Talk:Fox Terrier

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Contents 1 Why called terriers? 2 Edit notes 3 Need to add the Standard Foxies 4 It's a wire-haired 5 Image of a generic fox terrier 6 Organization of Fox Terrier articles and material

[edit] Why called terriers?

Are they called terriers because they're used to terrorize the fox out of its hole? Kent Wang 11:00, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

No the Terrier part comes from the latin terra meaning earth. Steven jones 11:12, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. Do you think this warrants mention in the article? I'm not so sure of how to put it eloquently. Kent Wang 18:07, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

It's already in the Terrier article. I don't see a need to repeat it in each of the dozens of individual terrier breeds. Elf | Talk 18:57, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Edit notes

Nice edit Quill. I changed the headings from being bold text to an actual heading. You can do this by placing "==" arround the text, the benifit in actual headings is that the arcticle will have a table of contents.

I also removed the stub message as the article seems to have reached actual article status. What is still outstanding is that it doesn't match the project standards. I'm not sure if it really should though as it has become an article about the various foxies and not one specific breed. I'm not sure how we should do this from a format point of view? Steven jones 12:22, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

• We've probably been a little inconsistent with breeds that have very similar types & names. It's sometimes tough to decide whether there's enough difference among the breeds to warrant having separate articles. For example, Welsh Corgi provides general info about both the Welsh Corgi (Cardigan) and Welsh Corgi (Pembroke), but specific breed details are in the individual articles. For Dachshund, however, all the breeds and standards and coat variations and sizes are listed in one single article. I think it's "what feels best for the particular breed group." Elf | Talk 17:44, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Steven. Yes, I agree with Elf. These decisions are difficult and we should probably let them evolve. Elf, thanks for fixing the formatting error on my Jack Russell stub page. I realized to late what I'd done, thought I'd tackle it this morning, and voila, it's been corrected! Wikipedia is amazing! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Quill (talk • contribs) .

• • Isn't it!  :-) Elf | Talk 02:32, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Need to add the Standard Foxies

I notice with mortification that the Quillster forgot to sign his name again. I'll get, it, folks--sorry!

This is a nice full article now, but one glaring omission is the lack of breed articles on the Smooth and Wire-haired Foxies (yes, I know that's not how the breed name is written, but I just can't help myself).

If any Standard Fox Terrier owners read this, they're likely to take offence. I haven't written an article because I'm not an expert on Standard Foxies. Can we at least have a stub?

Did I just volunteer? Everybody say "no".... Quill 05:19, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] It's a wire-haired

Can someone please add "wire" to the caption of the photo of the foxy in the snow? Also, this photo should be copied into fox terrier (wire) wire fox terrier or whatever we've called that article; I've forgotten. Quill 22:59, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

p.s. I see that there should be another photo as well, but I can't view it because my uploader isn't uploading. I look forward to seeing it eventually....Quill 23:22, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Uh, my failure. Sorry. I reverted to the last version. It's called Fox Terrier (Wire) :-). --Avatar-en 01:40, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image of a generic fox terrier

I see we're having a little conflict with a standard foxy breeder or enthusiast (anon). Look, we know that photo is not of a smooth fox terrier. It is a generic type. The point was that it had mixed characteristics of the descendent FT breeds. I'm sorry to see it go, as it was a good illustration in the right context. People who want to write only about one particular breed, please see the proper specific article, i.e. Fox Terrier Smooth, Toy Fox Terrier and so on. Quill 23:56, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Organization of Fox Terrier articles and material

(From User talk:Elf): Thanks, Elf - I'm not sure that the color info (genetics of fox terrier color--Elf moved from Smooth article to main Fox Terrier article) shouldn't be in each variety, but it isn't a major issue. I have loads more info on color genetics if anyone would be interested. I used to give talks to Fox Terrier clubs on it, and I was the Breeders/Judges Education coordinator for the American Fox Terrier Club and SFT presenter for a while. Thanks for cleaning up my stuff - I'm a newbie at the wiki submissions. Hope I'm doing this right! Tialin 03:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)Tialin

(From User talk:Tialin): That was good info you added. I think it's better to have it in the main JRT article because presumably it applies to all varieties of Fox Terriers and so it's better to have one article that goes into detail about it rather than trying to maintain 4 or more identical versions of the same text. I did add an explicit note to each article about going to the main Fox Terrier article for details. I think more info might be excellent. Not many articles go into details about the genetic reasons for various colors, but it's mostly because that info's not widely available and/or most people don't know much about it. Dobermann has some similar stuff. I'd suggest watching terms that laypersons aren't going to understand right off the bat and either explaining (briefly) or trying to figure out where to link to them in WP. Elf | Talk 05:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

(From User talk:Elf): Couple of things - first, I'm sure it was just a mistake, the main page would be Fox Terrier, not JRT.

There are not four varieties of Fox Terrier, only two, and the standards of Smooths and Wires do differ in several aspects - they are two separate breeds with common ancestors and similarities, but many differences. The Wire Fox Terrier Standard was amended to reflect the differences between the breeds, much more than merely coat.

The only two varieties of true Fox Terrier are Smooth and Wire. The breeds were originally one breed with two varieties, and were once interbred before being officially split in the AKC in the '80s. Smooths and Wires may no longer be registered if interbred, and in practice have not been interbred for decades.

Not so for the ones I assume you refer to as the other two of four varieties, Parson Jack Russells (formerly known by AKC as Jack Russell Terriers) and Toy Fox Terriers. Neither of these two breeds has been interbred with true Fox Terriers for at least one hundred years. While they share common breeds as ancestors (what breed doesn't, if you go back far enough?) it is not correct to refer to those last mentioned breeds as varieties of Fox Terrier (despite the misnamed Toy Fox) any more than it would be to refer to a Doberman Pinscher as a variety of Rottweiler or other breeds used to create it!

Perhaps Toy Fox Terriers have employed Smooth Fox Terriers at some point, but they are much more related to several other Toy breeds than Fox Terriers, and no reputable breeder would ever allow a Fox Terrier to be bred with any Toy Fox Terrier, any more than to be crossbred with any other breed. Nothing against TFTs, it's just that if the parents aren't the same breed, the dog is basically a mutt. Unike cats, the days of creating new breeds are pretty much over. Labradoodles (expensive MUTTS! notwithstanding.

The American Fox Terrier Club does not represent or promote JRT, PRT or Toy Fox Terriers, nor do any other Fox Terrier clubs in the world. These breeds have their own organizations and completely separate standards. They are NOT Fox Terriers. Similarly, German Pinschers and Minature Pinschers are not varieties of Doberman Pinschers, despite common elements of naming.

I think you would be better off removing the Fox Terrier page other than as a referral point for Smooths and Wires, etc, since there really is no Fox Terrier breed any more. I don't believe they compete together (apart from in the Terrier Group) or are interbred any more anywhere in the world.

As for the color inheritance of JRTs, PRTs or TFTs, I imagine it might be similar, but can't speak to that with any certainty.

And as for genetic terms, I'll go through and try to link them to the proper places in the Wiki. Is there a way to display a superscript? The alleles are all designated as s superscipt p, etc. I need to read the style sheets, etc, I guess.

Thanks for your help!

Tialin 01:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)Tialin

Yup, you're right, "JRT" was a brain hiccup above and I mean "Fox Terrier". The 4 varieties I referred to were the Wire, Smooth, Toy, and Miniature. I'm goint to move our discussion so far to Talk:Fox Terrier so the explanations and discussions are preserved somewhere where they can be found. :-) Elf | Talk 16:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I look at the Origin section of that article and the coat color info you added and it seems to me that those apply to all four breeds, no? It's challenging to try to maintain the same text in 4 different places accurately. One alternative might be to move this page to something like Fox Terrier history and then turn Fox Terrier into a simple disambiguation page listing Wire, Smooth, Toy, Min...and Standard?... That might be a lot clearer, actually, although it would be the first time it's been done among the dog breeds. (That doesn't make it wrong, of course, just--different. :-) ) The more I think about this possibility, the more I like it.

Let me know what you think (and others sometimes weigh in, too); to my eye (not a FT expert), pretty much everything currently on this page applies to all 4 "fox terrier" named breeds.

As for superscript, there's no magic, just the usual HTML markup s^p. Elf | Talk 16:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Weighing in here. Tialin, if the basis of your argument is any variation on the theme "they-aren't-recognized-by-the-AKC/KC/FCI so-therefore-they-aren't-a-breed" I must tell you that that one has been discussed and debated for a couple of years now, and, while nothing is cast in stone, the members of the DogProject (which I cordially invite you to join) have a general consensus about including bona fide dog breeds whether or not they have kennel club affiliation.

I appreciate that you are a member and/or spokesperson for the AFTC, and I recognize that the AFTC assigns specific and limited meaning to the words "Fox Terrier". If, however, you are going to assert that that is the ONLY meaning to the words, I have to point out that the scholarship of many others is against you. Some of the points you make are partially true, some are completely inaccurate, and some are red herrings--where, for example, has anyone suggested the cross-breeding of Toy Fox Terriers with Fox Terriers, Smooth?

If the established Fox Terrier breeders of modern kennel clubs date the Fox Terrier from the date of establishment of the Fox Terrier Club, or something close to it, that is their business. If they wish to ignore the claims of other inheritors of the title, that is also their business, but as a historian I must attempt to inject the known facts into any work with which I am associated.

The KC, London, recognized the Parson Russell as a working variant of the Fox Terrier. Since those are the same good folks who first officially recognized the Fox Terrier, we must allow that they know what they're talking about.

Working Jack Russell Terrier enthusiasts call their dogs "Fox Terriers".

Toy Fox Terriers and Miniature Fox Terriers are indeed descended from Fox Terriers; some can trace their lineage back to early registered dogs.

I'm not going to debate the rights and wrongs of these positions, merely to point out that they exist and, if we're serious about what we're doing here, they deserve commensurate mention.

Quill 04:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

p.s. Elf, you may be onto something with your suggestion. Allow me to toss it about in my beleagured brain for a bit. Quill 04:12, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and then the "Fox Terrier history" page could spell out where &when the breeds diverged, which would make it even clearer that they're quite different today. Elf | Talk 04:46, 7 February 2006 (UTC)