Talk:Francis J. Beckwith

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An individual covered in this article, Francis J. Beckwith, has edited Wikipedia as Truthseeker2 (talk • contribs).

An individual covered in this article, Francis J. Beckwith, has edited Wikipedia as Hunterbaker (talk • contribs).

Contents 1 Removal of factual statements, per subject's request 2 Francis J. Beckwith e-mail to the help desk 3 Categories 4 Introduction

[edit] Removal of factual statements, per subject's request

I have requested comment on this.

This is a simple factual statement that comes after an explanation of his "day job".

Beckwith is a fellow at the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, a conservative thinktank which is hub of the Intelligent Design movement.

Plus some relevant categories.

This is a simple statement of fact, it is not even approaching being libelous and fails even to put qualifiers on it (such as the fact that intelligent design is considered creationist pseudoscience by scientists).

Now perhaps that wording could be modified and improved. Of course, this is a wiki.

However, Wikipedia follows WP:NPOV. This is not the same as a "sympathetic POV". There has been precedents that the subjects of the article should not influence the articles' contents. Professor Beckwith has his own website for that. If there is a lack of information on his day job that creates a balance problem, then you should add to the article on that, not delete useful factual information from it.

His views on intelligent design are well known. He is the author of Law, Darwinism, and Public Education. He has spoken publicly on the subject [1]. I could go on... — Dunc|☺ 15:38, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

This seems basic: He's a fellow of the Discovery Institute, all of this is well documented. If a murderer emailed us and asked us to remove details of his trial from his bio due to his unhappiness with it, we would not do so. If the pope asked us to remove well-documented bits about his position on subjects we would not do it. Well documented, publicly known, pertinent facts should not be removed from a bio without more reason than "he asked us to." How did he make the request? Did he seek to correct any errors, or did he just ask that valid data be removed? If the second, did he give any reason for the request? KillerChihuahua 16:22, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

It's verifiable, factual information; it seems on its face to be relevant and consequential to a discussion of his ideas and opinions. If he feels that it gives an 'incorrect and unbalanced idea about his ideas', the correct way to deal with it is to beef up the rest of his bio. (The section in question isn't a lengthy criticism, diatribe, or attack piece–that sort of thing should almost always be trimmed, reworded, or removed outright–but rather a single sentence noting his affiliation with the Discovery Institute.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Investigating further, he denies being an ID proponent, but merely intended to explore the legal issues surrounding ID and the establishment clause and does not yet think that ID should be taught. because of a lack of research programme [2]. Nevertheless, he is a member of the IDC movement and could resign from the CDC if he wanted to. Clearly he is not in the same league as Dembski when it comes to intellectual dishonesty, and he may be scared of guilt by association. His book however is not uncontroversial though it is possible he may be arguing a position without taking that position personally. Though, as we have seen in the recent Dover panda trial, it is very wishful thinking if he thinks that the numerous links between old style creationism and new-style creationism will not be brought up in any trial. Given that he is a lawyer however, I am certain that he can put a spin on any opinions he does hold.

If this is true, it may be the case that a simple factual statement is an oversimplification, but I see no reason to remove it. Perhaps Prof. Beckwith could give us a suitable quote. — Dunc|☺ 16:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

The fact remains Beckwith is a fellow of the CSC [3], and his articles and books (of which I've read a number) have all argued for ID being legal and appropriate to teach as science. There is no shortage of evidence that Beckwith is widely recognized as a prominent supporter of ID [4], a point that could be made as an attribution in the article if it's that contentious. Clearly all this justifies identifing Beckwith as a pro-ID supporter, either as a statement of fact, something I think is easily justified, or as an attribution. Either way, the point is it's necessary for a complete and accurate representation of just who Beckwith is. FeloniousMonk 17:38, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Seems pretty clear to me. Keep.--SarekOfVulcan 20:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Francis J. Beckwith e-mail to the help desk

Professor Beckwith has sent the following e-mail to the Wikimedia Help Desk.

E-mail removed at request of Beckwith.

Capitalistroadster 06:22, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Beckwith's objections have been aired here before, and there is broad consensus that the article is factual as it stands, despite is objections. As I and others have stated here before, The fact remains Beckwith is a fellow of the CSC [5], and his articles and books (of which I've read a number) have all argued for ID being legal and appropriate to teach as science. There is no shortage of evidence that Beckwith is widely recognized as a prominent supporter of ID [6], a point that could be made as an attribution in the article if it's that contentious. Clearly all this justifies identifying Beckwith as a pro-ID supporter, either as a statement of fact, something I think is easily justified, or as an attribution. Either way, the point is it's necessary for a complete and accurate representation of just who Beckwith is, his personal wishes not withstanding. Since when does Wikipedia omit factual and relevant information based on the subjects personal wishes? FeloniousMonk 07:00, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk,

Thanks for the reply. I have removed the text of his e-mail at his request. I think if we are to classify him as such based on the evidence, we should cite that evidence both in the articles and as references in the article as an assurance to our readers that the material is soundly based. Capitalistroadster 16:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Wow, now he wanted his e-mail removed too? I'll add links to support the details. FeloniousMonk 16:03, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think our article presents the facts reasonably and draws no unsubstantiated conclusions. For the sake of balance and information, it might be worthwhile to list his other academic affiliations and organizational fellowships (the ones provided in his now-deleted email). TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:41, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I added added his fellowship at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity about 20 minutes before TenOfAllTrades posted this... GMTA. KillerChihuahua 17:45, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

Removed redlink (deleted) categories. --FloNight ^talk 13:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

Rewrote the introduction for clarity and to better explain his notability. Tried to not change the overall content. FloNight ^talk 15:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)