Talk:Flint, Michigan

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Not really noteworthy, but Flint is the largest city in the United States with a one syllable name.



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[edit] Objection to photographic content

I agree with the posting at the top featuring Genesee Towers, the Mott Foundation building, and the Arch. The second post, however, of Farrah's Food is objectionable on several counts:

1. Inaccuracy. I believe this site has been demolished.

2. Irrelevence. The image does not enhance the reader's knowledge of the subject in any way. The store could be any abandoned site in any city, prosperous or not.

3. Redaction. The inclusion of a single large photo of blight seems to have editorial intent; to lead viewers to a preconceived conclusion about Flint. (In this case, that Flint is a suffering and/or undesirable community). This is not an article on "urban blight in Flint, Michigan" (though one could be written), but intends to convey information on the city in general.

With these observations in mind, I would like to propose the following alternatives:

INACCURACY. If I'm correct, and the site has been demolished, the image should be removed as an inaccuracy, as well as for the reasons listed below.

IRRELEVENCE. A more suitable choice would be a site mentioned in the article, such as General Motors facilities or a location in a historic neighborhood, which may or may not be abandoned. Selection of such a site would facilitate understanding of the article.

REDACTION. I really don't think editorializing pictures should be included at all; however, if they are, a counterpoint is reasonable. There are many thriving neighborhoods in all areas of Flint, and an image selected therefrom would provide readers with an alternative interpretation.

[edit] Inaccurate Objection

The site may have been demolished, however plenty of Wikipedia websites have historical photos of locations that have since changed.

The photograph was placed near the paragraph which explains Flint's history, how the closure of GM factories affected the surrounding areas. In fact, it does greatly enhance the reader's understanding of the economic hardships Flint has gone through.

[edit] Continuation of objection

The post below, "inaccurate objection" does not hold water. The argument relies on faulty logic, provides no citations for claims made, and does not adequately situate itself within the context of the article on Flint, Michigan.

1. The post claims "plenty of Wikipedia websites have historical photos of locations that have since changed." First, information is readily available for these photos that the site is no longer standing, but this information is not included in the caption on this photo of Farrah's foods. Second, "historic photos" usually denote a place of particular import: ie. a monument, cemetery, or other site of unique and irreplicable significance.

2. The post claims that the photo was placed "near the paragraph which explains Flint's history, how the closure of GM factories affected the surrounding areas." Even very prosperous cities (in the vicinity of Flint, for example, Flushing, Grand Blanc, or Fenton) have vacant and abandoned buildings. The photo, therefore, not only indicates a phenomenon that is not unique to Flint, but that is not unique to depressed communities in general around the nation. It is irrelevent because it does not provide the reader with additional insight into the content of the article.

3. The post claims that, "in fact, it does greatly enhance the reader's understanding of the economic hardships Flint has gone through." There is no support provided for this claim whatsoever. No argument is made as to how the photo enhances any "reader's understanding" nor has any reader (in my perusal of this history) claimed to have had their understanding enhanced. (It will be interesting to see if a new account is suddenly created tomorrow or the day after to extoll the merits of this photo from an objective "outside" perspective). Finally, no connection is established between the photo and Flint's "economic hardships."

4. Lastly, the response to my earlier post does not attempt to address the fact that the photo is editorial in nature, and that the intent of a reference work is not editorialism.

TO THE PHOTOGRAPHER and POSTER: If you're insistant on having a picture of urban decay in Flint in this article, I suggest you get in your car, or on a bus, or take a walk up to Oak Park on the North Side, or the remnants of the Fisher Body Plants on the South or West Side, take a picture, develop the film, scan it, and attach it. I will be inclined to provide myself a counterpoint along the lines of the Cultural Center, Mott, or U of M, but I would not argue for the removal of a more relevant and accurate photo. Alternately, you could more fairly post *this* photo in an article on "urban blight in Flint, Michigan," where it might be more appropriate, or in a different forum altogether, more suited to editorialism.

As a final note, I know that I am on solid editorial footing here. I work at Facts on File, Inc., a reference publishing company as a freelance editor. We have established conventions what is and is not appropriate and applicable to any article, and they adhere the standard within the publishing community. If necessary, I am more than happy to supply a professional opinion on this matter if it will help this issue achieve resolution.

In the meantime, I am more than happy to continue editing out this photo each day for the reasons I've outlined. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blueskiesfalling (talk • contribs) 02:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] invalid objection

Dude. I'm the poster. It's a picture of flint, in an article about flint. Furthermore, the picture fits in with the text how Flint went through "white flight" and financial troubles. It's relevant.

Your point #2 is wrong. Many cities do NOT have abandoned, burned out buildings in the great numbers that flint does. One or two perhaps, but not as many as flint. This photo is representative of that.

What I would like to see is some photos of Flint in a nice area. However, I have yet to find those online. Post them, in addition, if you have them. I don't.

Nobody cares where you work. You also have too much time on your hands. Continue to re-edit the page, and I'll write a script that monitors the page and reverts back the changes. Too bad they didn't teach you how to program in your $40k/year job. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flintoid2005 (talk • contribs) 07:59, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Please stop the reverting for a moment, leave the photo off and sort this out on the talk page. Wikipedia works by consensus.
I think that a photo of blight is relevant as historical and demonstrating something typical of Flint, but the caption should note that the building has been demolished, if indeed it has. However, unless we have Greg Cumberford's explicit permission, we can't use his picture, we'd need another shot of Flint blight - anyone have a good camera? If we do have a photo of blight, a photo of the Flint Institute of Arts (an excellent facility for a city the size of Flint) or something similar might be appropriate for balance.
Note that if this particular image is deleted, it can still be accessed at Cumberford's website. However, since that site only has 2 pictures, I don't think it's good enough to link from Wikipedia. --DDerby-(talk) 16:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] =

"Please stop the reverting for a moment, leave the photo off and sort this out on the talk page. Wikipedia works by.."

Ok. I removed the photo, but personally think it is relevant to the "white flight" and troubles flint went through. What about changing the caption below the photo somewhat, for example "an abandoned store on 3rd ave -- flint has improved since this photo was taken" or something like that?

I do not want to give readers the impression that Flint is entirely delapitated, however, I also do not want the reader to get the impression that Flint is an average middle class town (which it is not -- middle class towns do not have nearly the abundance of ghetto areas that Flint has).

Any thoughts on changing the caption below the photo?

By the way, I emailed Cumberford and he has given me permission to use the photo on wikipedia. Furthermore, his website has 30+ photos, not two photos, and should be linked from wikipeia

Flintoid2005 16:49, 10 November 2005 (UTC)flintoid2005

==

Blue Skies Falling here. I think you misunderstood my original objection. I'm not concerned that readers would form an negative (or positive) opinion of Flint that differs from my own... so it isn't necessary to add a comment that Flint has improved. I'm more concerned that an encyclopedia article should convey information so that readers can form their own opinion, and I just think that there are better ways in which to do this than with that one photo of the abandoned 3rd Avenue store.
I think the best solution would involve photos of an abandoned GM facility, such as the site of Buick City, and an image of the cultural center. In addition to being historically significant, the images would convey a sense of how huge the city's problems, and what solutions have been attempted.
However, I won't object to the photo of Farrahs going back up if its demolition is noted, and if we can put up a picture from the Cultural Center in the near future.
I still haven't heard from the FIA yet. I have some friends who work at Flint Youth Theatre... they might be willing to supply me with some photos.
~ Blue Skies Falling

[edit] Objection

I object to you editing the discussion section, in addition to removing the photograph posted.

I did not edit the discussion section. The moderator (DDerby) did, and left a note below with suggestions on how to resolve this dispute. I find the suggestions reasonable, and have emailed the FIA to see if they will consider supplying an image.
Incidentally, I don't make 40K, nor do I see how that observation is relevant to anything. May we continue this discussion on the talk page so that we won't continue cluttering the discussion page? ~ BlueSkiesFalling

[edit] Request for assistance from a citizen of Flint!

Hello - the article on Michael Moore is in need of some assistance from anyone living in or near Flint Michigan, specifically the Seventh Judicial Circuit Court which is located at: 900 S. Saginaw St. Flint, MI 48502 - If you live in the area and would be willing to visit the court and review (and hopefully photocopy and scan) a few documents for us that would be most helpful. For details contact me or visit the Lawsuits section of the Michael Moore Discussion page. Michael A. 06:39, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Kearsley and Carman Ainsworth

I have noticed that there is some controversy of Kearsley and Carman-Ainsworth schools being included on the list of Flint schools. I have searched for district maps, and have yet to find any definitive boundaries ... Does anyone have source information on if these districts have zones within the city limits? --Jon Cates 22:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Kearsley is in Kearsley, and Carman-Ainsworth is the amalgation of the two Flint Township highschools (Carmen and Ainsworth). Neither of them come into the city, but their districts border it. -Chris5369 :12 PM, EST 12/09/05

Does anyone have direct outline maps of the district boundaries? I do know that some districts cross areas ... I believe Atherton is one of those who has land in the City of Flint, and where residents of the city are actually residents of the non-Flint school district. And if I am not mistaken there is no such thing as Kearsley, Michigan ... Kearsley is in Flint, Burton, and Genesee Townships if I am not mistaken. Jon Cates 22:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Suburban districts do not encroach upon Flint City. The Kearsley district includes parts of Genesee Township and Burton.
Connor Coyne


I graduated from Carman back in the day when it was just Carman and Ainsworth(less) was our bitter rival. Carman is NOT in Flint. It is indeed in Flint township.

[edit] high schools in Flint

Per these links [1], [2], Carmain-Ainsworth and Kearsley high schools are not in Flint proper. I don't think Beecher is, either; could someone confirm that and remove it or reply here that it is in the actual city? --DDerby-(talk) 20:46, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

At those pages ... did you see any specific demarkation of boundaries? The majority of zip codes (Kearsley) they use are City of Flint codes ... 48506 which is East City of Flint. ___ as for Carman [3], they clearly state their residents are in the City of Flint. Jon Cates 22:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Flint's zip codes extend far outside of the city. Hopefully Blue Skies Falling will get some good solid map information for us. --DDerby-(talk) 10:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I found a map through the Genesee Intermediate District below. Notes follow at bottom. The url is http://www.geneseeisd.org/schools/const_map.htm. Thanks! ~ Blue Skies Falling
The Flint School District is the only public school district within Flint City Limits.
Beecher is an unincorporated community (CDF?) with its own school district. Adjacent school districts are drawn mainly (though not exclusively) along township lines: Kearsley school district for Genesee Township, Bendle, Atherton, and Bentley districts for Burton, the Carman-Ainsworth district for Flint Township, and the Westwood Heights district for Mount Morris Township.
I have official documentation of this in Michigan, and will provide concrete citations when I am able to visit in the next few weeks.
~ Blue Skies Falling.

Is there a way to clarify this? Pursuant to the School District, and maps I have seen, the district lines of Carman-Ainsworth clearly encroaches on the City of Flint. While their schools are not in the city limits, if any citizens of the City of Flint pay property taxes to the school district, then they should be listed as being in the City of Flint. School districts often cross geo-political lines (Grand Blanc Schools are clearly in the City and Township of Grand Blanc, and also in the City of Burton). Jon Cates 03:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

The following map (source Genesee Intermediate School District) clearly illustrates the boundaries of all public school districts based in Genesee country, and that suburban districts are not present in the City of Flint.
Recent edits have suggested that multiple districts are "in" Flint. This is not correct. Flint Township (see separate Wikipedia article) is not synonimous with Flint City. The Flint Public Schools are the sole established public district *within* city limits.
In the case of Genesee County, there are cases of districts crossing political lines, as mentioned with Grand Blanc City and Township, as well as cases where districts have expanded irregularity, and so have a large degree of political variance: examples would be the three Burton districts (Bendle, Bentley, and Atherton) or Swartz Creek and Flushing districts. However, Flint is not one of these exceptions.
Additionally, Powers Catholic is in Mount Morris Township, not Flint, and is operated by the Diocese of Lansing.
http://www.geneseeisd.org/schools/const_map.htm
~ Blue Skies Falling
Powers has a Flint address. Monut Morris Township is not in Flint.
Postal jurisdiction does not correspond to municipal district; especially in cases of Township. In the present case, for example, Genesee Valley, etc., and apple orchards on Coldwater road will have a Flint address. This is not correspondent to the political entity of the City of Flint.
~ Blue Skies Falling

The map that you reference does not have geo-political boundaries marked on it and can not be utilized. As the City of Flint is not as shown as that map (it does not include any portion near Bishop International Airport, which is contiguous with the City of Flint and in the City of Flint ... As with Powers, I feel that the proper notation should be "there are also a number of private schools within the City of Flint" as this would include the Valley School, and others...

The map is exactly continuous with geopolitical boundaries with the sole exception of Kearsley Reservoir (on the northeast side) and Bishop Airport (on the southwest). These, however, are not residential areas, and the boundaries of Bishop Airport and Reservoir conform exactly to the city limits. Also, as mentioned, Powers is not in city limits, and I really think that the burden of rigorous proof should be to definitively demonstrate a school's grouping in a district.
That being said, I have no objection to the citation recommended above, as it does not specify the status of districts that we have not verified.
~ Blue Skies Falling
Here's a better map showing the boundaries of Beecher/Westwood Heights, et al. from the Mt. Morris Township website
http://www.mtmorristwp.org/index.php?id=16&type=1
Just to put it to rest, you can see Powers is just outside the city limits (in the Beecher district). I'm changing the wording so it doesn't imply Powers is actually in the city. Maybe it shouldn't be mentioned at all? Crv1 07:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Beecher is in Flint but is not part of the Flint Schools District. Bewecher school straddles the line of Flint/Mount Morris cities but is in Flint. I went there, I should know. Westwood Heights is no relation to Beecher or Mount Morris, it is its own district. Powers is not a Beecher district school, it is is it's own thing, and it is a private school.
Some of this in incorrect.
1) It is incorrect that Beecher is in Flint. Beecher is a Census Designated Place (eg. a recognized community without political incorporation) located within the political entity of Mount Morris Township: http://www.census.gov/geo/www/cob/pl_metadata.html#cdp, http://www.census.gov/geo/www/GARM/Ch9GARM.pdf).
2) Mount Morris Township borders on, but is not part of Flint. Carpenter Road marks the northern city limits of Flint (http://pics2.city-data.com/city/maps2/cm178.gif, http://www.cityofflint.com/clerk/images/ward-precinct.gif). Carpenter Road marks the southern limits of Mount Morris Township (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ReferenceMapFramesetServlet?_bm=y&-rm_config=|b=84|l=en|t=420|zf=0.0|ms=ref_legal_05pep|dw=1.9557697048764706E7|dh=1.4455689123E7|dt=gov.census.aff.domain.map.LSRMapExtent|if=gif|cx=-1159354.4733499996|cy=7122022.5|zl=10|pz=10|bo=1499:1455:1473:1485:1453:1503|bl=1500:1456:1474:1486:1454:1504|ft=1495:1501:1505:1449:1463:1469:1481|fl=1496:1502:1506:1450:1464:1470:1482|g=01000US&-redoLog=false&-_lang=en&-_caller=geoselect&-geo_id=86000US48504).
3) It is correct that the Beecher school district is directly across boundary lines of the Flint School district and that it is not related to Westwood Heights or Mount Morris Consolidated Schools: http://www.geneseeisd.org/images/lea_map.gif. The article, however, does not confuse this issue.
4) The article already states that Powers is private (actually, it should probably say that it is parochial). Powers is located in the Beecher school district, just as St. John Vianny or the Valley school are private/parochial schools located in the Flint School District. For a private school, location does not imply that students are drawn from that area, or that the school is a member institution, but public school districts are drawn along geo/political lines and do not except private schools.
~ Blue Skies Falling
Blue Skies Falling is mostly correct. Carpenter Road is the boundary line for most of Flint. You'll notice though that there is a tiny cutout north of Carpenter between Clio and Dupont -- that cutout seems to correspond to the location of the Powers school. However, regardless of the actual physical location of the school, since it is a private school, it can accept students from any municipality--it is not bound in any way by public school districts. older ≠ wiser 13:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Bkonrad; you're right about the extension of city limits. They do not, however, correspond to Powers, but to Northwestern Edison High school, which is directly adjacent to Powers. I should have mentioned that. Actually, the summary for the official Powers website is "Grades 9-12, located in Mt. Morris Twp." Also, their address is "G-2040 W. Carpenter Road" which indicates Genesee County unincorporated.
~ Blue Skies Falling

[edit] Racial diversity on the Eastside

I originally put in a post stating that the Eastside was rapidly diversifying, meaning that the diversity of the neighborhood as a whole has increased at an accellerated rate. A recent edit specified that the meaning of this was that the neighborhood was the center of the Hispanic community. This is correct, however, it does not specify the original meaning of diversification. I confirmed this with the US Census, tracks 22, 23, and 26 (those corresponding to the Eastside Proper (State Streets) - bordered by the Flint River, Robert T. Longway, and Dort Hwy). It indicated that between the years 1990 and 2000, the white population declined from 92.8% to 83.4%. The Hispanic population, while larger than elsewhere in Flint only increased to 7.3% to 8.9% (remember that in US census, "Hispanic" is a language designation, not a racial designation). The black population in that area increased most significantly from 1.1% to 5.5%, the number of American Indians remained steady, and the Asian population increased from none recorded in 1990 to 94 persond (or .9%)

This is what I meant by diversification. It's worth including in this article because while Flint is reasonably diverse on the whole, it is also considered to be highly segregated (US census). While the Eastside has not been marked by rapid "white flight," the US Census figures suggest that it is becoming, on the whole, a more diverse neighborhood.

~ Blue Skies Falling


[edit] Help write entries on Flint neighborhoods.

Flint supposedly has over 70 neighborhood organizations (I know I've read this in literature from an area nonprofit, and it's also been cited in the Flint Journal, though I cannot recall where or when). East Village Magazine reports on the goings on in dozens of these: North Pointe, Metawaneemee Vineland Village, East Village, Hurley East Village, Flint West Village, Bonner Park, the North Side, the South Side, Sigar Hill, Kent Park, Elm Park, Thrift City, Atherton East, the Cody School Neighborhood, Central Park, Windiate Park, Woocroft, the Eastside, the Westside, Carriage Town, the 3rd Avenue Neighborhood; the list goes on and on.

I'm interested in building articles for these neighborhoods; between Flint Journal articles, U.S. census data, CVB releases, East Village Magazine, and other sources like books by Rhoda Sanders, Ann Letheridge, and Stephen Dandaneau, there should be ample material to get started on this. But because there are so many defined neighborhoods to write about, and because many of the sources will be archived or out of circulation (I'm in Brooklyn now, so I have very limited access myself), I'll need a lot of help with this. Is anyone interested in helping?

I started with a very basic article on East Village, Flint but it wants citations and it very spare at the moment. Anyway, please help in any way you are interested.

~ Blue Skies Falling

I live in the Flint area and would happily help with this article. I see I am going to have great fun trying to explain school districts!! :) mseames Mseames

[edit] Infobox Photo of Flint

Can someone get a better photo of downtown preferably taken either at night or in daylight? The current photo isn't very flattering. --Criticalthinker 04:09, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Automotive history removal

Can the long, poorly edited information on the history of the auto industry be segregated out of the History section? Possibly a short summary put into the history section and then a whole new page for "Auto Industry of Flint". Any objections?

~~ clintp

I agree with clintp. While the information is specific and relevant to Flint's auto industry (and thereby worthy of its own article) it overwhelms the rest of the article, and would not be of use to someone looking for a broad overview of the city.
BlueSkiesFalling 08:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Moved to Flint, Michigan Auto Industry page, the Flint history page has been edited.
~~clintp
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