settled for $1.8 million, as a "nuisance settlement", according to the newspaper accounts. Read my book--soon to be a movie--"The Black Messiah Murders". Shelly Waxman, J.D. See, Amazon.com. The main reference to the seconal was in The Ramsey Commission Report, entitled "Search and Destroy."

just curious, could this article be any more laudatory?

seriously. if i posted BS like that at the end of the, say, Reagan page (he was a visionary, he fought for the freedom of Eastern Europe, etc. etc.) it'd get reverted on the spot. Dr. Trey 07:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I've just reread the article, and i'm not sure what parts you think are 'laudatory' and I think you should specify instead of making blanket statements. The article closes with an excerpt from the Chicago City Council. It is part of the historical record as far as I'm concerned, meant to show how he is viewed by Chicagoans today.

24.194.239.148 00:00, 15 December 2005 (UTC)DB

i'm a chicagoan. the quote doesn't reflect my view of hampton. few people feel represented by the city council, actually. many chicagoans are fatalist about the machine politics here.

[edit] The Murder of Fred Hampton Documentary Link

I just wanted to let people who have been seeking the film and have yet to see it know that I have added a link to the documentary on the Fred Hampton page so you can view it online. Enjoy! --Nikipooh116 00:03, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Weather Underground

There's another documentary that deals with the raid on Fred Hampton's apartment, called "The Weather Underground." Mostly the documentary deals with the Weather Underground movement, but they discuss Mr. Hampton for 5 minutes or so. I mention this because, according to the documentary, the Black Panthers organized a tour of Fred Hampton's apartment right after the raid. They showed hundreds of people the ballistics evidence indicating that the police fired every shot. I was hoping someone knows more about this, because what I saw on that documentary seemed to contradict what it says on Hampton's main page, that it took a long time to get evidence of police misconduct to the public. At the very least, this tour of his apartment is an interesting piece of the story that should be included on the main page.

• • • Yes, it is true that the Black Panther Party immediately began "tours" of Hampton's apartment, much to the detriment of a thorough investigation. A certain amount of understanding can be applied here, but in allowing thousands of people to walk through a crime scene--sometimes as private investigators were trying to work--they inadvertently allowed people seeking macabre mementos to pick up valuable pieces of evidence. In fact, the coroner's office itself didn't officially seal the apartment until December 18, by which time hundreds of thousands of people had walked through it.

You're also correct in asserting a contradiction in the main page: It did not take a long time to get evidence of police misconduct to the public. In fact, the Black Panther Party was so diligent and effective in disseminating information to the public about the case, creating such a public outcry, that the State's Attorney had to arrange for his officers to stage a "re-inactment" of the raid, which was aired on CBS television. It was also public knowledge that Hampton's family did not trust the results of the first ("official") autopsy and arranged for an independent pathologist, Dr. Victor Levine, to perform a second postmortem, which was performed on December 5. The results of Dr. Levine's examination were immediately made public and were at such odds with the first autopsy that a federal grand jury was compelled to order the exhumation of Hampton's body (buried in Bethel, Louisiana, on December 11) in February 1970.

--Herkimer67 04:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fred Hampton Day

Is every Dec. 4 considered "Fred Hampton Day", or just 12/4/04?

No day is considered Fred Hampton Day.

[edit] Street sign controversy

I added this line, as I think it's VERY important to the WIkipedia article. It's a big deal, and deserves mention. -Mitch

[edit] Picture

Is a picture of Hampton immediatedly after being killed really the only/best image available to this page? Firstly, while I know a lot of people will dismiss it as "over-sensitivity," some people really do prefer not coming upon depictions of violence without some warning and/or option about it. It may be better to include that as a link, then, and not in the main body of the page. Secondly, it does nothing to show anyone what Hampton actually looked like -- the usual point of including a photo in a bio in the first place. --66.109.253.61 06:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fred Hampton's FBI file

If we are going to bother with a page on Fred Hampton, which, of course, he rightly deserves, then wouldn't it do his legacy and his sacrifice justice by being as accurate as possible? Towit:

1) Hampton had several FBI files opened concerning his daily activities, as well as those of the BPP. Three classifications were also used, making his "file" three times more in depth than previously believed. The most pertinent classifications were 44 and 157 (Civil Rights and Civil Unrest, respectively), and the most significant locations gathering information on Hampton's life were Chicago and FBI HQ. The FBI field office in Chicago opened its 157 file on Hampton on September 24, 1967. In total, the surveillance on Hampton--both before and AFTER his death--yielded in excess of 22,000 pages, which includes much of the civil lawsuit brought against Chicago authorities by the survivors of the December 4, 1969, raid. What people quote most often--regurgitate would be more accurate--are the figures of 12 volumes and 4,000 pages, which most closely resembles the size of only his Chicago field office file--which is, in fact, 12 volumes and 3,400 pages.

2) Hampton's name wasn't added to the FBI's "Agitator's Index" in May of 1968. Hampton's name was, in fact, already part of the precursor to the "Agitator's Index," the "Rabble-Rouser Index," his name officially added on December 26, 1967. The "Rabble-Rouser Index," then subsequently the "Agitator's Index," was created in August 1967, "to intensify investigation of individuals supposedly having a propensity to foment violence or racial discord" (Ann Mari Buitrago and Leon Andrew Immerman, Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been In The FBI Files? [New York: Grove Press, 1981], 201). You just might want to tell your readers that.

3)Hampton did not "work closely with the BPP's local People's Clinic" (how are readers supposed to know what a "People's Clinic" is?) because the first one didn't open until AFTER Hampton's assassination. The Larry Roberson Memorial People's Health Clinic was officially opened in January 1970, so named after the former BPP member who died on September 4, 1969, from wounds he received during a shootout with Chicago police on August 15.

4) Hampton was not successfully prosecuted on May 26, 1969, and he hadn't been arrested in 1967 for the alleged ice-cream robbery. He had ALREADY been prosecuted AND convicted on charges (robbery, battery, criminal damage to property) stemming from his July 10, 1968, arrest. Hampton was convicted by Ciruit Court Judge Sidney Jones on April 7, 1969, and was SENTENCED on May 26, 1969.

Believe me, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

I also understand that there is limited information available about Hampton's life and death, and what IS available is highly unreliable. Ward Churchill and Jim VanderWall are touted as the authorities, having read the appellant's brief and possibly some of the court transcripts. But even the lawyers handling the civil trial for Iberia Hampton, et. al, were proven to be less than accurate. But since I have been the ONLY researcher to request and receive Hampton's ENTIRE FBI file, I felt compelled to voice some concerns on this page.

[edit] Fred Hampton's FBI file--P.S.

Sorry...I am new to this and I forgot to sign my post.

--Herkimer67 20:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fred Hampton's FBI file--P.S.S.

I mistakenly stated that the first People's health clinic was named after former Chicago BPP member Larry Roberson...it was, in fact, named after another former Chicago BPP member, Spurgeon "Jake" Winters, similarly shot to death by Chicago police on November 13, 1969. So, it was the Spurgeon Jake Winters People's Medical Center that opened in January 1970.--Herkimer67 03:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You don't need to start a new topic to correct yourself, just add it in to your original thing. LamontCranston 18:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

I don't see any citations until the Aftermath section. An article this dense with facts and this controversial should have more, if anyone has any source material that they can create references with. I'll do my best but my knowledge of this subject is limited. Brad T. Cordeiro 02:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HORRIBLE SOURCES/ SUPER BIASED ARTICLE: SHAME OF WIKIPEDIA

This is perhaps the most baised, worst sourced article I have ever read. The whole police raid section, and "quotes" are so dubious it is irresponsible to leave them here. blacck Panther Mark Clark fires a round "while asleep"?????? Give me a break! the police are called "the raiders", the source for the police quote is a fellow black panther friend of Hampton's Harold Bell?????? ward Churchill is the source of this "objective" black panther quote????? This sort of propaganda masquerading as an objective article is a mockery! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.192.106.231 (talk) 20:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

I've removed the characterizing of clark as being asleep. But aside from that . . . the article already quite clearly identifies that the source of the quote is Harold Bell and it also identifies Bell as being a Black Panther associate of Hampton. The reader is given that info. It is up to the *reader* to then decide if they think the quote is therefore "dubious" or "suspicious" or otherwise lacks credibility. It is not your place to tell them it is. The reader has been properly told that the accuser is Hampton's friend, so the reader can draw their own conclusions from that. Mwelch 21:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck! I just wanted to make it more clear to some uninformed reader who might take this as God's holy truth when in reality it's as dubious and suspicious at it could get. For example, why if what Harold Bell said was true, would they allow him to live as a witness and a black panther? woudn't that be kind of stupid for these trigger-happy "raiders" to do? Not to mention who the source is. It just went on and on. the whole asleep thing, etc, etc. It's just propaganda. I think it's important to remind people that Bell was a panther and to either edit or point out the sketchiness of this whole section.