User talk:FlavrSavr

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[edit] got the note

I know you are right FlavrSavr. The problem is that I have very little available time, and I don't even know how to make something bold or italic on Wikipedia. I will search for that. Thanks I sterbinski 17:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] You will want to translate this

If you would like to start things in the direction of mutual understanding, translate this article: http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE_%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B2%D1%8A%D1%80%D1%85%D1%83_%D0%B1%D1%8A%D0%BB%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BA

With your help, I would generate a corresponding article, "Serbian Influence on Macedonian", which would then be translated (verbatim) onto BG.Wiki. --VKokielov 00:48, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you for responding

I, as a foreigner, will say this: the Bulgarians haven't clean hands; they are as much a piece of the dirty Balkans as the rest. But I can't judge any of you. I can only suggest; and I suggest that, in the coming times in the Balkans, the Bulgarians will be your closest allies - if they can be persuaded off their rhetoric. That is not impossible; this is a war of words, not of bullets. Otherwise, whom would you rather have on your side - the Greeks, the Serbs, or the Bulgarians?

It seems ridiculous to me that this rhetoric stands between you and Bulgaria. It seems ridiculous to me that the Bulgarians are pressing against a very simple demand of yours, and it seems ridiculous that the Macedonians respond, like the last fools on Earth, with nonsense that angers the Bulgarians so. Do you know why the Jews survived all this time? A European Jew was nothing like an Arabic Jew; a European Jew might kill an Arabic Jew in war; but when the question came to Israel, a Jew was just a Jew. This has only the following to do with your question: it proves that together is better than apart. --VKokielov 16:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I haven't offended, I hope?

..? --VKokielov 17:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

If I have, I'm sorry. --VKokielov 22:24, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you for answering

and I'm also not Bulgarian.  :) --VKokielov 01:53, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Macedonia(ns)/disclaimer poll

I have already attempted to appeal to the common sense on this issue, and the only answer I was met with was blanking the talk page. Calls for external review failed miserably, as they had in the past. Let's face it, if you are overrun by the chauvinists that simply revert every your attempt to write objectively about Macedonia, its people, language, culture, or history, without bothering even to talk to you, there is not much you can do. Rather than fighting the windmills, I prefer to contribute useful information on other topics, either less attractive to trolls and cranks, or lucky enough to have a number of reasonable editors that care about them. Let's just hope that some day some administrator will become determined enough to clean this mess. I'm sorry for being so cynical... *sigh* -- Naive cynic 20:27, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

  • Hi, just a head's up, although you're likely already aware, that a new group of admins and neutral users are trying to clean up and NPOV the various Macedonia-related articles. Yours, Friejose 22:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the lengthy response on my talk page. I've been logged onto Wikipedia way too much lately while at work, and I'm going to dial it back today, so this won't be a long message. But I appreciate what you are saying, and I think it is my duty as a Wikipedian for articles to be as NPOV as possible, even if that means imbroiling myself in a centuries-long dispute amongst Balkans! Sometimes it feels like everybody thinks that Kosovo Polje happened in 1989, not 1389! I think the most important thing you said, however, was that you recognized your own biases and POV. I just wish that some of the coterie of users pushing POV would do the same. Thanks again, Friejose 12:54, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Гледај ова

http://bg.wikibooks.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8_%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BE%D1%82_%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD_%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BA#.D1.8A --VKokielov 03:31, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Macedonia (maybe I should just shut up about the topic)

I have replied on my own talkpage; regards, dab (ᛏ) 14:11, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conflict

As far as I can tell, the Naming conflict page is a sensible piece of work that is well put-together and has received a lot of comment. So yes, I'd say it qualifies as a guideline. However, that's not a strict policy, I'm afraid. If I understand you correctly, the issue is that the article "Macedonian Slavs" is perceived as wrongly named by, among others, you, because that term is deemed offensive, and you would prefer it named "Macedonians". Yet several people dispute that, as evidenced by the somewhat sock-infested poll. And there was a small majority for your preference. Hm, ugly mess. I'm afraid in such a situation you cannot just invoke a guideline like this and claim it makes you right. However, given that the poll was two months ago and there has been substantial discussion since, and you have new evidence (amongst which, this guideline) it may be best to list it on WP:RM and WP:RFC, discuss briefly (since I think everything has been said already) and have a new poll. Not that I particularly like polls but I can't think of a better solution in a binary situation like this. Radiant_>|< 15:16, August 30, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] hello!

First of all I'd like to make some suggestions: Let the name-thing cool off for a while, it didn't even pass 2 months since that big voting. Try to expand articles that are relevant to your country and won't be regarded as controversial by anyone. When you want to say something about a certain user it seems more polite, to me, to say it directly to him than to leave his username in various discussions that he might, or might not, see.

Anonymous 65.94.117.169 (talk • contribs) also vandalised other places. I've reported him, but an admin (don't remember the name right now) didn't block him until he tries to vandalise again, cause that user didn't get a warning, or something like that. You may want to check his contribs. I've also reported Via Egnatia and a strange move of an article by a guy.I'm reading again and again the discussions on all those articles about Macedonia and the poll comments, and I try to see your side too, perhaps you can do the same.

With my regards, MATIA 23:52, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

I really doubt about the stalking thing. I've been seeing your comments and you probably have seen some comments I left too, and that's easily explained because we share the interest in macedonia related articles. I had left some comments on Talk:Macedonian denar the other day, perhaps you d'like to check them.

Of course I won't dictate your moves, but I was thinking something longer than a week, but that doesn't really matter. I think both mediation and RfC should be done. The problem is that the neutral guys, apart from having very much patience, must be willing to search for all the resources they can, to understand the bigger picture.

By the way I had seen some artwork, pop art I think, and I really liked many pictures, but I didn't have the chance before to tell you that.

Perhaps I could leave you some notes about the name issue, my answers on your questions (more or less you have expressed the same questions on the big poll too), and we could share some thoughts about it. I don't know if you 're interested and I certainly don't want (and I dont believe I can either) too change your mind or your views. It's just that I believe that consensus is more about co-operation than about votings.

With my regards, MATIA 08:15, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitration for User:Theathenae

A petition for Arbitration has been brought against User:Theathenae because of his behavior in the Talk:Arvanites dispute. You can add evidence if you wish here. REX 14:40, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Document ;)

Hi again.

The BG administrator asked me to move it here: [1].

Apparently, you have a domain. --VKokielov 21:21, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Hello

I perfectly understand why you can't participate in the Arvanites debate. Don't worry about it. I would like to point out something. The Greek authorities really do consider Greece to be 100% Greek. The only recognised minority are the Turks of Thrace. According to the Greek government these people are not Turks and never refer to them as Turks, nor do they refer to their language as Turkish. They refer to them as (Greek) Muslims; so in effect, according to the Greek government Greece is 100% ethnically Greek and 88.7% Christian and 1.3% Muslim. Is that ridiculous or is that ridiculous? I mean even Iraq recognises its ethnic and religious minorities! So, putting this Nazi POV about ethnic purity of the Greek Volk aside I would like to point out that the Helsinki Report on Human rights says that government pressure has forced the various (officially inexistent) ethnic/linguistic minorities to refer to themselves in a different way from their corresponding nation-state. Albanian speakers in Greece refer to themselves as Arvanites to deemphasise their historic/linguistic links with Albania; Romanian speakers in Greece refer to themselves as Vlachs to deemphasise their historic/linguistic links with Romania; Turkish speakers in Greece refer to themselves as Muslims to deemphasise their linguistic/historic links with Turkey etc. What is interesting is that these people were identified with their respective nationalities before the Greek state was established. There is a Greek proverb which goes: Μην κρύβεσαι πίσω από το δάκτυλό σου: Ming grivese piso apo to dhaktilo su which means don't hide behind your finger (ie you are just fooling yourself). This is exactly what the Greek government is doing. I mean, everybody knows that these minorities exist and everybody knows their linguistic/historic links with their respective nation-state, why doesn't the Greek government? As for Theathenae's (and the entire Greek POV pushing establishment on Wikipedia) double standards are well known by now. If (in Theathenae's example) by calling the Arvanites Albanians we are denying the Arvanite's right to nationhood and self-determination, why doesn't that apply to the Macedonians? Personally, I believe that even the article name Republic of Macedonia is insulting to some Macedonians. Normally it should be called Macedonia (country). I mean, the USA has a state called Georgia. That doesn't stop the country having an article about the country called Georgia (country) does it? Also, I don’t really like the fact that the name Macedonia equals (the of questionable sexuality) Alexander the Great. There is more to Macedonia than just him! The literature, the history, the beautiful beaches etc. Also, I don’t know if this is inaccurate, but isn't Ancient Macedonia referred to in English as Macedon, not Macedonia?

Anyway, to stop beating around the bush, I agree with your saying that Greek supremism is too strong on Wikipedia. This is probably due to the fact that the other Balkan nationalities don't use the Internet as much as the Greeks and because at Greek schools this POV is embedded firmly in the students' mind (I've been there, I know). You can consider me an ally of yours in promoting NPOV on Wikipedia. I also believe that you shouldn't focus on just one or two articles. It is better to focus on more than one because it takes your mind of frustration that unfair POV pushing causes. Because I know that this message of mine is going to be read by everyone, if you wish to let me know something confidential, don't hesitate to e-mail me. Best regards, REX 20:33, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Official languages of FYROM

Languages such as Bosnian, Serbian, and Turkish have official status in some municipalities. Could you tell me all the languages that have official status in any municipality? I'm tying to find out for the list of official languages by state page. Thanks! – Zntrip 04:28, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, but on the country page not all the official languages are listed. Do you know all of the official languages and which municipalities have official languages? Please tell me if you know. Thanks! If I am confusing you check the list of official languages by state page for the formatting. – Zntrip 23:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much, you have been a big help. :) – Zntrip 03:00, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] beware the Greeks

Hello FlavrSavr. You had written a list: Milcho Manchevski, Petar Naumoski, Vlatko Stefanovski, Mike Zafirovski, Goran Stefanovski, Boris Trajanov. I would suggest to write the articles about those people, (as I've told you before, I think it's a good idea to expand articles that are relevant to your country and won't be regarded as controversial by anyone).

I 've been accussed of double standards and I've been called many things and I'm not sure if I should try to ignore this situation, or go for a RFC or ArbCom. If you have any suggestions, perhaps as an admin on mk.wp you have dealed with similar situations, let me know.

If I had double standards, or if my way of working here in WP had similarities with... well, you know who, then I would say (for example) that Macedonian language doesn't exist, it's a Bulgarian dialect. What I did say, as you'll probably remember from our discussions, before, during, and after that big poll, is that I disagree with the term Macedonia (so to continue my example, I believe that macedonian language, is a language, and I believed you that you said you have difficulties to speak with a bulgarian but you could read a book).

As for the term Macedonian Slavs, first of all I don't like this term. The examples you gave didn't convince me that it is an offending term, but made me understand that this is a not-favorable term for your people. I believe that the paragraph (the one that is deleted and re-inserted in that article) should be changed or rephrased. I think you can describe better than me how this term was or is used in the history of your nation.

Anyway this is getting big, so I'll stop here. I'll be available for any clarifications. PS the title is self-sarcastic (it has something to do with the Trojan War, it's from Illiad or Aeniad). Oh, and you can use low quality scans of a cd or a LP cover for photo of a musician. And you may want to check this. +MATIA ☎ 16:46, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Beware Greek POV, it is everywhere. REX 17:47, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

FlavrSavr, I think you should find an alternative to Macedonians Slavs, similar to Macedonians Greeks. Macedonian Greeks are Greek nationality and/or citizenship and they have the label Greeks, and while we don't find this label insulting, we don't really like it but try to get along. Perhaps you can work something out, considering that your people are (fY-)RoM nationality and/or citizenship (see also Macedonians (ethnic group)).

I really believe you should try to expand articles about contemporary people of your country - like those artists you 've mentioned. If I knew about them, I would surely have writen those articles.

You may know better the history of your people, so I thought you could rephrase that paragraph to be more accurate or whatever. I believe it should be included since a) those politicians did use that term b) some commercial encyclopedia used that term (others until few years ago, other until a decade ago, etc) and c) I can't understand why its addition is prescriptive while it's removal is not. Anyway if you can suggest alternative phrasings it would be nice.

I didn't mean that you called me anything. I've asked for suggestions regarding personal attacks against me by another user, because I thought that you might had to solve similar issues on mk.wikipedia. +MATIA ☎ 08:37, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Human Rights in Greece

Wanna learn more about the appaling state of Human Rights in Greece FlavrSavr? Get a load of these:

And there's more:

Honestly, if Greece wants to call herself European, then she will have to observe the European Convention on Human Rights. At time like this I'm so happy that I'm not in Greece and being subject to gross inhuman RACIST Human Rights violations. It is so nice here in the United Kingdom where the European Charter has been incorporated into domestic law Human Rights Act 1998. The Greeks are RACISTS! REX 13:49, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia

Fact. Not a majority, but certainly a minority. Bulgaria would like to own that half. If you're concerned about my intentions, see the conflict at Slavic Macedonian Culture. You'll notice I've reverted the Greek users several times. freestylefrappe 02:25, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

and I will shortly continue. I even grabbed Blaze Koneski's book -- and Ju. Maslov's. --VKokielov 03:39, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ...who are holding gifts

I've told Wiglaf to check the page while talking at Talk:Ancient Macedonian language :) I still believe that you should write those articles (about the tenor singer etc). +MATIA ☎ 21:09, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you may want to talk to User:Bomac about WP policies - I've told him before about NPA, now he moved Macedonian Slavs (perhaps you can explain him about reaching a consensus). Also somebody jumped in during the last days and moved Macedonia to Macedonia region, but I haven't figured out yet what exactly happen (nor have I seen anywhere any talk about it).+MATIA ☎ 14:40, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
thanks. +MATIA ☎

i would only object to a premature med. i was hoping that the rfc you filed would work out, and I talked with Zocky, and tried to get more neutral admins to check it out. i don't know if i'll be around. take care. ps I do remember of commenting before about med. but i am unable to find my comment with all those pa etc. +MATIA ☎ 00:42, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate all your answers. Yesterday I erased my previous comment here because I had understood (sometime earlier) that you couldn't do anything about it or about the other thing I've asked you. Hope you 'll achieve something fair with the issues you're involved and I 'm rather indifferent about the issues I'm involved. Take care. +MATIA ☎ 08:14, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Albanians in Macedonia

Hi Jakoski, you wrote me a message on my talk page (User talk:Kosovar) with regards to the articles concerned with Albanians in Macedonia.

I read both, Albanians_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia and Macedonian_NLA articles, and I agree that the former does need editing and the latter can be improved. I think the problem with both these articles is that they are very out-of-date and need some updating. A lot of things have changed since these articles were first written, and more importantly these changes have improved the relations between Albanians and Macedonians. I think the edits we will make should reflect this improved situation.

However, I would like to add that I am a Kosovar Albanian, i.e. I am not from Macedonia, so, I may not know issues in detail as much as I would like. In short, I am happy to work together with you on improving the articles that deal with Albanians and Macedonians, however, I am a student and at times I do not have much free time.

Let me know what you want to do first. We can select one article and work on it until both sides are happy and feel the articles is not POV.

Many thanks and I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards, --Kosovar 19:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ed Poor is on WikiBreak...

I saw that you left him a long complicated message, but he's already incredibly stressed, so please look elsewhere for assistance in resolving your dispute. Mamawrites & listens 10:45, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you could try Wikipedia:Third opinion or Wikipedia:Association of Members' Advocates or Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal? Mamawrites & listens 11:17, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Hello

Hi, no I wasn't referring to you. There however have been personal attacks from users of the same nationality as you (I won't name anyone), but then again there have been people behaving like that from all groups. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 17:31, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Check

Please check your e-mail. REX 08:19, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Votes needed

There is a poll going on at Talk:Arvanitic language#Requested move to move Arvanitic language to Arvanitic (linguistics), to reflect the fact that its status as a language or dialect is disputed. This is done in all other similar cases (Flemish (linguistics), Mandarin (linguistics) etc). Please vote support if you support the move. Rex(talk) 15:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Urgent votes needed

Hello, there is another vote going on at Talk:Arvanitic language#Compromise 2. I'd recommend Arvanitic as it is the English name, it does not prescribe whether it is a dialect or not (it also doesn't offend anyone) and above all, it is only 9 letters long (very easy to type in an address bar) and very easy to link to. Rex(talk) 19:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

You have my wishes to get well. +MATIA ☎ 23:04, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

If you read my previous comments here then you'll understand why I was disappointed by the move in a night and by your participation in my effort to stop being called a far right greek extremist. The only good thing is that the ArbCom proposed decision is a heavy warning (with blocks) for PA, against me, REX and Theathenae. The bad things... well... let's leave it for now. Take care. +MATIA ☎ 14:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I'm sorry... :)

We're fucked up, we Eastern people. We have these guilt complexes God knows from where.

I wonder if it's hereditary.

--VKokielov 14:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] news

As I had anticipated, the renaming to Macedonians ethnic group, caused disambiguation problems. And apart from messing the Mac*disambiguation pages, the latest news is that some editors go to various Greek articles, and either pov-push (too much) or put in articles like Macedonia (Greece) wikilink to your people as Macedonians. I've tried changing them to Slavic Macedonians, (in contrast or comparison with Greek Macedonians) and got reverted repeatedly. Any suggestions? +MATIA ☎ 21:08, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Interesting comments (seen Edessa too). The thing is that there is an interest of some users to add for example a RoM name in Edessa, but deny anything about former Greek names elsewhere. And apart from that interest, there's an imballance, for example listing Simovski at Macedonia (Greece), but if someone check the Demographics of Macedonia he would understand that Simovski is certainly not the most accurate source for early 20th century statistics. As for what certain editors feelings may be regarding teritorial claims, perhaps their user page is a better source than their edits. Anyway, I'll probably take a long wikibreak. Take care. +MATIA ☎ 18:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Translation

I's sorry, but i couldn't 100% understand Miskin's comment. I think he was saying something about "if i live in greece....talk Greek......". But let me clarify something. I do not speak Greek. I was not born in Greece, I was born and living in Canada. My parents are Macedonians and were born in the Greek part of Macedonia. They speak broken Greek for the reason that Macedonian is mostly spoken in the Northern Greek districts. So I couldn't fully translate what ever he said. But if you do find out what it means, please feel free to tell me. Warm regards: Makedon45


[edit] You aren`t Macedonians

Hi FlavrSavr,

Your country name aren`t Republic of Macedonia¤(Macedonian: Република Македонија) but is the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) (Macedonian: Поранешна Југословенска Република Македонија (ПЈРМ))

You aren`t Macedonians,I´m one !!!

You are former Yugoslav Bulgar (Fyromian) ,I`m not one!!!

Thanks! :-D --84.164.139.2 16:18, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

How witty of you! --FlavrSavr 16:20, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

LOL! :) — sorry I couldn't help laughing — his inviolable logic just cut through all my arguments! :) - FrancisTyers 19:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Благодарност

Фала, FlavrSavr за ревертот на вандализмот на мојата корисничка страна. Поздрав Bomac 16:43, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for reverting the vandalism on my user page: Macedonia

Hi Slobodan. Thanks for reverting the vandalism from my user page. Cheers!Bitola 17:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Re: Amazing photo of Ohrid

Thanks for the compliment and for the invitation to contribute in the DevianArt and Macedonian Wikipedia sites. I'm planning to contribute there as well in the future. Поздрав! Bitola 16:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bogdan and other stuff

Remember when Bogdan ignored some of your posts on his talk page? Nevermind, he's just anti-social:User talk:Bogdangiusca#Warning, dear Readers. On another topic, I am skeptical of the Bulgarian views these days (before, I think I was influenced by the Romanian vs Moldovan situation---in that case, you know, it was an artificial division imposed by Soviets; to be quite honest, I sympathised with the Bulgarians, but in the Bulgarian vs Macedonian case, the languages have real differences:Macedonian language vs Bulgarian language). I hardly get involved in Macedonians (ethnic group) lately, but I'm still going to look for suitable references (if any exist) that would support the claim that Old Macedonians were still around as an XMK-speaking ethnic group in those days. Some Macedonian editors get real hostile whenever other editors remove that claim---but it is not sourced with usable references, and it has to be removed till it is. Alexander 007 14:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can youl help me?

Hey FlavrSavr. Since the last few weeks I was involved in a revert war on the English wikipedia on articles on cites in Northern Greece. I have continually by myself keep adding the Macedonian name of these cities right beside the Greek name in the Florina, Kastoria, Grevena, Kozani, Ptolemaida, Edessa, Greece, Kilkis, Naoussa, Nigrita, Veria, Serres, Greece, Drama, Greece, and Kavala articles. Unfortunatly, Greek users have outnumbered me and are replacing "Macedonian" with South Slavic, Slavic, Turkish, Bulgarian, or are deleting that part as a whole. I would deeply apreciate if you can back me up and support me on these articles. Fala, Macedonia

[edit] Allright :)

Hey flavrSavr, I just noticed your discussion on the Macedonian language talk page from Jan 4 (sorry for the wait) about my edit on the phrase Sho praysh, orait sum. Well, sorry to cause confusion but thats what we (from Aegean Macedonia) say. Its rare to see someone say kako si, dobro in Lerin for the reason that many Macedonians in Aegean Macedonian feel that its too close to what the former Yugoslavs said (not to be mean or anything, but this was the point of view of the majority of Macedonians from Greece, besides, dobro is the same in serbian and croation). Therefore they strongly used their (Southern, Aegean, Greek, what ever you want to call it) Macedonian dialect as a way to be "unrelated" to Yugoslavia or "unnoticed" by Greek nationalists (someone speaking in the Skopje dialect would have got attention like a foriegner rather then someone speaking the local dialect). What I mean by dialect is that we in Aegean Macedonia say Sho, rather then Shto, and it seems we have lost the "v" sound, ex. glavi = glaj, glava = gla, or in this case: pravish = praysh. So over the years we have adopted many words different then the ones you speak. Really Sho praysh means "what are you doing" but we use it as "how are you", and we say "orait" (fine), "orait sum" (Im fine), "ne si orait" (Im not fine/not doing well), etc. I know orait sounds like english all right, but its not from english, its one of the few unique Macedonian words that we have still preserved in the Macedonian language for centuries, and I will apreciate you not laughing at our vocabulary (I notice that dictionaries from the republic of macedonia are 100% matchable to the "official" language of the republic of Macedonia, the language spoken in Skopje) thinking that the Skopje dialect is the "dominating" language for all Macedonians. - user: Macedonia


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Gee, I've uploaded that like some year ago, and totally forgot about the source, and I didn't know much about image tagging back then. I think I've downloaded it from FOTW, but I browsed to find it - it isn't there. I Googled a bit, but I didn't find the source, so you might as well delete it. I'm still not sure how is it possible for a country flag be copyrighted, though, maybe we should tag it as a "fair use"? --FlavrSavr 23:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
I added {{flagimage}} which is just a generic "this is a flag from some place" tag, that should be ok for now, we have a lot of those pending a bigger decision on what to do with them. :D And yeah we're kinda behind in image tagging ;) - cohesion★talk 05:45, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Портал

Здраво! Тукушто го креирав порталот Macedonia, па се надевам на твоја поддршка околу уредувањето и бранењето на страницата! Поздрав Bitola 12:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Hi

Please see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Macedonia if you can. --Bitola 15:02, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

No my friend, you didn’t disappointed me at all, I actually expected this outcome. Maybe you are wandering why I started this campaign at all, but I just had to do that, according to my view about the naming policy of our country. I hope that many users will realize what I’m trying to say. However, I know that WP is driven by respecting the will of majority users and, as always, I will respect the overwhelming decision. Bitola 19:18, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


Барање за Администратор за корисникот Khoikhoi. Можеш да гласаш на [2]. --Realek 16:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ahoj!

Jesi li tuuuuuu?

Niti bugarski niti makedonski vec ne znam.  :) Barem, tesko mi je...moram svaku rijec iz sebe daviti. Pa vas jezik barem ima prozodiju koja napominje srpsko-hrvatsku (ej, Srbi, Hrvati, cisto lingvisticka skracenica, i znajte to nabuduce!), aaaali dodi do bugarskog, koji je u svim glavnim crtama juznoslavenski, no ima sintaksis (barem u pisanom varijantu) potpuno infiltriran ruskim...ah, to je zivcan posao.

Kako si? --VKokielov 02:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)----

Jimmyev otkaz je zbog Slobodana.
Skoro cete vi Bugarima cistiti jezik. Znam da hocete. And then the great balance will be restored.  :) --VKokielov 02:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I ti se zoves Slobodan, Slobodane! Oprosti mi. Mislio sam na onog drugog. --VKokielov 04:53, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I should have been clearer

For the outstanding moderation and neutrality displayed in all occasions, I, Aldux, hereby award this barnstar to FlavrSavr.
For the outstanding moderation and neutrality displayed in all occasions, I, Aldux, hereby award this barnstar to FlavrSavr.

I should have been clearer in the edit summary, and for this ask you you to forgive me. I new it wasn't you: this guy Kamikazi2 had already vandalized the user pages of other two Macedonian editors, Realek and Bjankuloski06en. That edit summary I left was for him (I also left him a note on his user talk page, so you can see I had already detected the culprit), not for you. You certainly haven't done anything vandalic, since you simply reinserted the categories which Kamikazi2 had removed; I only completed the work by removing the categories this guy had put in their place.

I'm not surprised that nobody has ever called you a vandal: I've been looking around for quite a long time by now in Macdonia-related articles, and believe me, you have always proved one of the most serious and moderate editors dealing in this field, a field where often emotions have the better on reason. BTW, I've noted that nobody has ever given you a barnstar; this gives me the chance to be the first user to give you one - long earned, in my opinion ;-)--Aldux 10:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article

Hello! Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring – and with the hope of resolving this issue – you might be interested in a poll currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! --Aldux 16:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Salty Balkans

I read the exchange, first it made me smile, then it made me a little sad :( I completely agree. If only half of the Macedonians, Greeks, Bulgarians could think the same. I hope you enjoy the essay. If you have any comments I'd be glad to hear them. Now I'm not being nationalistic (I'm sure you can realise that from the exchanges with various nationalities (or ethnic stereotypes) on my talk page, but as a linguist I am wondering why you only have bg-1 ? Don't feel obliged to answer :) - FrancisTyers 19:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Macedonia (terminology)

I'd like to get your input (as one of the sane Macedonians around here) on an article I'm working on (with some Greek help), see Macedonia (terminology). Thanks! - FrancisTyers 20:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

There aren't any particular points of contention at the moment (surprise surprise), but basically I'd like input from all points of view. Please feel free to take up any issues you have with the article or make suggestions on the talk page. Re: bg-1, ok, fair enough, I'm sure the Bulgarians with mk-4 can't write standard Macedonian for toffee ;) - FrancisTyers 21:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Languages in the Republic of Macedonia

Hi, regarding the languages of the Republic of Macedonia, I disagree with your inclusion of the Turkish, Serbian and Romany names in the introduction. As far as I can tell, there are four status levels for languages in the Republic of Macedonia:

  • Primary "official language", mentioned by name in the constitution: at present, only Macedonian.
  • "Other official languages", such status is attained by languages spoken by 20% or more of the total population of the state. At present, only Albanian fulfils this requirement. Such languages, while not equal to Macedonian, are designated "official" (that very word) in the constitution, so they do have official status nationwide. This can be illustrated by the fact that one can obtain a passport in Macedonian or in Macedonian and Albanian, but not in Macedonian and Turkish for example. Additionally, only Albanian may be spoken in the national assembly (no other minority language).
  • Municipal official language: such languages include Romany, Turkish and Serbian. They can be used officially in municipalities (in addition to Macedonian and any other official languages if necessary).
  • Non official languages which the state maintains are not spoken, such as Bulgarian and Greek.

My concern is that including the exclusively municipal languages in the introduction undermines the status of Albanian as a secondary official language nationwide (as confirmed by p. 663 of the Encyclopædia Britannica Book of the Year, 2003 - ISBN 0-85229-956-7). Normally, Albanian should be in the infobox, but this caused an edit war with certain Macedonian users who prefer to view the Republic of Macedonia as a nation-state (you know, what I could jokingly refer to as the еден народ, еден јазик, една религија, една држава philosophy, or simply romantic nationalism) and resist the inclusion of Albanian in the infobox. I however, as an advocate of multiculturalism, do not wish to see any official at any level languages not mentioned. I think a solution to reflect the various status levels should be found, but not omit any interesting information. I approve of the way a similar issue has been handled at the article on the United Kingdom, where the local official languages (Welsh, Gaelic etc) are mentioned in the infobox. I'm wondering whether you would oppose including the Macedonian and Albanian languages at the head of the infobox, adding primary in the official entry of Macedonian, and including all the strictly municipal official languages in an entry at the bottom of the infobox (as in the UK article), or some similar approach, for example an entry on the topic or a footnote. Looking forward to hearing from you. --Telex 13:17, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks!

I got the mark back today -- 67% (Merit) (which may not seem good -- the way UK papers are graded is strange, but I'm very happy with it -- it equates to an A(-) in US terms and is only 3% off a 70% (Distinction)). I've pretty much dumped my history section into History of the Macedonian language, which I would be grateful if you could look over and note if there are any changes, or even make some :) Yes, I'm aware of the work by Koneski, he was one of the big figures in the standardisation process. I think he supervised Lunt's work on his Grammar. - FrancisTyers 23:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh, well you probably dont know the US system well enough. A is most certainly over 90%, A- is 85-90 in the absence of "curving"  /FunkyFly.talk_   00:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually I investigated this. You can see on the British undergraduate degree classification page under external links. I'll paste it here. - FrancisTyers 23:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
By the way those scores 0-100 that I was referring to were on the US scale, not the British.  /FunkyFly.talk_   23:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

What do you think of this little issue we have here?  /FunkyFly.talk_   01:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Please do read this [3]. There was a consensus version of this article worked out by Modi, VMORO and me, until Funky step in, and destroyed it without citing any source for his edits, purely on the basis of original research and stubborn POVing (although, at some point he seemed to agree with the compromise version [4] ). This was done in numerous other articles concerning Macedonian history, one of them being Jane Sandanski. Please investigate the matter. Regards. --FlavrSavr 02:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

With no sources? Like the BMARC statue does not say it clearly enough who can join? Consensus is not binding my friend administrator in mk.wiki, as facts are discovered things change. All the original research is actually putting labels such as Macedonian purely on the basis that the people were born in Macedonia. On the other hand there is historical evidence - documents of organizations and quotes, in which they refer to themselves as Bulgarian. See Macedonism.  /FunkyFly.talk_   02:21, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
By the way, you might want to add that to your CAPITALIZED collection.  /FunkyFly.talk_   02:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I find the passage "EVERY STUPID JERK CAN WRITE HIS OWN VERSION" particularly hilarious.  /FunkyFly.talk_   02:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
My capitalized collection? What the hell are you talking about? Anyway, I have no time to waste with you for now. The BMARC argument was used by VMORO as well, and if you cared to actually read some of the discussions, you might have realized that it wasn't particularly convincing, given the fact that many people who were definitely not Bulgarian were members of IMARO (btw, even the most radical Bulgarian nationalists use IMARO or IMRO, instead of italicized BMARC), such as Pitu Guli (an ethnic Vlach). The only difference is that you practically bullied your own POV into the articles, ignoring every other arguments, to the extent that you have brilliantly concluded that Pitu Guli was a Bulgarian. --FlavrSavr 22:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I was talking to Francis about the capitalized note. He might be Aromanian, true but he is clearly part of a Bulgarian organization, whose statute says only Bulgarians can be members. So, you are claiming the statute did not matter, it was a piece of paper? If it was just a piece of paper then how can you claim it was aiming for the independence of Macedonia in the first place and not something else? Being selective again Mr. mk.wiki admin?  /FunkyFly.talk_   22:58, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
The BMARC statute probably existed at some point, but it is only the Bulgarian POV that it covered the timespan between 1893 and 1902. There is also a SMARO constitution which is to be found in the British Foreign Office which is dated under 1898 - PRO. - FO 78/4951. Turkey (Bulgaria). From Elliot. 1898; УСТАВ НА ТМОРО. S.I. Moreover, as far as I know, modern neutral observers do not regard him as a Bulgarian, nor the IMARO (at its beginnings) as a Bulgarian organization, see Britannica: IMRO (not BMARC!) secret revolutionary society that operated in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to make Macedonia an autonomous state but that later became an agent serving Bulgarian interests in Balkan politics. Notice the but part. However, I'll leave the best parts for some time in the future, I really don't have the time to funk with Stalin now. --FlavrSavr 22:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
About the other SMARO you are claiming, do you also have data who participated in that organization, was it the same people that signed the BMARC statute or were they different?  /FunkyFly.talk_   23:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
The name IMRO was not adopted before 1920. BMARC however was founded in 1893, its statute was adopted in 1896. Either way, the name of the organization initially contained Bulgarian. Aren't you being a little too selective with Britannica, since you are denying the 1911 census data? IMRO is the final name of the organization, which is common use in English, something Britannica forgets to mention somehow. SMORO (ТМОРО) was not established before 1902. Basically all the revolutionaries you claim as "Macedonian" spent most of their years under BMARC.  /FunkyFly.talk_   22:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Refugees

Hi, I think you should know something. On Talk:Macedonian language you said/claimed/implied that the Slavophones were expelled from Greece after the Civil War was because they were Slavophones. That is in fact, incorrect - they were expelled because they were largely on the EAM/KKE/Communist side, and they lost. It was not just Slavs who were expelled, but Greeks as well. There are Greeks today in Australia, New Zealand, the Americas and South Africa, who are descendents (or are themselves) refugees from the Civil War. Some Greeks, for example the composer Mikis Theodorakis were sent to concentration camps for communists, in his case, it was Makronisos. It was not some ethnically motivated incident. --Telex 16:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Your vision, to fruition. :) - FrancisTyers 18:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pomos

Zdravo,

te molam ako imas vreme i ako sakas, pomozi me na Stan Lazaridis toj e makedonec fudbaler od australija, jasno e deka e makedonec i deka toj samiot e svesen deka e makedonec, no ovie grci na wiki (kako normalno) odma idat so propaganda i go pravet Grk, a duri idat so 5 grcki useri taka da moram da imam i jas nekoja potpora. te molam i pozdrav! --Makedonia 20:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You have a response to your comment in my talk and in the mk:wiki user talk-page. And in case you were wondering about that too, you must know that I too am very sensitive, and I too may over-react from time to time, and I too would want you to bring me in line if I do so, and I too wouldn't think of anything anything anything worse than me or you or anybody doing any harm to any of the two peoples. And I won't retract this over-sensitive comment of mine, because it definitely sounds like me!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 10:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Noticeboard and stuff

Niko has bought User:Asteraki and User:Makedonas in line with WP:USER, could you do the same for User:Macedonia and User:Makedonec please :) I notice you've been trying (so far without success), well could you just "clean up" the page. You don't need to blank it. See Niko's work on User:Makedonas for ideas. Also my comments on User_talk:Makedonia. Thanks again, :) - FrancisTyers 13:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] hi

Hello flavrsavr, well i changed my page, and i think it is good now, probably so do you and francistyers. about the stan lazaridis page, we made an agreement with the user GR_Manos, so i thought it was settled, but i see today, they changed it again, i mean if he speaks Macedonian, and played for a macedonian club, do you really think he is greek? i know you probably dont care so much about this, but this is just another example of the so many Unfair things on wiki. pozdrav.--Makedonia 16:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Propustio sam

molim oprostaj. Nisam vidio. Drago mi je sto si na IRCu.

Kada ces slijedeci put doci? --VKokielov 19:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:Macedonia

For this, I'm willing to let it stand, many other users have flags on their user pages, and consider how his page used to look, its ok. Of course I still think its kind of silly. Perhaps the Romanians will start an attack on the Chadians? :) How are things going over at the mk wiki ? Is it as bad as everyone thinks ? - FrancisTyers · 22:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

My userpage?? What strikes you as chauvinistic? I guessed the spelling of "Project", so please feel free to fix it (or anything else) — I hope I didn't use the Serbo-Croatian spelling by mistake or something. :) - FrancisTyers · 23:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Aha, ok, I don't know the translation of the Greek, but yeah it probably counts as chauvinistic. Especially when it is so large. I mean, I have flags, but within a context... - FrancisTyers · 23:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much everyone considers the Balkan'pedias to be pretty bad on the NPOV front. It is partly to be expected due to the fact that most of the people who speak the language come from one country (and even region), whereas for English, Spanish, French, or even German there are many countries. I'd be interested in knowing what the article on Greek Macedonia says. PS. I don't know if you are a programmer, but I would like to run some ideas by you, do you have an instant messenger? MSN or something like this, if so please email me the details. I'm on irc too, you can catch me at #linguistics on Freenode, as spectie. - FrancisTyers · 00:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POLL

No, no, no, not what you think! This time is for something that all of us need:

Improvement of the <ref> function.

Please weigh in at Wikipedia talk:Footnotes#Poll!  NikoSilver  (T) @ (C) 21:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation

You mentioned a translation on the MWNB, translation of what are you talking? - FrancisTyers · 15:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] and another Poll...

Hi. There's a debate about how much "X-ian" one must be in order to be considered "X-American" (or X-Yian for that matter) and be categorized as such. The poll is here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Rules for lists of X-Americans. Kindly weigh in! :NikoSilver: 21:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Macedonia (terminology)

Well, that'll be the first article we're not bitching too much about! :-) :NikoSilver: 22:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Macedonian census

I see you have data about "others" in census could you put this information, numbers of all nations defined as other on Macedonia talk page. Regards Luka Jačov 22:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I was quite suprised by relativly high number of Hungarians in Macedonia but also by small number of some ethnicities from former Yugoslavia. But there is one etnicity missing, Circassians, could you contact Macedonian Statistic Bureau to get info about them? How much do you know about Macedonian Circassians? In relation with Bulgarians I wanted to state that situation is somehow similar with Serbs and Montenegrins in Montenegro where some Montenegrins feel they belong Serb nation and part of them that they are separate and that it is more political preference then actuall ethno-genetic one (for example your brother can declare himself as Bulgarian cause of afforementioned reasons). U prilog tome goes that big oscilation of declared Bulgarians from 1981 to 2002 (in 1981 there were more than 3000 of them) which typical for categories like that. I hope you agree with me. Regards Luka Jačov 12:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Koji je razlog da mi ne želiš odgovoriti? Luka Jačov 18:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Thats discrase, if census is payed by tax-payers then they should anwser all citizens queries. You didnt quite understood my point about Bulgarians and Macedonians, I was not giving my opinion about whereas are they same or separate people I was just claiming that even among Macedonians there are Bulgarophiles who claim their ethnicity is Bulgarian. Similar situation are for example Bunjevci/Croats, Montenegrins/Serbs, Rusyns/Ukranians and their ratio varies from census to census as political climate changes through years. What is your surname? Regards... Luka Jačov 19:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Really, Corsica? How strange. You know what Corsicans and Montenegrins have in common? I agree all with what were you talking but I think all those things should be pointed. How much do you know about Circassians in Macedonia and Balkans? That would be very interesting article. Regards Luka Jačov 20:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Macedonia (terminology)

Text added in demographics and linguistics. Please comment.:NikoSilver: 12:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Словени-Македонци = Българи

Pro4eti tova:

Експремиерът-депутат на Македония Любчо Георгиевски обяви: “Аз съм българин!” и получи гражданство, паспорт и регистрация в Благоевград, срути пирамидата от исторически фалшификации на Скопие.
Над 10 000 етнически българи чакат в момента за гражданство, 500 000 души се самоопределят в бившата югославска република за българи, безспорен факт е - над 1 000 000 имат кръвна връзка с България, президентът Киро Глигоров признал през 1941-1944 г. в Кюстендил, че е българин, после “забрави”.... :) --Asteraki 17:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See Talk:Macedonia (terminology)

You are needed urgently. All the terminology of your country has been removed due to lack of references. Can you please get to it fast? :NikoSilver: 17:03, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Macedonia (terminology)

We're almost done for the FA status, but there is too little time to deal with some final opjections, mainly in citation. Your help is needed, see talk! :NikoSilver: 15:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Macedonia (terminology)#Poll

...you know the drill! :-) •NikoSilver• 10:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Could you please look at User_talk:Francis_Tyers#Renewal_efforts_of_the_Ohrid_Archbishopric and User_talk:Aldux#Renewal_efforts_of_the_Ohrid_Archbishopric? Thanks, --Cigor 15:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Здраво

Типов ZoguShqiptar700 постојано ја вандализира страницата за Македонија, кој може да го блокира? Поздрав --Ditirambo 09:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I wish

I wouldn't have anything to say.

Anyway, it's test time at NYU. --VKokielov 13:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I've found

the map in the bottom of my rucksack... Seems that I've sleepwalked most of the time on sunday. Do you still need it? I will send it to you. Best, --Nina 09:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

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