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[edit] Soviet Losses

Where do those numbers come from? According to Krivosheev, the two fronts involved (Leningrad and Karelian) lost a combined 94,000 to all causes (KIA, MIA, medical). Check here. Andreas 12:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I used Ohto Manninen, Molotovin coctail, Hitlerin sateenvarjo, 1994 book, where he had collected his research articles. In this case, he has used Soviet Ministry of Defence archives and counted the numbers from day to day casualty reports and 10 day Army level casualty reports. I tried to use Krivosheev's numbers but those parts and strong elements not in... makes those unreliable in Finnish fronts. In addition as most of the troops on both sides were concentrated in Karelian Isthmus, it is unlikely that total losses there were only 30,000 when in Karelia they were almost 64,000, especially when in Ministry of Defence 10-day casualty reports indicate, that only 21.Army lost in a month 51,200 men during the main offensive.--Whiskey 13:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Liberating Red Army?

In the article it says "The result was a stalemate, even though Soviets liberated East Karelia". I hardly think they liberated anything... They just brought back the oppression and the killings...

Let's not make a political point of view here. The East Karelia was possessed by Soviet Union before the war, and it was occupied by Finnish troops. To drive occupying force away is generally called liberation. If one starts making judgements which liberations are really liberations and which are not, then we are in a bottomless swamp without any hope of neutral articles. --Whiskey 08:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

According to some Wikipedia policies such words as "Liberation" should be avoided and instead use neutral terms such as "battle of", "conquered" etc. --Pudeo (Talk) 12:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Whiskey, East Karelia was Soviet territory before the war. Article doesn't mention Vyborg beeing "liberated", since it was conquered by the Red Army.Woden 18:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From the Soviet losses, again...

There seems to be contradicting information about the losses Soviet army suffered during the operation. Ilya Moshansky gives in Sturm Karelskogo Vala. Vyborgsko-Petrozavodskaja strategicheskaja nastupatelnaja operazija 10 ijuna - 9 avgusta 1944 goda. ("Vojennaja Letopis", BTV-MN, Moscow, 2005) the casualty numbers of 23,674 KIA and 72,701 WIA. The exactly same numbers exist in G.F. Krivoshejev's Grif sekretnosti snjat (Soviet Casualties and combat losses in the Twentieth century). I look right now in front of me a photocopy of the table from Krivoshejev's book (English translation), and there reads: "Leningrad Front, right wing (21st and 23rd Armies, 13th Air Army; 10.06-20.06.44)" in the next column, there is a number of formations, and it also is incomplete: "rifle divisions-15, fortified areas-2, ind.tank brigades-1" as in reality even in the given timeframe at least 22 rifle divisions (45, 63, 64 Guards RD, 178, 358, 372, 46, 90, 314, 72, 109, 286, 168, 265, 268, 13, 177, 92, 281, 381, 10, 142 RD), up to 4 tank brigades (30 Gurds, 1, 152, 220), at least 2 artillery divisions (5 Guards and 15), 32 AD artillery division, at least 3 pioneer brigades (17 Sturm, 20, 52) and other units participated in fighting at Karelian Isthmus.

So, the data in Krivoshejev's book and all other books which derive their numbers from Krivoshejev are incomplete. --Whiskey 07:44, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

STAVKA gave order to continue attack to Lake Saimaa and Priozesk at June 21, and finally at July 15 commander of the 21st Army general D.N. Gusev ordered troops to defensive. In is hardly believable that not a single soldier was killed or wounded during those three and half weeks when Red Army tried to fulfill it's order. Krivoshejev is truthful in his statistics that he doesn't even claim that his casualty numbers consist all casualties for the whole duration of the offensive, but I haven't read Moshansky's book so I don't know if he has the same caveat in his numbers.

The final conclusion is that Krivoshejev's numbers had to be modified by the casualties of the 21st, 23rd and 59th Armies from the time period of June 21-July 15. --Whiskey 14:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)