Talk:Formula One car

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[edit] Ground effects

Is it true to say that ground effects specifically are banned in F1, or is it just contoured underbodies that are banned? I honestly don't know, but it seems to me that the downforce that cars currently get from their raised nose, flat bottom and diffuser set up constitutes ground effects. SamH 09:03, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

From what I saw on a doco once, both contoured underbodies (flat bottom must be used) and side skirts are banned. Sliding side skirts are just as important as the shaped undertray for creating the ground effect, as they prevent the fast travelling air from being 'sucked' out the side of the car, significantly reducing the ground effect. However, I do agree that using the ground effect as such is not specifically banned - but rules have been put in place to prevent its use. Similar to the banning of launch control...I believe the rule is actually banning electronic systems that control power to reduce wheel spin (or something ridiculous like that) below speeds of 100mph (not sure exactly) - an effective ban, but not specifically stated as such. AlbinoMonkey 12:25, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] New Articles

I'd like to make new articles on each of the categories shown here, such as Formula One car aerodynamics. I am admittedly not an expert on any of the things, but have plenty of F1 magazines to take reference from, and am interested enough to do decent research. The information that is here could remain, but as I have seen on other pages, with a link just below the title that says something like Main article:Formula One car aerodynamics. Objections/comments? AlbinoMonkey 12:25, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The aerodynamics section of this article (Formula One cars) is quite short, so why not incorporate it there? The fewer "sub-articles" the better, I think, because it's less confusing. — Dan | Talk 13:00, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Danny; usually, articles are only split up when they become so long that they are difficult to read. I think that with the amount of info on this page, splitting it would make the information more difficult to read. SamH 13:21, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Engine section discrepancy?

In the Engine section, it starts out by describing the current enginer requirements as 8-cylinder V8, but later, after describing next year's changes, says that cars will be allowed next year to stay in the current V-10 configuration with detuning. So what is it? 8 or 10?

Cars are meant to use V8's in 2006, but there is an allowance to use a de-tuned V10 if they believe their V8 will not be reasonably competitive or available. I'm not sure of the exact ruling, but I'll have a look AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 00:22, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 5valve?

article in wikipedia says no more than 5 valves. F1.com says 2inlet and 2 outlet. Mistake?

Actually Wikipedia says "The regulations specify that the cars must be powered by 2.4 litre naturally-aspirated engines in the V8 configuration that have no more than FOUR valves per cylinder."

[edit] engine horsepower ratings

I think we should add the fact that exact horsepower ratings are closely guarded team secrets, and all our numbers are estimations by experts. In fact, teams sometimes lie outright as a disinformation strategy against other teams. I am not sure where to put that though


[edit] performace sections

I originally added the entire performance sections (forward accel, deceleration, turning accel) without a username, so I have deleted and re-added these sections to get the credit (in a clumsy way). I spend a lot of time in F1 technical sites and forums, and for the figure for 0 to 300 quoted in the acceleration section I spent quite some time with a stopwatch in hand and wathcing onboard videos of F1 cars from several seasons. The distance markers on the side of the track leading to turns helped along with the stopwatch. Deletor 14:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Deletor

Unfortunately I think your work falls under Wikipedia:No original research and can't be included unless you can find a verifiable source to back the figures up. AlbinoMonkey (Talk) 21:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Alright, thanks for the heads up; let me clarify that the figures I have quoted for the acceleration for the Renault R25 are from the times taken from onboard videos, so as such my 'research' for the exact figures are simply 'observations' of the actual, recorded phenomena, not research. (Anyone else can do the same). For the other figures, the acceleration figures for 0 - 100 kph are know to be 2 seconds for F1 cars, even in 2006. For instance, in the recent 2006 San Marino GP, explaining why he couldn't stop even when the lollipop slammed into his helmet, said: ". These things get from nought to sixty in two second so by the time you realise, you're gone and everybody is on the deck,". planet-f1 article linkThe other figures are from quotes during races, F1 TV shows, F1 racing mags, and F1 official team sites. Eg throughout the 2005 Turkish GP the g-force for the famous turn 8 was quoted in TV broadcasts, websites, official sites as 4.5 G (for 8 seconds which incidentally was causing the drivers pain in their rib-cages). Deletor 04:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Deletor

[edit] safety section needs to be added

I don't have enough material to add the section on safety of modern F1 cars, for instance the detailed construction and crash testing (I know a bit from various Inside GP episodes), as well as the g-force sufferred and survived by Ralf Schumacher in the 2004 USA GP. Could someone start this with these facts? I'll try to look them up, or at least compile the known facts about safety and crash testing from the (Official FIA) Inside GP episodes. One thing related to safety that should be added is this: During an episode of the TV show Fifth Gear Jackie Stewart told Tiff Needell, "Michael Schumacher makes more mistakes every Grand Prix weekend than any Grand Prix multiple world champion I've ever known. I mean, the number of times I went off in a Grand Prix in my entire career I could count on one hand, because if you went off the road there was a very good chance you were gonna hit something hard, and you were gonna hurt yourself, nevermind the car." However the context of the show was safety in Grand Prix racing and Stewart's statement simply reflect the fact that safety standards in F1 today are vastly improved over those of thirty years ago. While every mistake could be potentially fatal in those days, modern-day top F1 drivers are expected to always drive on the limit, specially in practice sessions when they are trying to find the limits of the car. Technical director of Ferrari, Ross Brawn, has an explanation for this phenomenon. "The truth is that if, during practice sessions, Michael feels he's losing the car, he prefers to let the car go instead of trying to make huge corrections to stay on the track. It's part of his search for the limit. During a race however, he's the driver who makes the least mistakes." Deletor 22:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)Deletor

[edit] Turning acceleration figures: it is 4.0g in Istanbul Turn 8

Somebody has changed the acceleration figure for Istanmbul Turn 8 from 4.0g to 3.0g. However there is no reason why the g-force can't be so high, and empirical evidence supports that the lateral acceleration force is 4.0g or more: 1. The turning ability in terms of centripetal acceleration is not fixed but goes up with speed - in low speed cornering at < 100 km/h it is almost all due to the mechanical grip of the tyres and is about 2.0g. As the speed rises the downforce increases, and depending on the cornering radius can be very high - in fast corners such as Blanchimont in Spa or 130R in Suzuka, although the corners pose no challenge in terms of being on the limit, the high speeds (>300km/h) mean that the g-force spikes at 5.0g for a few seconds. 2. The Turn 8 has 4 35° to 45° corners . They are taken at speeds between 190km/h and 240km/h (in 2005, as seen from the FIA official broadcast onboard telemetry). The same telemetry also shows the lateral g-forces, and on the scale which goes up to 5.0g, the g-force stays above 3.5g throughout the 8 second corner, and has several spikes > 4.5g (at the corner apexes). Deletor 23:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


Twards the end of the article, it reads: "in which the cars maintain speeds between 255 km/h and 270 km/h (in 2006) and experience between 4.5g and 5.5g for 7 seconds - the longest sustained hard cornering in Formula 1 (and hence all motorsport)."

I believe Indy Cars see similar, if not higher, cornering g's. Mustang6172 04:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You must be joking Mr., all Indy Cars do is circle around and around, they have no cornering G's. (216.99.61.34 01:22, 8 September 2006 (UTC))

"Circling around and around at high speed", that's where cornering G's come from! It's not magic you know. Mustang6172 06:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The radii of the so-called circular tracks are big enough to reduce those G's to something like 1 or 2. There are no exceptional braking zones or any sharp corners.
I think an accelerometer would disagree with you. I'm not talking about breaking or sharp turns. Sharp turns produce low lateral G's anyway. If you're interested in pure acceleration and breaking G's, a Top Fuel car has an F1 car beat hands down. Lateral G's come from wide fast turns, and banking makes them faster. Mustang6172 05:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with user 216.99.X.X. An F1 car is technologically way superior to that of an indy-car (fact). As a result, it would produce more G's under the same conditions/track/etc (head to head comparison). (130.113.226.6 19:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC))
I'm not talking about G's would be reached in a head-to-head comparison with identical (and controlled) parameters. I'm talking about what the cars actually do in real life. Like it or not, Indy cars are pulling 5 G's at Richmond Mustang6172 05:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Mustang6172, as you can read in the article, F1 cars produce twice downforce of an Indycar can at 190 kph. 8th turn in IstanbuPark is taken over 275 kph speed, and its diameter is one tenth of any oval circuit. I watched 2005 Istanbul Grand Prix at the circuit, drived a Renault Clio RS (200bhp) on this circuit in 2006, driven at PS2 F1 2006 game hundreds laps and spend much time reading telemetry data. At third apex of Turn 8, F1 cars can reach over 6.2 G's with a right adjustment at the F1 2006 simulation. By the way, I'm totally sure an oval-racer car can't even get close to an F1 car on a non-oval track. Khutuck 18:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow, you played a video game. You're certainly a force to be reckoned with (sarcasm intended). While I’m sure you can reach 6.2g’s on your little game, in real life, 6.2g’s would cause brownouts. Champ Car cancelled an oval race in 2001 because drivers were seeing more than 6g’s sustained through the turns. The human body, regardless of physical condition, cannot operate in those conditions. I fail to see how it matters if a car that’s been designed specifically to race on ovals can reach the same g-loads on a road course. I fail to see what difference it makes if Xg’s are produced on a road course or an oval.Mustang6172 20:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naming

Shouldn't this article properly be called Formula One car, in accordance with Wikipedia naming conventions? --SFoskett 14:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. I be bold now. Gzuckier 18:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Engine heat units discrepancy

Under the "Engine" section, the engine is described as producing "100 000 BTU per minute (1750kW) of heat". Shouldn't that read "100 000 BTU per minute (1750kJ) of heat"? As kW is kJ per second.

[edit] imperial measures

i was hoping that maybe imperial measures could be put in brackets next too the current metric ones. i was hoping this because many ppl in the US and UK would appreciate this and make it more understandable. i personally when reading the article had to convert the units in my haed so i could appreciate it Pratj 12:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Top speeds

Hi 64.76.91.29. My recent edits were intended to clarify that an F1 car, modified, but still F1 legal (I don't believe there's any rule which says you have to have a rear wing) had reached a speed of 413km/h at Mojave. I only mention the actual Bonneville flats speed (the same car, but not F1 legal because it used a 'moveable aerodynamic device') because it's the one most people have heard of.

  • "Despite some so called Formula One car performance demonstrations being conducted by some constructors in recent years in the hope of media attraction." - In Wikipedia articles we need to keep a neutral tone (see WP:NPOV). 'So-called' and 'in the hope of' give a strong impression of the editor's views.
  • "the real performance of these cars can only be measured on a race track where the FIA restrictions and legislations are observed." - First off, although this kind of argument is useful for deciding what we put in the article, we can't actually put the argument in the article, unless we've got it referenced from somewhere else. I agree that 'real' performance can only be measured where FIA restrictions are in force. Honda claim that the car met FIA F1 regulations at Mojave - we have no particular reason to disbelieve them, but that is why I used that phrasing to make it clear to the reader that we only have their word for it. I don't agree that 'real' performance can only be measured on the race track. If you took a completely standard Honda and ran it at Mojave you'd still reach a higher top speed than they do at F1 tracks - given that you can trim downforce below the optimum for a racetrack and step up the gearing. We do need to be very clear that this is about the top speed that a car meeting F1 regulations can meet, not the top speed of the cars we see every other weekend on the track (Edit - sorry, clarifying my thoughts!).
  • "McLaren Mercedes and Red Bull Racing" - I didn't include this in my edit because I hadn't heard that they had done this and I didn't have a reference for it.
  • notoriously" - not a neutral word
  • "which is not an indicator of real open-wheeled F1 car performance but the indicator of what an open-wheel car could do during a qualifying session with the absence of a Formula." - I think I agree with the sentiment being expressed here, but I think it can be expressed more clearly. In particular, it's not about what can be achieved in a qualifying session, I would suggest it is more about what can be achieved with an F1 car if the only criteria is top straightline speed.

I will edit your words in line with these points. If you disagree, please correct those points that you feel are wrong, it would be useful if you could describe your reasoning here with reference to my points above. Thanks. 4u1e 07:31, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Done - although I have ended up modifying my version rather than yours. 4u1e 09:27, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

good, thanks a lot 4u1e... user

[edit] Steering Wheel

I tought they cost over $100,000, not $40,000.. i saw that in a book —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.12.155.116 (talk) 14:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

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