Talk:Flag of the United Kingdom

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Contents 1 Requests for Merge with Union Jack 1.1 Revert war 1.2 Posssible Merge? 1.3 It's Nuts at the moment - Let's merge Union Flag plus Flag of the United Kingdom 1.4 Let's merge them 1.5 Merge 1.6 Why we have two articles 2 Name of the flag 3 White border 4 italics? 5 Upside down 6 Butcher's Apron 7 Saint's cross for Wales? 8 Almost Symmetric 9 "Europe Day"? 10 Expanded

[edit] Requests for Merge with Union Jack

[edit] Revert war

What's going on here? Please stop reverting ech other's edits and explain what you are doing.

Whatever you decide, you should not be making articles which are duplicates. Use a redirect if you think they should be the ame thing. DJ Clayworth 17:15, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Reverting and re-reverting from Union Jack to Flag of the United Kingdom is pointless. Flag of the United Kingdom now contains the basic information on the flag as it is now, including and image. Other uses, history, nomenclature, the USA and Canada have nothing to do with the "Flag of the United Kingdom" so can be left at Union Jack. garryq 11:19, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Posssible Merge?

I was just looking around and I was wondering if there's a particular reason why this article hasn't been merged with Union Jack. They are both describing the same flag. -- KwaziMF 20:11, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi KwaziMF, everyone. I just wandered in because I was looking at various flags after the Flag of India was featured. I also noticed that there is the article Union Jack that seems to be the place were this article should be redirecting.

Does anyone have any objections to redirecting to Union Jack?--ShaunMacPherson 06:48, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

There was already a discussion (and revert war) about this (see the two talk pages). Flag of the United Kingdom exists to conform with the various other national flag pages (which are all "Flag of ...."). This page indicates that the Union Jack is used as the national flag. Union Jack has detailed information, as well as usage of the flag that is unrelated to its use as the national flag of the UK. So, both pages have a purpose, and shouldn't be merged.--JW1805 16:04, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] It's Nuts at the moment - Let's merge Union Flag plus Flag of the United Kingdom

This is nuts! Why on earth are there two different articles about the Union Flag? Let's use the wiki standard and forget about nicknames or "official" names. Just simplify the topic, and put it all under the very sensible title: "Flag of the United Kingdom" - can't get more self-explanatory than that. Even leaving aside the naming issue, surely it is daft to have two duplicate articles?--Mais oui! 21:32, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

• Don't Merge They are not duplicate articles. The original purpose of the Union Jack article was to include material about the flag that has nothing to do with its use as the Flag of the United Kingdom. For example, its use in the canton of the Australian flag. The fact that the flag has an existance greater than its use as a national flag, and the fact that it has its own name (that is the name most commonly used) is why there is a separate article. That was a compromise reached some time ago. --JW1805 22:08, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
• Don't Megre as above. --PhilipO 23:13, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
• Carefully merge but leave separate and interlink: In other words, move all the information that befits the national flag (history, design, specifications, use as national symbol) into this article and leave only the information that befits its other uses (some history) in the other article. I also suggest redirecting Union Flag to this article, since the term "flag" favours its use as a national flag. Dystopos 23:28, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
  • I think that would create great confusion, and would result in users adding duplicate information to one or the other article, since neither article would contain a full description of the flag. The way it is now, anything you would ever want to know about the flag is found in the Union Jack article. Really, the Flag of the United Kingdom article is unnecessary, but exists to conform to the other "Flag of ..." articles.--JW1805 23:44, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

The "soft mege" proposal is a recipe for duplication and confusion. Why is the UK flag the only one on Wikipedia with two articles? and one of them uses the nickname! This is just plain daft. We need one article, using the standard wiki title "Flag of the... ". --Mais oui! 07:11, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Let's merge them

These articles have the same content - although one somewhat more than the other - so should be combined

Certainly. If Dannebrog and Flag of Denmark are at the same page so should these be. --164.36.38.240 10:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

FYI: They aren't, any more. Dannebrog is a dab page.--Niels Ø (noe) 10:31, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Please discuss the merger at Union Jack. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:07, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Don't merge. This has been discussed many times. I think the current situation is best (see section below). --JW1805 (Talk) 21:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

• Merge - the same topic. --Mais oui! 21:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why we have two articles

The whole point of keeping them separate were the following facts:

1. This flag has a name. It is universally called the "Union Jack", and officially the "Union Flag".
2. Every country has a "Flag of ..." article about their flag. So, according to many editors, there must be a Flag of the United Kingdom article. We have had edit wars about this in the past.
3. The Union Jack is the Flag of the United Kingdom. But it is also used in other countries (for example, in the flag of Australia). It is also an official flag of Canada. So, it doesn't make sense to have information of flag days in Canada where the Union Jack is flown in an article called Flag of the United Kingdom.

Because of these facts, a concensus was reached where there would be two articles:

1. Flag of the United Kingdom which has minimal information and only specific to the flag's use as the national flag of the current country called the United Kingdom.
2. Union Jack, which would have detailed information about historical use, use in other countries, and in other flags.

This is why the current situation exists, which I think is a good compromise. I think if one artice is merged into the other, we will just start a new cycle of edit wars which happened in the past. --JW1805 (Talk) 22:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of the flag

You may be right, Garry. However I think we should look at things a little more closely.

I can see some justification for having Flag of the United Kingdom and Union Jack as separate articles, if only because the Union Jack has had other uses in the past, such as the flag of Canada - though frankly they are very closely related to its use as the National Flag of the UK.

I do think this article has some problems. It starts with what is a controversial statement. Most British people reading this will stop at the first sentence and think "This is wrong - everyone knows the British flag is the Union Jack". They may not read any further. Non-British readers who take the first sentence literally will also be confused when they find that, for practical purposes, the Union Jack is the national flag of the UK. We should probably start with something like "The National Flag of the United Kingdom is effectively the Union Jack. However technically it has never been adopted as a national flag, and is in fact a royal banner".

More importantly it would be great if you could cite some references for the Union jack not being the national flag. You say, for example, that the Union Jack is a royal banner - but there is a Royal Standard, which is quite different from the Union Jack. Where are the references for the Union jack being a royal banner. Also we should think about the question "what makes a flag a national flag?". Does it have to be adopted by Parliament? If it's been used as the national flag for 300 years, when does it become actually the national flag? I'll bet that there has never been a parliamentary resolution saying that London is the capital of the UK, but does that mean it isn't? Old countries generally don't bother legislating things that are obvious. At the very least the article should emphasise that, for practical purposes, the Union Jack is the National Flag of the UK.

So I'm going to suggest a rewrite, plus citing some sources for the flag not being national. Does that sound reasonable? DJ Clayworth 13:42, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Looking more closely at the Union Jack article I find: "it has become [the national flag] through usage" and "it was stated in Parliament that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag"" and "A more categorical statement was made by the Home Secretary in 1933, when he stated that "the Union Flag is the National Flag" ". Those seem pretty clear cut to me. DJ Clayworth 13:50, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The problem is not Union Jack, but in the frequent redirects the article kept getting. Hopefully this brief article will keep happy those who insist on the article being regularised with other national flags, and of course and help those who do not know the flags's name. The Union Jack article uses the most common name, as well as allowing for treatment of the flag, or the name, in history and outside the UK. Like so many aspects of the British Constitution the 1908un statement allows everything to muddle along, with fact and observance blurred. I hope the rewrite is clearer. --garryq 12:04, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Where are the references for the Union jack being a royal banner

On the British monarchy's official website "The Union Flag was originally a royal flag (when the present design was made official in 1801, it was ordered to be flown on all the King's forts and castles, but not elsewhere)"

However it does start the article by saying "The Union Flag, or Union Jack, is the national flag of the United Kingdom"

and also "Although the Union Flag originated as a royal flag, it is now also flown by many people and organisations elsewhere in the United Kingdom by long established custom" --Cap 00:24, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] White border

When flown by civilians the flag should have a white border, but this is rarely seen now.

I've never heard of this; what evidence do we have for the assertion? Marnanel 20:17, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The flag is sometimes refered to as the Pilots' Jack and traces it creation back to 1823 when it was created as a signal flag, and never intended as a civil jack. A book explaining the Act was issued to British consuls in 1855. It states that the white bordered Union Jack is the flag to be hoisted for a pilot, although it was being used by that time as a jack and the use of the Red Ensign for merchant shipping was not established until 1864. There was some ambiguity as to the legality of using as a jack although the practise was not acted upon by the authorities, partly because of fears that it would rise to demands that the merchany fleet be allowed to use the Uion Jack, a practice that the Admirialty did not want for no more than abitrary reasons and a possible superiority complex

In 1970 the white-bordered Union Jack ceased to be the signal for a pilot, but references to it as national colours were not removed from the current Merchant Shipping Act. It thus became a flag that could legally be flown on a civil ship, as a jack if desired. This status was confirmed by the Merchant Shipping (Registration, etc.) Act 1993. From which prohibits the use of any distinctive national colours or those used or resembling flags or pendants on Her Majesty's Ships, except:

1. the red ensign
2. the Union flag with white border
3. any colours authorised or confirmed elsewhere in the same Act.

Hence it might well be considered a civil jack, but that only applies at sea. Dainamo 15:46, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Removed comment to enter above details in article Union Jack Dainamo 15:55, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] italics?

What's the reason for the italicized portion? Ought that not be italicized and "...often called the Union Jack..." removed? Mkilly 23:25, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Upside down

"the flag is not symmetrical and has a right side and a wrong side up" It appears to have a 180-degree rotational symmetry. Not much danger of confusion with an actual physical flag, but paper or virtual representations it's significant. Joestynes 13:10, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"the flag is flown upside down as a distress signal" really? Considering it's not used at sea, and considering how hard it would be to distinguish, I find this hard to believe. Joestynes 05:22, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Butcher's Apron

While I agree the term is pejorative, I have come across references to this on the web. My simple point is attributing it to a certain group without an actual reference or verification is POV IMHO. If you can find a reference, by all means add it. --PhilipO 21:24, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

You are joking, right? Who the h*ll else in Ireland is going to call the "Union Flag" "The Butcher's Apron"??!! Anyone who is staunchly anti-British - that's who - i.e. an Irish nationalist/republican. My edit did also not attribute to an entire group - I said "some Irish Nationalists/Republicans". I live in Ireland and can say that the relationship towards the UK from the ROI is generally a very positive one. Only a very small number of staunch Republicans would use such terminology.

Not adding the terms "Irish Nationalist/Republican" subtly implies that this is a very common term in Ireland from the common person, when in reality this is far from the truth. It seems to me that the intention of the original author (Lapsed Pacifist) was to spread as much British-hating Irish Republican propaganda as possible (which is clear if you study this author's edit history).

And yes, I found references to this on the web - almost all in bulletin boards/forums from people holding strong Irish Republican views. Another most most notable site where the terms occurs frequently is An Phoblacht Republican news - well known as the voice of the Provisional IRA. To say that I must prove this is quite daft.

217.137.160.31 22:24, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually I agree with what you say. In reality I don't think the statement adds anything, and actually detracts from the article - it is quite perjorative and this article isn't the place for an-anti flag statement. I would suggest removing the statement in its entirety. --PhilipO 22:31, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Glad you say you're agreeing now. Well, read my new edit (maybe I made it a bit too strong), and if you still don't like it, then delete the whole lot. 217.137.160.31 22:37, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I think is is valid to have this information, since some people do use this term. But, it should go on the Union Jack page, which has detailed information about the flag. Flag of the United Kingdom is just a bare-bones article that just says that the Flag of the UK is the Union Jack.--JW1805 04:37, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

It's pertinent because much of Ireland is still in the United Kingdom. If you think the article lacks depth, add to it.

Lapsed Pacifist 04:43, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I think we have a misunderstanding. I'm just saying that detailed info should be put on the Union Jack page. This page (Flag of the United Kingdom) really just exists to conform with the other Wikipedia pages on the flages of various nations. This makes sense (and is the compromise born of many past revert wars). --JW1805 04:49, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I see no reason why the article can't be expanded. If it's to remain at this size it would be better to make it a redirect.

Lapsed Pacifist 04:55, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

This has already been discussed (see above). There was a length revert war and a truce on this very issue.--JW1805 05:06, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Use of the term is much more prevalent in the part of Ireland still under British jurisdiction than in the Republic, which does'nt seem to have been taken into account in the exchanges above.

Lapsed Pacifist 05:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

LP - all the info for the flag (including your prejorative statement and alternate names)has been moved to Union Jack. Please stop your campaign of trying to spread your anti-British propaganda to every page possible. Jonto

The name is pejorative. The statement is not.

Lapsed Pacifist 17:09, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

OK - replace "statement" with "name" in my comment - makes no difference to my point. The bulk of info in in Union Jack Jonto

There's no good reason not to have it here as well, especially as some of Ireland is still in the United Kingdom.

Lapsed Pacifist 17:23, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

• Your argument makes no sense. Detailed info goes on Union Jack. A knickname used by a miniscule fraction of the UK population has no place on this page. --JW1805 19:31, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Saint's cross for Wales?

Does the white cross under St. George's cross stand for a saint for Wales? Squamate 14:24, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

No it's just there because the St George's Cross is a red cross on a white background. The white cross is there jsut to have some of that white background in the Union Flag, although the main background colour is the blue of the St Andrew's Cross. The Union Flag doesn't actually contain any Welsh symbolisation, which has at times been a bone of contention (see Flag of Wales). David Underdown 14:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a Flag of Saint David which is the saint's flag for Wales. As Wales was considered a part of England upto the late 19th century, there wasn't much chance of it being included in the Union Flag. Astrotrain 14:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Almost Symmetric

"... almost symmetric ..." says the article. It is symmetric. One of the symmetries is rotation by 180 degrees. Jimp 04:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Europe Day"?

Is it really true that the national flag is flow to celebrate a supranational governmental entity? Seems a bit farfetched to me. 212.1.155.136 14:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, the Department of Culture, Media and Sport maintains the list (http://www.culture.gov.uk/flagflying/dates.htm) of the dates. The flag is to be flown on Europe day alongside the flag of the European Union, though the Union flag is to have precedence over the European flag if only one flagpole is available. Dumelow 14:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• • In practice, some buildings will just fly the Europe Flag though- particuarly if there is a politcal motive. Astrotrain 17:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expanded

I've expanded to include the rules of the Scottish Executive and Northern Ireland Office. I cannot find anything from Wales though. Astrotrain 00:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)