Talk:Flag of Ireland

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Contents 1 Green, White and Orange? 2 Four provinces flag image 3 A new flag for Ireland? 4 What colour is it? 5 Gold 6 Folding 7 Changes 8 Are the colours correct? 9 Why so many flags?

[edit] Green, White and Orange?

Small aside: Many people in the Republic of Ireland describe the flag's coloInsert non-formatted text herers as Green, White and Orange (which is technically incorrect). I'm not sure why that is -- its probably because they are denial that the Orange represents the Unionist community.

If you are talking in technical heraldic terms you can't use terms like "blue" but have to say "azure" etc. I forget what "green" would be, but I'm pretty sure white and gold are "argent" and "or". PML.

That may be generally correct but in the Irish instance, the colors are always referred to as green, white and orange, just as the Union Jack is always referred to as red, white and blue. And the Irish presidential flag is always described as Saint Patrick's Blue, not azure. JTD 22:53 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

Also, nothing rhymes with "orange" so if it's nationalist poetry you're writing, a bit of poetic license is called for. Joestynes 09:48, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't this article go into to Red Hand flag that was used in NI before 1972-73? hoshie

The following has been removed from the article because a user has questioned its accuracy. However it sounds kind of like it might be so if someone knows it is accurate please provide a source and we can put it back.

Contrary to myth, however, it was not the actual flag of the Easter Rising; that flag was in fact a green flag with the words 'Irish Republic', written in orange with white shadowing. (This flag is on display in the Kildare Street branch of the National Museum of Ireland.) The tricolour in the Rising was in fact the flag of E-Company and as such was flown over the General Post Office, Dublin (GPO), the headquarters of the Rising's leadership. Unlike the official flag, the E-Company's tricolour caught the public imagination and became the de facto flag of the Irish Republic

Iota 15:07, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is indeed true. I do not have a source, but I'm re-instating it.

The last sentence is the only subjective piece in the paragraph. It is possible to elaborate further on that point.

zoney ♣ talk 16:36, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I'm slightly less certain what the previous editor took issue with. The essential statement in the section listed above is still on the page, namely,

Contrary to myth, however, it was not the actual flag of the Easter Rising; that flag was in fact a green flag with the words 'Irish Republic'. It became the de facto flag of the Irish Republic (1919-22).

So I'll leave it as is for now. zoney ♣ talk 16:42, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't think his concerns were about NPOV. I think he was questioning the factual accuracy of the stuff about E-Company. Lapsed Pacifist put a note on my talkpage saying he deleted it because he wanted to see a source for the sentence. That's fair enough but to me the removed sentence doesn't sound like something someone would just make up. Iota 17:30, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Co. Offaly back at the turn of the last century was awarded the colours of the Ireland flag (but horizontally not vertically as they were in the original Irish flag green white and GOLD). That’s why Offaly referred to as 'The Faithful county' The colours used by the men who organised the Easter rising were green white and GOLD although the flag used on the day was the green with 'Irish Republic' written in gold not orange, anyway ask any true Irishman and they'll tell you the true colour is Gold and not orange. as for the new flag it should the green with gold harp or the green white and gold.- A. Sheridan

[edit] Four provinces flag image

This is not the most important disagreement we'll ever have on Wikipedia but I want to say my piece anyway. Whether the four provinces flag should remain in its original position rather than be moved so as to be precisely alligned with the "Other flags" section is an aesthetic judgement call. Pictures don't have to precisely line up with section headings and often, for stylistic reasons, it is desirable that they don't. Certainly no-one is going to be confused into thinking the four provinces flag is the St. Patrick's flag or vice-versa. When I added the image to the article I put it in the position that I thought looked best. In the absence of any strong reason to move it I don't see why another user should be allowed to impose their own aesthetic preference over the status quo. I'll not make any change to the article for the moment. Iota 17:57, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well I agree it's all rather trivial. But I think putting a picture in the section where it's discussed is a "strong reason" for moving it. I'm guessing the thing you dislike about this aesthetically is that the image is longer than the text? While not perfect, this will be corrected if future edits augment the text. On the other hand, having 2 flags together is imperfect as compared to the consistency of having all images at the left margin. I agree that minor fiddling around fine judgement-calls clutters edit histories, but in this case 2 different users have preferred the lower position and only one the higher. Joestynes 07:34, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A new flag for Ireland?

Does anyone else fell that we should have a new flag? I'm aware of what the tricolour represents and the emotiveness of even suggesting this, but we have older (and in my view, far better) symbols for our nation than the tricolour. Also - and again, this is just me - its way too similar to that of India, Cote d'Ivorie and a few others; plus the fact that green, white and orange clash for ****** sake! It looks terrible on our sports teams! Any suggestions folks? Discussion would be welcome. Fergananim

That's nonsense. The flag has a good history behind it and a good symbolism. As can be seen in the article it dates back to 1848 ( approx. ). It also represents a good belief - peace, which I believe nobody can argue against. I may be wrong but as far as i know the Irish flag is older than the India & Cote d'Ivorie. Finally i don't see how you can think the colours look ugly on the sports teams, i think it looks good.

Why in gods name would we in Ireland want to change the national flag? Just because its similar to another country and that it looks terrible in our sports teams doesnt justify why we should change it. This is just as silly as changing the national anthem.

I'm going to suggest something here. I think it is clear that we do not need to have a new flag now. No reason for it. But I can imagine needing a new flag in future. The current flag of the Republic of Ireland has negative connotations to many people, rightly or wrongly. So let us imagine an end to partition and a new 32-county Ireland. Wouldn't the formation of that expanded State be an opportunity for a change, to a new flag, a new look? In keeping with a multi-cultural tradition I came up with the flag and banner below. Green, white, and orange are kept, but instead of the unimaginative tricolour design popularized by revolutionary France, the northwest European cross motif is used. This also hearkens to Ireland's Viking heritage.

A proposed national and merchant flag for a United Ireland

A proposed state and naval flag for a United Ireland

A proposed streamer for a United Ireland

I think it looks nice, anyway. And a long triangular flag streamer is often flown in Nordic countries. This design would facilitate that pleasant patriotic practice. Well. It's just a thought. Evertype 15:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Like it. And at least it would solve the problem of trying to work out who's supporting which team in Ireland v. Italy matches :) Vilĉjo 22:41, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What colour is it?

The flag of republic of ireland is Green white and GOLD, and contrary to an other discussion which states that this is technically incorrect, is in itself technically incorrect. How could the person who wrote that possibly know wheteher it was right or wrong, Unless they were taught Irish history at extensive length in school. I admit that some Irish flags appear more orange than gold but this is most likely due to poor manufacture or over use of dyes. The green and gold panels of the flag don't represent any religous groups(Catholic or Protestant), but is instead supposed to present a free Ireland, free of rule from anyone other than those who are proud and love the whole of Ireland. Also the argument about the Offaly football team having the same colour jersey as the tricolour is also technically correct.

I think it is indeed strange that this article fails to mention the "green, white, and gold". There are some who claim that the green is to represent Ireland, and the white and gold represents the Vatican. Some theories also suggest that the orange was added simply because gold was a difficult colour to print, and that the notion that orange is to represent the Williamite culture is a recent construct of political correctness. It is also quite noticible that observable Irish Tricolours have only recently seemed to standardise in recent years on the tone of orange that is used. In the past many shades from yellow to almost red were visible Jonto 23:44, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Who theorizes about the Vatican colours being a source for the Irish tricolour? Name names, Jonto, and dates. Do you have a source to cite about the difficult of "printing" gold? First, note the description in this publication of the Department of the Taoiseach

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http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/publications/1105.pdf where the colours are described as "uaine, bán, agus flannbhuí". Flann is an old word meaning 'blood' and buí means 'yellow'. Ó Dónaill's dictionary gives s.v. flannbhuí the definition '(Of colour) Orange.' Note the colour on the front of that publication by the Department of the Taoiseach. I don't know what colour you can call that but orange. Note the text from this Irish Government website http://www.irlgov.ie/aboutireland/eng/irstate.asp: "The National Flag is a tricolour of green, white and orange. The green represents the older Gaelic and Anglo-Norman element in the population, the orange the Protestant supporters of William of Orange, while the white represents a lasting peace between the two traditions. First flown as an emblem of the Young Ireland movement of 1848, the flag did not come into popular use until after the 1916 Rising." Note the Irish version of the same text: "An Bhratach Náisiúnta, is trídhathach í, uaine, bán agus flannbhuí. Ciallaíonn an uaine an chuid is sine den phobal, de shliocht na nGael agus na nAngla-Normannach, agus seasann an flannbhuí do lucht leanúna Protastúnach Liam Oráiste. Cuireann an bán in iúil síocháin bhuan idir an dá thraidisiún. Nochtadh an bhratach seo i gcéaduair mar shuaitheantas Ghluaiseacht Éire Óg in 1848, ach níor glacadh leis go forleathan go dtí tar éis Éirí Amach 1916. " In drafts of the Constitution, the first word chosen to describe the colour was cróchda 'saffron', replaced by órdha (órga) 'golden colour', finally replaced by flannbhuí 'orange'. (Source: Mícheál Ó Cearúil, Bunreacht na hÉireann: A study of the Irish text p. 3.) No mention of the Vatican, and no specifics about what órdha might have meant. Article 7 of Bunreacht na hÉireann states plainly: "An bhratach trí dhath .i. uaine, bán, agus flannbhuí, an suaitheantas náisiúnta. The national flag is the tricolour of green, white and orange." Facts, folks, facts. Evertype 14:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, regarding the 'Gold' - citations please. Here's one to get the ball rolling re: 'Orange' (it's the oldest I could find on google print). It's a review of hearings to the US Congress Committee on Foreign Affairs regarding 'The Irish Question' in 1918. The last section of the page describes the colours of the Tri-Colour (Green, White and Orange) and makes a claim that it was created 125 years earlier by Wolfe Tone. Dbnull 15:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The "Green White and Gold" thing is a common misconception. The 1937 Constitution of Ireland is pretty explicit, as Evertype notes above. Further, the supposed link to the Vatican flag (which is in any case white and yellow), was in all likelihood introduced as Unionist propaganda. It would be interesting to include some of these misconceptions/myths in the article if anybody has any good sources. --Ryano 15:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The sentence about St. Patrick's flag "The flag was never accepted or popular by a majority of the Irish people, who saw it as a British invention" is not a NPOV. FDRMay 21 12:38 PM 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gold

Its a bit strange to place {{fact}} after "occasionally mis-identified as gold". Its of such common knowledge so as to make a citation a trivial matter and citations are not intended for these matters. I think the fact request should be removed. Ultimately if we need a citation then The National Flag, The Protocol Section, Department of the Taoiseach states:

Often different shades of yellow, instead of orange, are seen at civilian functions. This misrepresentation of the National Flag should be actively discouraged.

Gold is just a shade of yellow, and the text could be updated for this. Djegan 18:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

But the reference given says "Gold" it does not say "yellow".

Either give your reference or delete the entire issue ClemMcGann 21:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Folding

Anyone know the correct way to fold the Flag of Ireland?

"I am not sure if this is entirely correct but this is how I was taught to fold a Tricolour in the Catholic Boy Scouts of Ireland.

1. Fold the orange section over on top of the white section.
2. Turn the flag over and fold the green section over similarly on top of the opposite side of the white section.
3. Fold the flag in half doubling the orange section in on top of itself, leaving the green on both sides of the remaining square.

The idea behind this specific folding pattern is so that the orange and green sections symbolically never touch. The orange section represents Protestant settlers in Ireland (there is a William of Orange connection but I am unsure as to what) and the green section represents the Catholic indigenous. Because of the conflict between the two in the past in the Republic , the white is included in the flag to represent peace, and to separate them when the flag is folded. Presumably the green section is left foremost as it is the National Colour of Ireland. I have seen the flag folded triangularly á la The Stars and Stripes, to my knowledge this is incorrect." -- http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1158607

Is this right or anyone have any other ideas? --Ablaze (talk) 15:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

Someone reverted my recent changes on the basis that they were "BIG" and I hadn't discussed them here first. Okay then, who thinks this version is an improvement? Nobody reverted my separated-out Saint Patrick's Flag so now we have two pages discussing that. The separate one has quite a few inlinks now that I've moved them around. The other change I made was to augment the "green white and gold" info. Oh, and mention Northern Ireland flags issue which is where most of "Use in Northern Ireland" should really be. jnestorius^(talk) 19:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I plan on re-adding my reverted changes in a couple of days unless someone comments otherwise here. jnestorius^(talk) 23:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Done. jnestorius^(talk) 17:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are the colours correct?

The image of the tricolour is used throughout Wikipedia, but are the colours, particularly the green, of the correct hue? I think possibly they aren't. Have a look at the discussion on the Flags of World website. Also, look the two versions of the image below (double-click the image). The SVG image is the one used in Wikipedia. I wonder whether we should change to the jpg image. Arcturus 23:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

We shouldn't use a JPG for a flag. There might be a need to replace the SVG with another which uses the JPG colours. jnestorius^(talk) 00:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

&suns;Amber&suns;

[edit] Why so many flags?

Surely there should be a specific article describing the flag of the republic of ireland solely, and this should be linked directly from the republic of ireland page. A separate article should be used to discuss the various flags used throughout the island. As this page is linked from the Republic of Ireland page, it should only contain our national flag. Furthermore, the colours, particularly the green are blatantly incorrect.

User:Ali-oops created an SVG file (see above image) but I'm not sure if she merely converted the jpg or started from scratch. In any event, maybe someone should convert the jpg to svg while trying to maintain the colours as shown above. I don't have the s/w to do it, does anyone? I'm reasonably certain the above colours are correct and the version as currently used throughout Wikipedia is wrong. Arcturus 19:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)