Talk:First they came...
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Is there a date for the poem? Seems silly not to date it. MrZaius 03:23, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no date for any written version by Niemoeller: hence the problems. Norvo 23:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm relatively new and so am not up on all the minutiae of Wikipedia policies, but shouldn't the text of the poem(s) be placed on Wikisource or some other website? -- Dan Carlson 22:26, Feb 10, 2004 (UTC)
The version of this poem in the Wikipedia entry on Martin Niemöller has a slightly different text; shouldn't the two be the same? I do not know what the original was, so I cannot make the correction.
It appears that both could actually be correct as niether are the "original". They are both translations from german into english and as such appear similar enough to allow for slight differences in translation. The original was written in german not english so some slight variation should be expected after translation.
- Reading through [[1]] and [[2]], the impression I get is that Niemoller expressed the basic thrust of the poem in prose, but that the poem itself is an immediate post-mortal distillation of his thoughts by parties unknown. As mentioned in the article, the groups mention in the text vary ("Trade Unionists" are often substituted for "Catholics"). In other words, I believe that Niemoller thought the thought but did not write the write. -Ashley Pomeroy 14:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I have my suspicions about the German "original": for one thing there doesn't actually seem to be an attested German original: I think the so-called original is likely translated back from English. Reading some of the original texts at Marcuse's site, I note that he frequently used the verbs "beseitigen" (put aside, get rid of), and "schweigen" (to keep silent) to describe the Nazi actions and his (non)reaction, respectively. They don't appear in the "original". And as to the order of the victimisation, he would of course have known the actual order: Commies, the "Unheilbaren", Socialists and trade unionists, the Jews, and finally the uppity Christian clergy (I think that's the historical order). MMacD, 14th Jan 06
It's useful to see this article published by the Martin-Niemoeller-Stiftung. [3]
Norvo 23:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Off-topic
I moved this stuff over from the article, as it seems off topic to me. What does this contribute in regard to the poem "First they came?" Str1977 (smile back) 09:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
- It contributes nothing at all. It's just irrelevant axe-grinding.
Norvo 04:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Poem as a Confession of an Antisemite
September 1939, ten months after Kristallnacht, Lutheran pastor Niemöller volunteered, "to fight for Adolph Hitler’s Germany".
This offer to serve the Nazis was made by a man whose famous words, uttered after the defeat of Germany, so appeal to us. This offer to serve the Nazis "in any capacity" was made by a man who, when "they came for the Jews", failed to speak out because he was a common variety of anti-Semite. This offer to serve Hitler "in any capacity" was made by the man who, "after they came for me", spoke out for himself by offering to bear arms for them, for those who, had they won the war, would have searched the earth to kill every Jewish man, woman, and child. What darker example of the power of nationalism is there than Niemoller, a Christian minister, ready in the name of Germany to drink from the cup of genocide? http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/projects/niem/NiemollersAntisemitism.htm http://scarsdale.blogdrive.com/archive/cm-01_cy-2004_m-01_d-10_y-2004_o-0.html
[edit] Pastor Martin Niemöller Record Whitewashed
One of the most striking exemplars of the pervasive anti-Semitism of the non-Nazi right wing is a man whose record is nowadays often whitewashed. Pastor Martin Niemöller, later himself to be persecuted by the Nazis, never made a secret of his strong, racial anti-Semitism. In his Sätze zur Arierfrage in der Kirche ('Theses on the Aryan Question in the Church') of November 1933, he opposed the introduction of the "Aryan paragraph" in the Protestant church on doctrinal grounds, but takes care, nevertheless, to opine that Jews had done great harm to Germany; he also indicates that the baptized Christians of Jewish origins are personally distasteful to him (text in Günther van Norden, Der Deutsche Protestantismus im Jahr der nationalsozialistischen Machtergreifung, Gütersloh, 1979, pp. 361-363). As late as 1935, Niemöller goes out of his way to preach hatred against the Jews: "What is the reason for [their] obvious punishment, which has lasted for thousands of years? Dear brethren, the reason is easily given: the Jews brought the Christ of God to the cross!" The text of this sermon, in English, is found in Martin Niemöller, First Commandment, London, 1937, pp. 243-250. .... On the attitude of the Bekennende Kirche to the Jews see also the revealing essay by Uriel Tal, 'On Modern Lutheranism and the Jews,' in LBI Yearbook XXX (1985), pp. 203-213. http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/projects/niem/NiemAntisemCohnHMCorresp034.htm
The author, Professor Werner Cohn, states:
“I lived as a Jew under the Nazis in the very years that he [ Martin Niemöller ]told his Dahlem congregation that we Jews were race aliens, and also that we deserved what we got, having murdered Christ. I lived not too far from his church, and his name was mentioned in my home.” http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/projects/niem/NiemAntisemCohnHMCorresp034.htm#cohnbiog
[edit] Google Translation
why on earth is there a google translation in the article? it seems completely pointless, if not counter productive, to insert a machine translation. since when is google translate an authoritative translation? sorry, i'm pulling it. it adds nothing of value to the article. nothing. Anastrophe 17:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
- You have my support. Earlier I removed a Google translation, only to see it later added back. jareha (comments) 17:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
