User talk:Folken de Fanel

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Contents

[edit] Tomb Raider Anniversary Edit

I was simply reporting what looked to be legit on another site. Mabey its fake, mabey it isnt but I certainly didnt intend on vandilizing your article.

[edit] End of Evangelion

The end of Evangelion is in the lyrics of the opening. The discussion was deleted, so I could not tell you it was "nonsense". What was changed was the plot, not the end. Help yourself and read the lyrics before answering.

[edit] Warning

It seems to me that you have acted in an uncivil manner on Daishokaioshin. It is important to keep a cool head, despite any comments against you. Personal attacks and disruptive comments only escalate a situation; please keep calm and action can be taken against the other parties if necessary. Your involvement in attacking back can only satisfy trolls or anger contributors, and lead to general bad feeling. Please try to remain civil with your comments. Thanks! --3bulletproof16 16:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The correct term - Ares or Arles?

Folken de Fanel

Greetings.

I have been noticing as of late - that you are the one responsible for editing the name Ares - to Arles.

This is wrong, as you should know, the name Arles makes no sense and is completely mistranslated from the japanese name "Aruhss" as it is pronounced in their native language. Therefore, the correct term is Ares.

Please, I respect your opinion - but the correct term IS Ares, and it should be used correctly. I don't mind if the term Arles is used in your native language or in your country. I'm from Peru, and I have watched Saint Seiya in South America over 13 yrs ago. Like you, I also understand the burning passion and the love that we both have for our beloved series.

Yes, in my country - they also used the term "Arles" and the term "Knights" when it was dubbed here. However, we have grown fond of those terms and they are what we used everyday now.

But, it doesn't mean they are the correct terms, the correct terms should be "Saints" instead of "Knights", just like "Ares" should be used instead of "Arles".

Like I stated before - it was mis-interpreted and it became the standard term most Saint Seiya fans use nowadays. But this is Wikipedia, and we should strive to put out there correct terms, not the terms that we grown fondly of. Not the terms that we have grown fond of 13 yrs ago. I understand you - and I hope that you understand as well.

I am not forcing my opinion in you - but its the correct term dictated by the anime. Try watching the Original Japanese Anime, and you can see clearly he is named Ares. Try going to Bandai website, and you will see that he is named "Grand Pope Ares" in the packaging of the Saint Seiya Myth Cloth Series- thus, completely negating the term "Arles". See it for yourself, if you don't believe me.

And please, before you decide to edit my comments - state as of why? and provide evidence VALID to prove that ARLES is the CORRECT term. I have watched and OWN all the Saga, in 3 diff. languages, and I understand your opinion - but its invalid when it is used against the correct and ORIGINAL Japanese anime.

Thanks.

I really didn't try to be vindictive or anything, look - I'm not going to sit here and waste my life away in this.

You say Arles, I say Ares - truth to the matter, we don't know. And yes, I was very well aware of the Orphe comment, but like you said - there's nothing concrete and 100% fact. I was also very aware of the Japanese pronunciation, but it made sense regarding the "Ares" theory (read below)

Regarding Saga, being the embodiment of Ares, that is also a matter of speculation. Nowhere in the anime has it been stated - as to what really was that possessed Saga to being evil.

The opinion was:

- He developed an alter ego, due to mental problems (ying and yang theory), and his evil side ended up taking the best of him.

- He became so powerful and dillusional with his own power, that he decided that Athena was weak and was not ready for the upcoming holy wars - thus, he being the strongest should take lead. He wanted to what was best, but ended up losing track of who he was (hence the "who are you" statement in the manga, and later revealed in the Anime as to why he wanted Athena's power)

- He was possessed by the War God Ares, and feeling cheated of being reincarnated in a young body such as Athena, he wanted to kill her and take over the world (hence the many comments in the manga - of him being the "half-god" or possessing a Cosmos that defied those of a God - check the ep 4 of Hades - the title says it all - even in the Manga, when Seiya reflects the Shield light at him - a spirit much akin to the way Poseidon was defeated appeared, proving more evidence that it could have been the War God or an evil spirit)

- He was the re-incarnation of evil, as stated many times in the anime.

All of these are plausible theories, none have been proven yet - because they are all in the Anime and Manga. Thus, I'm going to leave it at that. Like I said - each and one of these theories are right - but no one has come up with a way of linking all of these theories together. Nothing is 100% concrete.

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh - but at least input all of these informations and facts out there. Don't just negate them. I'm only looking for means to link everything together - all of the theories and opinions, so that way we don't come to disagreements over names, or over what happened in the series. Kind of like have a common understanding such as this way - everyone is pleased and everyone is on the same page. If not, well - what can we do?


[edit] tien

I know he is usually considered a human but cant know for sure so I think we should leave it as unknown. Count Raznagul 20:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Daizenshuu noncanon!!!!! Count Raznagul 00:05, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] (Breaks some bread)

I totally do not need any more of this drama. Can we just bury the hatchet and pretend all of this never happened? The S 02:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fellow Saint Seiya fan

I've noticed by now that you have as much spirit for Saint Seiya as i have. And i thought that the Wiki page being just built on one persons knowledge wouldn't be aknowledged by the community. So i would like to suggest a teamwork between you and me since i've noticed that we both have some sources the other doesn't. So what do you say?

[edit] Hi

Hi, I already provided fact info on the discussion on the talk page, what do you still need to wait for to adjust the article? I can even provide the manga pages that stated the fact to expalin the research if you need that. Yajaec 23:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


Reply:

What are you talking about, I stated hard fact stright from manga that Hypnose and Thanatos have Pandora to watch over Hades' spirit till the seal on the tower is broken, it's hard fact I even have the manga and I can provide it how can you dismiss it? Yajaec 23:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

I did not modify the words in manga, and I will provide links to manga pages if I have to and proove that's what manga said. I did not controdict myself because manga clearly said that Hades born as Pandora's younger brother. And shown in manga that all the gods existed before 13years ago either physically like Hypnose etc. and spirirtually like Poseidon and Hades, that's not a controdiction.

You have no bases to proove that I am wrong, why don't you provide the fact that I modify the words in manga and proove that manga clearly stated, with out a doubt that the spirit possessed Saga IS Hades?!?!?Yajaec 23:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your dispute over Saint Seiya

Hello! My name is Kurt Weber, and I have agreed to assist User:Yajaec as an advocate in his dispute with you over the Saint Seiya article. In order to let tempers cool down, I am asking that both of you agree to refrain from editing this article until the matter is settled. As a show of good faith, Yajaec has agreed to let the article stand as you wish it (this does not, of course, preclude third parties from making their own changes to the article).

You should know that I am not trying to prove the substance of Yajaec's edits "right" in any way--in fact, I know next to nothing about anime or manga. So you don't need to try to prove your case to me; that's not what I'm concerned with. All I'm concerned with is making sure that this matter is settled in a mature and intelligent fashion, regardless of what content winds up in the article.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the RfC Yajaec filed on that article. He wasn't necessarily trying to find people to back him up; he was simply trying to determine what the community consensus is--whether it agrees with his point, your point, or something altogether different from what both of you want at present. Whatever that consensus is, he is willing to follow it--and, as a good Wikipedian, you should be too. While you are always free to try and change a consensus, you must allow the article to reflect whatever the consensus is at any given moment. Yajaec was simply inviting the Wikipedia community at large to come together and arrive at a consensus, whatever it might be, so that this dispute may be resolved peacefully and quietly.

Finally, your threat of "proper vandalism warnings" should Yajaec continue to edit the article in the manner he preferred was most unnecessary. While a good case could probably be made that he was edit warring, the same case would apply to you as well--it takes two to tangle. And at any rate, what he did certainly was not "vandalism". Simply adding content that you deem inappropriate or incorrect (or removing content you deem appropriate or correct) does not constitute "vandalism"--it must be added (or removed) in bad faith, which clearly is not the case here. Hopefully you can understand this, and keep what arguments you must have in context.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions about Yajaec's case or the dispute resolution process. Hopefully we can solve this quickly and amicably! Kurt Weber 18:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand how Wikipedia works. It is not sufficient to simply claim victory and to declare that any further adding of content you consider false constitutes vandalism. Wikipedia works by creating a consensus among interested editors--and, as you and Yajaec appear to be the only interested editors to this point, you must both agree for a consensus to exist. Unless and until that happens, you can neither (a) claim that your version of the page is the only correct one, nor (b) claim that adding content you consider to be "misinformation" constitutes vandalism.

Vandalism requires intent. One not must be simply be adding "misinformation" (your word); he must also honestly believe it to be false. That is absolutely not the case here.

As you and Yajaec were clearly unable to come to a consensus among yourselves, Yajaec filed an RfC requesting a consensus on what should be contained in the article. This simply means that he was soliciting input from the Wikipedia community at large as to what the best way to write the article would be. Remember that, by choosing to be a Wikipedia editor, you are bound to honor whatever consensus the Wikipedia community comes to regarding article content. As I mentioned earlier, you are of course free to try and change that consensus--but you must allow the article to reflect the current consensus at any point in time. I urge you at least give the RfC a try--simply because Yajaec has been ineffective at convincing you of his arguments does not mean he is wrong. We all get a little thick-headed (myself included) when we're sure of ourselves, and sometimes it takes two or three different ways of presenting an argument before those who disagree with you find the one that gets through to you.

Just give it a chance, that's all I'm asking. Help Yajaec see the RfC through to the end--clearly, you're both genuinely interested in making this article the best it can be.

Finally, I do not need to understand the article's subject matter to be an effective advocate. Remember, it's not my job to figure out what the "correct" version of the page is--my job is simply to help editors come to a consensus as to what it is by guiding them through Wikipedia's dispute resolution process. Kurt Weber 22:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

You claim it is indisputable proof; he clearly disagrees. That is the purpose of the RfC--to come to a community consensus about which is correct. Again, it is not enough for you to simply claim victory and then categorically revert any changes he may make. When there is a disagreement among editors, you solicit the input of the community as a whole. If you are unwilling to follow proper Wikipedia dispute resolution procedures, further action may be taken. Kurt Weber 13:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you understand quite what is required of you as a Wikipedian. First off, you must realize that this is a community effort. That means, among other things, that you may not "claim" ownership of articles. Your remark that you "will not allow" Yajaec to edit Saint Seiya unless it contains certain elements [1] indicates that you do indeed assert ownership over that article, a violation of WP:OWN.

Furthermore, being right (if indeed you are--I don't know) does not free you from your obligation to work with others. You claim that the RfC for that article is "unnecessary" because all Yajaec has to do is cite sources that back him up. He believes he has done that. You claim he has not. The whole purpose of the RfC process is to resolve just such disputes between users. Unfortunately, no one uninvolved in the dispute has chosen to offer his input. This is regrettable; however, there are still several options available to resolve the dispute--but merely claiming "victory" and reverting any edits you disagree with is not one of them, regardless of how right you may be.

Finally, I must insist that you stop referring to Yajaec's edits to that page as "Vandalism". Just because you are convinced you are right--and are convinced you have adequately demonstrated how right you are--does not make adding what you call "misinformation" vandalism. If malicious intent is not obvious--and it is not in this case--then you must show that he did indeed have malicious intent rather than being simply mistaken about a question of fact. If you continue referring to his edits as "vandalism" without showing this to be true, it may be considered a violation of WP:CIVIL. Kurt Weber 17:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The issue is not whether or not you consider it to be "misinformation", or whether or not it actually is "misinformation". The issue is: did the individual who added the content honestly believe it to be incorrect? You may be convinced that you have sufficiently proved that his edits are incorrect, but that is not sufficient--Wikipedia runs on consensus, not your assertions. The fact that Yajaec has agreed to refrain from editing the article until a consensus can be reached is a certain indicator of good faith--and the rest of the Wikipedia community will agree with me. If you continue to reject the need to find a consensus and instead simply deem your assertions sufficient, and if you continue to assume bad faith on the part of Yajaec and consider him to be a "vandal", you may very well find yourself blocked for violating Wikipedia's No Personal Attacks policy. Kurt Weber 21:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aroon Alone

Hi there, i where just wondering how you got アルーン to Aroon, when the kanji means Aruun.

[edit] Revert

May i know why you have revert in tomb raider : anniversary?. --SkyWalker 14:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dragon World

Please see Talk:Dragon World dispute for your vote on whether we should keep the Human (Dragon World) article or have it merged into Dragon World. Thanks! Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] template tag with Daishokaioshin

I don't know what's going on but please stop right now. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 00:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Replied on my talk page soi as to keep the discussion in one place. Although if you just stop there is no more to discuss. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 01:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Power level (Dragon Ball Z)

It seems that the article is missing a few Dragon Ball power levels from the Daizenshuu. In the past, you claimed to have [owned/or still own] a Daizenshuu, is that correct? I'm pretty sure that the following power levels, which I shall list now, are from thoses file books. They are:

Start of Dragon Ball

Kid Goku: 10

Kid Goku (Oozaru): 100

Other official ones I'm sure I've seen before:

Tao Pai Pai (before he became a cyborg):146 (When he was revived as a cyborg, I've seen that it was 189)

Crane Hermit:120

Piccolo Daimaou (old): 201

Piccolo Daimaou (young): 260 =I don't remember exactly what all of his demon offspring's power levels were precisely.

  1. Now I won't list the Red Ribbon Army's, Bacterian's, Namu's, Panpoot's, Man Wolf's, Ranfuan's, and Giran's, etc., Dragon Ball power levels because now I'm not really sure what the Daiz' has for them, or if they/anyone else is even given a power level in those books. Can you confirm any of these according to your Daizenshuu(s)? If they're official, can they be added to that article and, hence, can the article be renamed and moved to Power level (Dragon Ball)? -Since it's a continuation of DB, why should it even be named after DBZ, right? Answer back to me A.S.A.P.! Thanks, PL(DB) 08:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Then can you go ahead and add all of those Dragon Ball power levels since you have the Daizenshuu and I don't? The ones you listed of course (which I believe is true):

Kid Gokû: 10 Gokû Ôzaru: 100 Kame Sennin/Jackie Chun: 139 Tsuru Sennin: 120 Gokû and Tenshinhan during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budôkai: 180 each Gokû and Piccolo Daimaô in their final fight: 260 each

  • By the way, the reason why I said for the aricle to be renamed and moved to Power level (Dragon Ball) is because (Dragon Ball Z) is still (Dragon Ball). For example, Baby's article is not titled Baby (Dragon Ball GT) it's just Baby (Dragon Ball). Burdock's isn't Burdock (Dragon Ball Z), it's Burdock (Dragon Ball). See what I mean? If you still think it shouldn't be moved, then should I begin a survey/discussion about it on its' talk page? Answer back to me as soon as ya can and I really hope you add those power levels and give ear to my move request. Thanks! PL(DB) 18:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Folken, uh, are you gonna do it? Will you add the power levels and rename/move the page to Power level (Dragon Ball) si'l vous plait? Monsier, I would do it, but I don't wanna be scolded at or warned for possibe vandalism, plus I don't have a Daizenshuu to prove my theories... PL(DB) 19:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I already moved the page. I really, really hope that you add those Dragon Ball power levels since you have proof and I don't. Maybe I'll try to buy a Daizenshuu on eBay when I get the chance (if there's still one available). PL(DB) 20:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for everything. I was wondering though...

If it's not too much work for you, could you scan those power levels from your Daizenshuu and at the bottom of the Power level (Dragon Ball) page, place them as external links? It would be proof that all of those power levels are official, trustworthy, and not Original Research. Just a thought though... but perhaps, there is a website that has those Daizenshuu scans in Japanese, ain't there? Do you know of any site(s) that can be used as external links? PL(DB) 07:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Seems that it is called spamming to have those Daizenshuu scans and that image shacking is not allowed either. PL(DB) 17:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
These scans of yours here

and here that I got from you and added to that PL (DB) article are considered spam because of having something to do with image shacking. I wouldn't know, though... but in order for there to be some kind of evidence that these power levels are 100% accurate, don't cha think that there should be some kind of external link at the bottom of the page? That way, several people can use the links as references and not have to ask any questions or find the need to change any of the levels of any of those characters. PL(DB) 17:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Well then, maybe ya should take a look at this...

Hey, it's me Power level. Or I should say Bonjour, mon ami! Como c'est vai? Très bien! Très bien! (I only took French I in Secondary School, or as you'd call it, l'école secondaire) Anyways... maybe you saw how that I was just adding some more missing power levels from your Daizenshuu. I just realized, shouldn't the DB movie power levels be placed onto that article, PL (DB)? I don't have the Father of Goku, Broly, and any other DB movies except the Bojack film and Super Android 13 film DVD's. Maybe you can help add those movie power levels. If I recall correctly, Broli was born with a power level of 10,000. Burdock's power level was ≈10,000 (meaning approximately 10,000) which was mentioned in the special (I think) to be closer to King Vegeta's power level, which must have been 10,000 right? As for my user page, maybe you could just look through that and see if any of my guestimated power levels are correct. Now I'm not sayin' to use them as a reference, but see if anything else is right (which is not listed on the PL (DB) article). Ok? Thanks for your time, merci beaucoup! PL(DB) 16:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply: PL discussion

Oui, oui... well, in the Burdock movie special, I remember distinctly that when Burdock was recovering in that water chamber, either Malaka or Planthorr said something along the lines that: "he's recovering rapidly close to 10,000. That's almost King Vegeta's strength..." or something like that. Also, in the manga, Vegeta did say something along the lines to Freeza that he [Vegeta] was stronger than his father and had surpassed him when he was a child. For some reason, in the special, I also remember something like "Prince Vegeta's power level is 5,000." Either Nappa (the tall guy with hair in that special) said something like that, or I'm getting this from other source, or somewhere in my head :} Can you confirm all of these facts by watching the Japanese version of your Bardock: Father of Goku DVD with English subtitles on? (If ya haven't already done so, of course) Also, Vegeta's power level being close to 250,000 when fighting Freeza's first form sounds innaccurate. If anything, it was closer to being ≈530,000 rather than 250,000. If you recall, Vegeta was able to evenly match Freeza in his first form. Doesn't that mean that 250,000 is a little too weak of a power level to combat 530,000? Also Vegeta being closer to the 2 millions after being healed by Dende does sound like a guestimation. If ya really want my opinion on it, I'd say it was a hell of a lot closer to the 3 millons or something. Anyways, I'll let you decide on that. Oh yeah, get back to me on that Burdock and Broly thing. Then we'll add those power levels in the order they should be added. Definitely, we'll have to add Broly's power level at birth (10,000), as well as Son Goku's birth power (which is a mere level 2). PL(DB) 19:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, two other DB characters power levels that we should take into consideration is:

Yajirobe: 180 (from being able to match Kid Goku [180] evenly in their first encounter) - {just a thought...}

Karin: 180 (from caluculation)

Why Karin you ask? Because remember when Kid Goku asked Karin to train him to fight King Piccolo? Karin said something in the series like this "You gained as much power as I've ever had". You remember that, right? That's why Karin couldn't train him to battle King Piccolo. Anyways, I really hope you go back online Wikipedia so we could chat more about this. Where are you?... ... PL(DB) 15:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

If you recall this message: About the movie, I've not seen much of them (unedited/subbed, anyway), I only have the "Burdock Special" DVD...In it, they do say that Burdock is "about 10,000" so we can add it, yes. Also, Gokû as a newborn baby is said to be 2. As for the other movie, I don't know yet. Broli is said to be 10,000 at birth, but that's really all I know for sure. Concerning King Vegeta, I don't remember anything being said about him in the Burdock Special or anywhere. But know we're talking about it, I think Vegeta said somewhere he was already stronger than his father, but I don't remember when it was. Concerning your guesstimations, they seem valid. Anyway, while we're at it, concerning Vegeta against Freeza, I've always thought he was like 250,000 when he fought against Freeza 1, and then 2 millions against Freeza 4. What do you think about it?

Why did ya never respond to it again even though I responded back? (I noticed you started editing Wikipedia again on Jan. 13.) Anyways, we should add those movie power levels, Karin's, Yajirobi's, etc. immediately, right mon ami? (Power level (Dragon Ball) 19:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't know you were so busy. My bad. I guess I'll discuss power levels with other people. Power level (Dragon Ball) 20:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Forgot to say somethin'

When ya also could, see Wikipedia:User_categories_for_discussion#Category:Wikipedians_who_like_Dragon_Ball_Z for your opinion on this. PL(DB) 19:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

It's been taken care of... (Power level (Dragon Ball) 19:24, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject France

Hello! We are a group of editors working to improve the quality of France related articles. You look like someone who might be interested in joining us in the France WikiProject and so I thought I'd drop you a line and invite you! We'd love to have you in our project :-) STTW (talk) 16:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PL (DB) Comment

I don't know if ya still wanna participate in this, but if ya want to, see Talk:Power level (Dragon Ball)#Okay, let's get these power levels right!, thanks! Power level (Dragon Ball) 19:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Salut Folken! I didn't know that you had the Burdock film. Can you confirm the power levels of Prince Vegeta, King Vegeta and Burdock if they're mentioned in the Japanese audio with English subtitles? If you want to, you can show a scan (or we'll just trust your word if its' too much trouble for you to scan them). Thanks! Power level (Dragon Ball) 17:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It was in the manga (I believe) that Prince Vegeta said to Freeza on Namek: "I had surpassed him [King Vegeta] when I was a child..."

But wait, you have the uncut DVD right? Yours doesn't feature King Vegeta in it? How strange... Power level (Dragon Ball) 22:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

But you have the uncut FUNimation DVD, right? I'm so sure that King Vegeta (and his son) and even a young Nappa is in that version of the Bardock: The Father of Goku special. You sure ya got the Uncut FUNimation Bardock special? Power level (Dragon Ball) 22:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Pardonnez-moi then, I'm sorry that I bothered you a little about it. Merci pour l'informatique though... I'll see if I can find out soon what TV episode King Vegeta appeared in. Power level (Dragon Ball) 23:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
What was mentioned (power levels, etc.) about Prince Vegeta when he defeated those four Saibaimen in that training chamber? Did Nappa say anything? Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject

Hey Folken, would you be interested in joining our Wikiproject? Wikipedia:WikiProject Dragon Ball -- bulletproof 3:16 02:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geocities

I have nothing against Geocities but it isn't a reliable source. Why don't you just source the info the the DVD itself using {{cite video}}, instead of repeatedly adding the geocities cite

†he Bread 3000 22:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

If you happened to know the WP:RS rules (go read I can't be fucked explaining it) Geocities fails it, no matter how well translated it is. And if happened to know WTF you were talking about you'd know that the directors commentary comes from a DVD, I've sourced the crap you wanted sourced, it's done. That information is fairly trivial though, who cares if BB lost his eye to a bullet or the muzzle flash he still lost it, and it's fairly obvious he's pissed with McCone when he doesn't shake his hand
†he Bread 3000 19:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Here, the DVD exists I have it at my house. I'm reverting, it's easier to go with the DVD
†he Bread3000 19:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I meant location as in that that was the one I reffer to, the location of the one i'm citeing. Prehaps we could provide a hyper link to the geocities cite in the title of the ref as can be done, thus we're sourcing the reliable source and have a exaple for people to see online
†he Bread3000 01:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hey, you speak Portuguese too?

I noticed that you've been editing the Power level page on the Portuguese Wikipedia. I've also noticed that there is a vandal on that page and that you constantly warned him with the same warning to not put OR levels there and yet he still continued. Are there no other test warnings on that Wiki? Are there even any administrators on the Portuguese Wikipedia to stop those vandals? By the way, I'm Brazilian! :} Power level (Dragon Ball) 01:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your response! Just one thing, I'll talk to User:Leon in my native language to help him out, but here's the catch: would it be considered sockpuppetry to talk to him using a different username? I don't wanna have Power level (Dragon Ball) as my Brazilian username. It's too wierd... Power level (Dragon Ball) 18:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I trust you on this. Power level (Dragon Ball) 18:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I did it! I lefted a message on his talk page and told him that I was gonna show imageshacks of the Daizenshuu as proof. I hope this works... Oh! By the way, my portuguese username is Justiça Poética. I'm sure you can figure out what it translates to in English... ;} Power level (Dragon Ball) 19:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I left a comment for you on the Portugues wiki on your talk page. Cheers! Power level (Dragon Ball) 19:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR

If you haven't already, please familliarise yourself with our three revert rule. -- Steel 19:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Daizenshuu and Son Goku's height.

Hello, nice to meet you. I'm here to ask you of a question which needs Daizenshuu to be solved. Power level (Dragon Ball) recommended me to ask you because you have Daizenshuu. Of course other users also are welcomed to talk about this together. So here it goes.

There are many opinions about Goku's height. Some say 5'11", some say 6', and others say 6'2". But these are only 'guesses' and I think only Daizenshuu can truly answer to this question.

According to my search on the internet, I got a conclusion that the answer would surely be either 5 feet 7 inches(170.2cm) or 175cm. Here's the reason why I got to think so.

In the US wikipedia site(here), some users strongly insisted and concluded that Son Goku's height is 5'7". They said the English Daizenshuu says so. Therefore, I thought at first, 5'7" would be the answer.

However, as I searched the Japanese websites(I can somewhat speak Japanese), I found an intersting thing. The Japanese wikipedia page claimed Goku's height is 175cm! Every Japanese private DB homepages I went also said Goku's height is 175cm. Not even one exception. Of course wikipedia and the all Japanese homepages could be wrong. But it is very probable that some of those Japanese wikipedia users or Japanese homepage makers too, have Japanese Daizenshuu considering DB was born in Japan and the users and DB site hosts are also greatly interested in Dragonball.

So, I became very confused. What I thought about this is that there could have been an error in translating Japanese Daizenshuu to English Daizenshuu. However, I'm not even sure the English Daizenshuu really is saying that Goku's height is 5'7" and the Japanese Daizenshuu really is saying that Goku's height is 175cm because I don't have any Daizenshuus.

Therefore, I would like you to tell me FULL GROWN GOKU'S HEIGHT as the Daizenshuu says. Thank you very much. --Hilight 02:39, 9 February 2007

[edit] Regarding reversions[2] made on February 11, 2007 to Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows

Warning

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. Cbrown1023 talk 14:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you to be so insistent in writing this warning on my talk page. However I don't want it as I concider it totally undue.
First, it was the result of the personal vandetta of another contributor against me, as he reported the edit war way after everything was ended.
Second, the contributor that reported me has not been warned in any kind, while he was the one who started an edit war, as I've explained in the 3RR notice board: he had reverted me 3 times without any attempt at justifying his edits, without even reading my contributions to the talk page of the article.
Third, you say that "Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. " That's funny because that's exactly what I did.
Before editing anything in the article, I explained in a very detailed way what I thought of the edits needed in the talk page. I quoted various lines from various official Wikipedia policies to back up my claims. However my edits were blindly reverted, and the 2 contributors who did it didn't even bother to read my explanations in the talk page and to answer them. And I'm the one warned, and they get nothing ?
No, no, no, I'm not going to accept to be treated like this, I have been notified, it will show in the history of my personal talk page, however as I personally concider this warning totally undue, and since no one even bothered to take into account my explanations on the 3RR notice board, I will not display it. Folken de Fanel 20:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Did I block you? No. I just gave you a warning because you were one of two editors engaging in edit warring. Which is in most cases totally unacceptable. Futhermore, I also gave the other user a warning as well. I'm not going to accept being treated like this either (well, acutally I am... I don't mind you asking me about this), I could have blocked you for 3RR, but didn't, I only gave you a warning. Thanks, Cbrown1023 talk 20:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Please note that the above is a formal notification by the 3RR Abuse Noticeboard. Cbrown1023 talk 00:28, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deathly Hallows

Hi Folken, I was reading through the now very long and tortuous chat page, and wondered how exactly you would rewrite the offending section about the meaning of hallows. There is a complication which perhaps I am silly to introduce, in that I think the section ought to go back to its original title,'meaning of deathly hallows'. We ought to be explaining 'deathly' also. But if I can put that aside for a moment (though am interested in your views), how would you organise the section, if entirely up to you?

Do you object to having a longer section explaining hallows in legends? I understand that there is at least one other mention of a set of thirteen Arthurian hallows, as distinct to four (according to mugglenet, ahem, they are ahead of us in factual content). I am not convinced that the content here is complete or accurate as it might be. Would you be happy if the section manages to present a range of different hallows? (Though I am not sure there exist any further examples, but perhaps we might say there is a celtic/arthurian set of four, and another Arthurian set of 13?)

Do you object to including a reference to lexicon or others where they present their version of the name meaning? Sandpiper 20:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we need to worry about spam, or advertising, just now. If I may say so, I think we may get more progress if we do not worry too much about the exact meaning of rules just now.
from your reply it might be understood that you know something about relevant legends. Do you?
I think we have an includeable fact that there exist relics of the four hogwarts founders, that Dumbledore said Voldemort was probably seeking relics of each founder and intended to use them as horcruxes, and he has already identified three (sword, cup, locket). Something like this used to be in the 'continuing plotlines' section of the article, as it is just the established main story. It is really just an expansion of the central plot which is pretty clear to everyone, and frankly, not controversial. One of the reasons I did not reinsert it there, was because the point had moved up to the section about 'hallows', and I do not like saying the same thing twice. The article really has to explain this central plot. However, I would judge it is not necessary to mention the word 'horcrux' at all in the section about the meaning of hallows. Just put that bit back where it came from in the plot section. How does this sound to you? Sandpiper 22:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I think that perhaps the article became 'worse' from your POV while the little war was going on, and that you might have felt it better as it was before you intervened, than at the last version presented by michaelsanders?
When you speak about 'Arthurian influences on the story', do you mean specifically connecting the four founder's relics with the arthurian legend relics, or do you mean that other aspects of the Arthurian legend may become part of the story? I personally think it quite likely that Rowling may have used arthurian storylines in her books, but that is irrelevant. I don't think we should be talking about any aspects of these legends other than strictly the existence of hallows. If we can only come up with two examples of hallows, then I would suggest listing the 13 hallows and the four hallows, with references to more information. Sandpiper 22:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Folen, I didn't insert the revisions into the article. This was done by someone who read the arguments and made their own judgement on what was the proper course of action. You are more than welcome to propose your own amendments to the text, and I have twice requested that you do so, but as yet none have appeared. Sandpiper 02:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, okay, I've reverted myself. My apologies; it appeared that you weren't opposed to the new version, but you obviously are. Trebor 07:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Restored Comments, Deathly Hallows

Please be my guest to draw the matter to the attention of anyone you want. I myself showed the section I restored to a friend of mine because I was beginning to wonder whether the debate was stretching credibility. I was glad to find that my own interpretation of your comments was confirmed by the second opinion. Please feel free to restore any further comments you wish, but also please do not selectively edit restored text to alter its meaning. I made no error in comprehending your original postings, which I believe anyone would have understood to mean, insert the piece above, unblock the page, and then we can all continue editing in the normal way. It may be that you did not mean this, but it is certainly what you said. Sandpiper 21:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with you that quoting both sections of the debate between us is preferable to only posting half of it. In fact, if I had had more time when I reinserted the section and its immediate comments, I would have hunted out the rest of the debate, which was elsewhere on the page, and added it too. I don't see that you can claim the section I posted is 'an old debate', since it contains firstly the text in question, and then your comments in response, which are themselves what we discuss in the section which you re-posted. The time delay between the two (perhaps a week) was simply while I waited for any further comments. None appeared.
Now as to the intention of editors. I'm afraid this is pretty much irrelevant. Lots of people do lots of things in the wide world. Why they do them is generally beside the point. It is what they do which counts. Now, in this particular case, you have quoted a lot of rules, which in your opinion preclude certain content on the page in question. However, in my opinion, in most cases you misapply those rules, so that in fact they do not do this. The issue is whether the generally quoted sources for information about HP are sufficiently reputable for their content to be explained here. I believe that they are, as do a number of others including J K Rowling. In general, sources mentioned for this page do not even claim to have 'the answer'. Rather, they are compilation pages - much like our own - which present known facts, which are considered probably important but in an absolute sense uncertain. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wiki presenting uncertain information. It is what is done here all the time. The distinction made is that it is someone else's uncertain information. In this case there is an enormous amount of it, there can be no question that it is noteable, and worthy of inclusion in any article which pretends to be properly explaining the subject.
As to improvement you requested. It is not my business to make your edits for you. Wiki does not take requests, it is open to anyone to submit the text they want. All I did was make an alternate version of the facts which had already been presented, mostly I think by lulurascal, and followed up some of the references given. I was minded to do this at some point anyway, even before your intervention. If you wanted some addition to this text, then it is up to you to do some research and come up with something which can be included. My provisional opinion was that a series of examples of hallowed places was in no way objectionable, provided it was appropriately presented, but that I do not have such a list. So if you want one added, then please produce it. Otherwise we will continue editing as is normal for any article, people add stuff as and when they find it. Wiki articles do not wait for one person to come up with some specific piece of information before continuing to develop elsewhere, especially when the person concerned has already said he has no objections to the rest of the text. Sandpiper 22:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
What can I say, we have a fundamental disagreement. Wiki does present unsubstantiated theories, just so long as they are widely held, or simply widely debated or respected. The issue is not whether something is correct, but whether people believe it. What eventually turns up in HP7 makes no difference to what we write about now. What we write about now is what is known now, and what is believed now. That is no different to any other topic, really. In reality, the chances of Rowling departing from the story which she has already presented is frankly remote, but her actual content really makes no difference to us right now.Sandpiper

No, I am right. Wiki cares not at all whether a theory is right or wrong, whether it is substantiated by sensible research or is frankly ludicrous. All it officially cares about is whether someone else thought of it and it is held by a significant group of people. Sandpiper 20:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black family tree

Hi, I am minded that perhaps I need to explain my edits to details of the text more precisely. to take things in the order they appear in the text.

Observing that the relationship being debated would make James and Sirius 2nd cousins is not OR. It is essentially stating the same information in a different way, but which makes it clearer to the reader why this is important. If James=Charlus' son, then automatically James=Sirius cousin. It makes no assertion not implicit in the relationship being discussed.

'However, J. K. Rowling...'. When I write things I often use 'however', and then reading it over go through and strike them all out as unnecessary repetition. 'However' is used to start a sentence which makes a point which contradicts something said just before in the text. In this case, what Rowling says does not contradict what is stated before. Writing 'J.K Rowling has not commented' is a completely neutral way of stating that she has said nothing. It does not imply she supports the idea, nor that she refutes it. It just explains that she has not commented. If you place a 'however' in front, it implies that Rowling has somehow denied the point going before by not commenting, which is untrue. The neutral form of writing does not attempt to make an argument. Use of 'however' here is incorrect.

'Directly'. Rowling has commented indirectly. An indirect comment is one which says something about the subject under discussion, but does not address the main point. In this case, the main point is whether James is Charlus' son. She has not commented on this. However, she has given a description of James parents, which fits (or arguably fails to fit) Charlus and Dorea. Thus she has commented indirectly on the relationship, because she has given us some information which is relevant to this question. So you cannot write that she has not commented, because that is untrue. She has commented indirectly.

'Currently'. Currently is an unnecessary word which does not add to the text, and implies something not quite accurate. Either Rowling has commented, or she has not. She can not have 'currently' commented today, then tomorrow 'currently' not have commented, then the next day 'currently' have commented again. Currently implies something capable of changing. Yes, she might comment, but then that would be it. She could not then un-comment. Currently is normally used to describe something capable of changing state backwards and forwards. 'Runner number 1 is currently in the lead'. Equally to the point, currently is a tautology, because it only tries to tell us something which the other words in the sentence tell us already. If it says Rowling has not commented, then obviously that is how things are now, the current state. It does not need to say 'she has currently not commented', because that is the the same as just saying 'she has not commented'. Sandpiper 19:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Excuse me

Why did you delete the section I wrote about Cancer Deathmask? I did provide evidence & links to support what I said. Also, I wouldn't exactly call a paragraph about an old cartoon character an, as you put it, "blatant Original Research and personal essay". I happen to be an astrologer myself, & was pointing out one way of many that the show doesn't match true astrology.

[edit] Block

You have been blocked for 24 hours for edit warring on Horcrux. You are also warned about edit warring on Regulus Black. Please take the time to review our WP:3RR policy, and note that a content dispute, or dispute about sourcing, does not justify violating WP:3RR (except in WP:BLP cases, which this is not). I hope you come back to editing with a better understanding of our rules, and refrain from edit warring, even when you are convinced your edits are correct. Thanks, Crum375 19:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Granger Materials

I really can't see what the use of fan theories in article, even if seperated from the main content. I mean, Wikipedia is not supposed to be a crystall ball, right ? Original research cannot be accepted unless it comes from a reliable source, and a reliable source is still self-published material with no fact-checking, right ? So, does this mean Wikipedia has become a new kind of message board dedicated to unsubstanciated theories ? I mean, now it's obvious articles exist only for speculation...Folken de Fanel 21:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Folken - What I told Michael, and what I believe is properly Wiki-encyclopedic and thus allowable, is this...
1 - Michael - just a gentle reminder: stating in the Horcrux article wording like "It has been suggested that Voldemort only discovered that it had been destroyed..." appears to constitute Weasel Wording. As a rule of thumb, if the statement cannot stand alone as factual without opening it with a conditional preamble like Some fans believe... or Critics argue that... or It has been said that..., then it is probably not encyclopedic in terms of the topic under discussion itself. Please review the Avoid Weasel Wording article for some good guidelines. If you are going to add fan and critical opinions to an article, then it probably belongs in a separate "Fan reaction" or "Critical views" section, and not in the main descriptive part of the text, which is supposed to be purely factual and verifiable, defining the topic encyclopedically with a neutral tone. I do not personally have a problem with "us" documenting what a significant portion of the HP fan base might believe, or non-canonical statements that critics might publish, but I believe such matters should be segregated from the definitive description part, which ought to remain purely canonical (from Rowling), and not be infected with outside views without a wall of separation (that is a separate section). I understand you have found a new "reliable source" containing all sorts of original research that we have taken to posting as now "encyclopedic", due to arguments back on the Hallows page. These recent edits are so unlike you that I am a bit startled and confused - I thought someone had hijacked your screen name. Anyway I hope and trust this is not about making a point with other editors who have engaged you in battle over OR and such, which is a practice frowned upon. Thanks for your attention, have a great weekend. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 15:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
2 - Follow Up: I think perhaps the proper way of presenting John Granger's published analyses within the Harry Potter articles would be to present clearly, in-situ, that they are his views, and not necessarily canonical, Rowling-based material. For example, as a parallel, if we were discussing English naturalist Charles Darwin's various theories on evolution, and especially those published in his book On The Origin of Species, and then presented additional different-view material that was not from Darwin but from someone else, but still on the general theory of evolution, then we would write that in a separate contrasting section. Something like this: "Dr. Stephen Jay Gould reworked and extended Darwin's evolutionary principles by revising a key pillar in the central logic of Darwinian evolution, by presenting Punctuated equilibrium in his book The Panda's Thumb... " (and then elucidating on about Gould's variations on Darwin's theories). So for Horcruxes, we could legitimately state something like, (again in a separate section) "Esteemed University Professor John Granger of the Muggle Institute for Advanced Potter Studies suggests in his book Who Killed Albus Dumbledore? that ..." (and then presenting his original theories and analyses). This approach is clearer and more encyclopedic (and probably less antagonizing) than just blurting out his controversial theories mixed right in with the non-controversial canonical Rowling-stated material, and finishing it off with a tiny footnote stating the page number of his new book, which hardly anyone else has a copy of anyway. I'm simply trying to find a way where we can include your thoughts, and how they should be presented for consideration, and yet cut back on the edit reversion / original-research wars, which would seem to be intractable at this point. Thanks again for your attention. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 23:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
This is my interpretation of the Wikipedia policies and guidelines regarding original research as described generally at Attribution. I believe "Self Published" in the Reliable Source section refers to, for example, if Michael published something that was not peer reviewed, and then also posted it on the Wikipedia - as a conflict of interest and perhaps pushing an agenda. It does NOT apply, in my view, to material posted by Michael but openly published by Granger, and thus open to external criticism. We can also perhaps discuss published critical reaction to Granger's work, if there is any. In any case, it should be clearly stated that any Granger-published material is his own, and not canonical and Rowling-approved, and it would be good to segregate it into special sections within the main articles, as I recommended above. The Granger material is clearly original research on the part of Granger (unless he plagiarized from some other source like Dumbledoreisnotdead.com or the MuggleNet), but not on the part of Michael or anyone else who chooses to refer to it. We allow many other articles that contain "original research", like the Darwin-related articles. The Granger material is (apparently) verifiable (although I do not have a copy of the book to check, and currently have no plans to get one), so it presumably meets the verifiability requirement. Neutral point of view is required of Michael the Wiki-editor (and you), not Granger's work, which can certainly be opinionated. It might be good to find some reaction to the Granger material on the various HP web sites that Rowling has acknowledged, to determine Granger's personal reliability as a source, and the plausibility of his conclusions. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 22:24, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Update

OK I must have missed something about Granger's material in the fury of the edit reversion wars. I thought we were discussing posting material from a published book. The Self Published Source section from the Attribution policy states...
A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are usually not acceptable as sources (see Exceptions below).
Exceptions - As mentioned above there are a few specific situations in which a self-published source can be considered reliable. These include...
When a well-known, professional researcher writing within his or her field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as his or her work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications. Editors should exercise caution for two reasons: first, if the information on the professional researcher's blog (or self-published equivalent) is really worth reporting, someone else will have done so; second, the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to any independent form of fact-checking.
If Granger's material is on an essentially personal web site run by Granger, and there is no peer review or other fact-checking (difficult for speculative original research about a fictional Potter universe), then I can see the cause for a strong difference of opinion. I still think we can consider posting Granger's theories in relevant, but they must be demoted to the status of regular (if well organized and sometimes well defended) fan speculation, not expert opinion. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 00:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Michael and Folken and Sandpiper (etc).: The rules for writing articles about fiction are discussed at WP:Notability (fiction) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) and at related articles linked there. Please step back, and take some time to study those policies and guidelines at your earliest convenience. The policy on writing about fiction states: "Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic.". Mr. Granger's work would qualify as sourced analysis, I believe. I agree that Granger's work is speculative and original research, but it is NOT original research or speculative for us to discuss his analyses in the articles, with proper sourcing for verifiability. He is not just any fan, so this does NOT open the door to just anyone posting their original research. The Wikipedia policy not only ALLOWS us to present critical analyses of works of fiction, it essentially REQUIRES us to do so, to make good articles. --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 19:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Horcrux

Folken, just because I haven't replied your screeds today doesn't imply that the issue is over. It isn't, there is no reason for you to begin an edit war there by removing text. Stop it. Rest assured that I will be returning to the discussion once I have dealt with other matters. Michael Sanders 18:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You have been blocked 48 hours

You have been blocked 48 hours for violating the 3 revert rule on Horcrux. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 10:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR (2)

Folken, I've reported you on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR for violation of the 3-revert rule on Horcrux. Michael Sanders 23:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate titles

Hi Folken. I was wandering what information you have regarding what the alternative titles of the book were? Sandpiper 23:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I understood that you placed no faith in anything posted on articles on mugglenet? Either you do consider them reliable, or you do not. Which?
Perhaps you could provide a reference, otherwise I don't see that i can simply take your OR as evidence. Sandpiper 23:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I did go to mugglenet, but I did not find what you claim is there. Thus I am asking you to show me where it says this. Sandpiper 10:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for that. However, the mugglenet article says that Heart of Ravenclaw and Deadly Veil. were recently registered, but were never actual contenders for the title. It mentions Hallows of Hogwarts, but does not comment on whether it was a real contender or not, and does not comment on the status of the titles registered in 2003. So please leave the references to the other two registered titles mentioning hallows in the article. Sandpiper 11:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Th mugglenet article states what it states. It quotes two titles registered by 'field fisher waterhouse', and then says a representativ of someone said thewy had never been contenderras. My source, the book by Langford, quotes the two titles I mention as being registered by 'Seabottom productions' in 2003-2004. I have no idea whether these were valid titles, I merely comment that they were similart and were registered in the past. How anyone came to think them up I have no idea, but I leave it readers of the article to make up their own mind. Which is entirely the correct way to write an article. Neutrally. Sandpiper 11:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 3RR (again)

Just reported you for 3RR violation on Deathly Hallows. Will you stop doing this? How can someone who keeps quoting rules be so forgetfull about this one? Sandpiper 12:35, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

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