Talk:Fortis and lenis

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[edit] Tenuis

Is tenuis a synonym of fortis? I've seen it used in opposition with lenis but aren't sure if it's the same thing. --Ptcamn 13:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not really. From what I understand, a tenuis could be either fortis or lenis. Talking about tenues makes only sense in opposition to mediae and aspiratae (all three terms have been coined to describe ancient Greek). ― j. 'mach' wust | ✑ 14:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, tenues can be (plain) fortes or (voiceless) lenes. See Voice onset time.

David Marjanović | david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at | 20:35 CET | 2006/2/19

[edit] Merger?

Consonant mutation, Consonant gradation, Lenition, Fortition and Fortis and lenis all seem to be about the same kind of phenomenon. Perhaps they should be merged. FilipeS 21:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think these terms are all well different enough. If there were a merger, then perhaps fortition might be merged into lenition. Fortis and lenis is very different from fortition and lenition because the former describes different kinds of sounds, but the latter different kinds of sound change. Consonant gradation seems to be a well defined technical term in the description of Finnish and related languages; consonant mutation is a well defined technical term in the description of insular Celtic languages. -- j. 'mach' wust ☞ ☏ 21:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand that "fortis and lenis" means something different from "fortition and lenition", but in practice the two former words only seem to be used in the context of fortition and lenition, so it seems redundant to have specific articles for them.

While the term "consonant gradation" may be more traditional in the study of Finnish and other Baltic languages, and "consonant mutation" may be more traditional in the grammar of Celtic languages, I see no substantive difference between the two concepts. As far as I can tell, they're just different names for the same general concept. I know there are differences in the details, but then Dhuolo, Hebrew and Paiute have nothing to do with the Celtic languages, either, and people still use the term "consonant mutation" for them.

See also the discussion here. FilipeS 00:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The terms fortis and lenis (without the terms fortition and lenition) are traditionally used in the description of German, especially of Southern German. Celtic conosnant mutation is the result of a historical sandhi effect across morpheme boundaries, whereas consonant gradation is a word-internal phenomenon. -- j. 'mach' wust ☞ ☏ 07:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The current version of the article does not make that clear, though. FilipeS 10:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't it? It seemed to me that the section Fortis and lenis#History and use of the terms was very explicit about this. How would you improve it? -- j. 'mach' wust ☞ ☏ 11:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I was not just talking about the article Fortis and Lenis. Actually, after the replies I got here and in the other page, I'm becoming convinced that Fortis and Lenis does deserve an article of its own. I'm still not convinced about the others, though, particularly the trio lenition/fortition - consonant mutation - consonant gradation FilipeS 11:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)