Talk:First Battle of Fallujah

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This article is at least 75% about the precursors to the US campaign.

Okay, are there any sources which say the US was motivated by a desire for revenge or retribution? In other words, were Americans letting it get personal?

What happened during the operation? How many soldiers on each side died? Were there any civilian casualties? Was there any ambiguity about Iraqi deaths due to rebels not wearing uniforms or otherwise identifying themselves as "non-civilian"?

What was the result of the offensive? Did any land or buildings change hands? Did the new Iraqi government issue any requests or decrees relating to the disposition of US or other forces? Did any Islamic religious figures make comments?


this node is seriously biased. i recommend scrapping it. Jabbi 23:30, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Locations of death of Marines killed

With extencive resarch I have found the locations of death of 20 Marines who were not killed in Fallujah but are listed as killed in that battle, 15 were killed in the Battle of Ramadi and 5 in Huysabah, I will remove those 21 from the casualty count and put there names here so you can veryfy this.

Killed in Battle of Ramadi:

Pfc. Moises A. Langhorst, 19, of Moose Lake, Minn.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 5 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

2nd Lt. John T. Wroblewski, 25, of Oak Ridge, N.J.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; died April 6 of injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

Pfc. Deryk L. Hallal, 24, of Indianapolis, Ind.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

Navy Petty Officer 3rd Class Fernando A. Mendez-Aceves, 27, of Ponce, Puerto Rico; assigned to the Naval Medical Center San Diego, 1st Marine Division Detachment, San Diego; killed April 6 while conducting combat operations in the Anbar province, Iraq.

Pfc. Christopher R. Cobb, 19, of Bradenton, Fla.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

Lance Cpl. Travis J. Layfield, 19, of Fremont, Calif.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

Marine Staff Sgt. Allan K. Walker, 28, of Lancaster, Calif.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

Lance Cpl. Kyle D. Crowley, 18, of San Ramon, Calif.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

Pfc. Ryan M. Jerabek, 18, of Oneida, Wis.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

Lance Cpl. Marcus M. Cherry, 18, of Imperial, Calif.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

Lance Cpl. Benjamin R. Carman, 20, of Jefferson, Iowa; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

Lance Cpl. Anthony P. Roberts, 18 Company E, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, Bear, Delaware; Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 6, 2004

Pfc. Christopher D. Mabry 19 Company G, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Chunky, Mississippi Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 7, 2004

Lance Cpl. John T. Sims Jr. 21 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Alexander City, Alabama Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 10, 2004

Pfc. Eric A. Ayon 26 Company E, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Arleta, California Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 9, 2004

Those killed in Battle of Husaybah:

Lance Cpl. Michael J. Smith Jr. 21 Company L, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Jefferson, Ohio Died due to injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 17, 2004

Lance Cpl. Ruben Valdez Jr. 21 Company L, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force San Diego, Texas Died due to injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 17, 2004

Lance Cpl. Gary F. Van Leuven 20 Company L, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Klamath Falls, Oregon Died due to injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 17, 2004

Capt. Richard J. Gannon II 31 Company L, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Escondido, California Died due to injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 17, 2004

Cpl. Christopher A. Gibson 23 Company L, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Simi Valley, California Died due to injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 18, 2004

[edit] Page move

As part of an ongoing attempt to be less US-centric, I am moving this from "Operation..." to "Battle of...". Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 01:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I also added 11 citation_neededs, and reworked much of the article...we don't need two paragraphs discussing hospitals' counting methods, it can be easily summarized in a single sentence. This article is in a ghastly state, for having been the largest battle of the most widely publicized on-going war. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 03:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Accuratre casualty count

I know you have made a lot of changes but your US casualty figures are way off. The link you provide talks about the November 2004 attack. Casualties were in the 20 - 40 range for KIA. Please fix the infobox and correct the link.--Looper5920 04:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Nothing in the article is mine, I just rewrote things into proper sentences and such. The casualty figures, same thing. I have no idea where they came from, they're the same stats that were here when I started. I'll try and find sources, if you can find the same, maybe we can get this article half-decent. Appreciate the notes and corrections. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 04:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Alright, if we assume that the Battle did indeed end on May 1st, then we are indeed looking at maybe 30% of the US casualties originally listed. Here's a list I made myself by going through casualty reports for the month. On some of the people, I double-checked they were indeed killed in Fallujah, others only say "Anbar province", but I'm making the assumption they were related to Fallujah since it was the only Anbar offensive at the time. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 03:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

  1. Lance Cpl. Aric J. Barr 22 2nd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Died of injuries received from enemy action in Anbar Province, Iraq, on April 4, 2004
  2. Pfc. Geoffery S. Morris 19 Weapons Company, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Gurnee, Illinois Died of injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 4, 2004
  3. Cpl. Tyler R. Fey 22 1st Combat Engineer Battalion, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Eden Prarie, Minnesota Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 4, 2004
  4. Cpl. Jesse L. Thiry 23 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Casco, Wisconsin Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 5, 2004
  5. Lance Cpl. Matthew K. Serio 21 Company C, 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force North Providence, Rhode Island Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 5, 2004
  6. Pfc. Christopher Ramos 26 Company C, 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Albuquerque, New Mexico Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 5, 2004
  7. Lance Cpl. Shane L. Goldman 20 Company C, 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Orange, Texas Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar Province, Iraq, on April 5, 2004
  8. Lance Cpl. Anthony P. Roberts 18 Company E, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Bear, Delaware Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 6, 2004
  9. Capt. Brent L. Morel 27 Company B, 1st Reconnaissance Battalion, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Martin, Tennessee Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 7, 2004
  10. Pfc. Christopher D. Mabry 19 Company G, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Chunky, Mississippi Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 7, 2004
  11. Lance Cpl. Christopher B. Wasser 21 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Ottawa, Kansas Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 8, 2004
  12. Lance Cpl. Michael B. Wafford 20 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Spring, Texas Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 8, 2004
  13. 1st Lt. Joshua M. Palmer 25 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Banning, California Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 8, 2004
  14. Staff Sgt. William M. Harrell 30 Company B, 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Placentia, California Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 8, 2004
  15. Lance Cpl. Phillip E. Frank 20 Company G, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Elk Grove, Illinois Died due to enemy fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 8, 2004
  16. Cpl. Nicholas J. Dieruf 21 Weapons Company, 1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Versailles, Kentucky Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 8, 2004
  17. Lance Cpl. Levi T. Angell 20 11th Combat Service Support Group, 1st Force Service Support Group, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force St. Louis, Minnesota Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 8, 2004
  18. Cpl. Michael R. Speer 24 Company F, 2nd Battalion, 2nd Marines, 2nd Marine Division, 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force Davenport, Iowa Died from hostile fire in Iraq on April 9, 2004 (Al-Anbar, even though it doesn't say so)
  19. Lance Cpl. Elias Torrez III 21 Weapons Company, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Veribest, Texas Died from hostile fire in Iraq on April 9, 2004
  20. Pfc. Chance R. Phelps 19 L Battery, 3rd Battalion, 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Clifton, Colorado Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 9, 2004
  21. Cpl. Matthew E. Matula 20 Headquarters & Service Company, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Spicewood, Texas Died from hostile fire in Iraq on April 9, 2004
  22. Lance Cpl. John T. Sims Jr. 21 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Alexander City, Alabama Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 10, 2004
  23. Pfc. Eric A. Ayon 26 Company E, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Arleta, California Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 9, 2004
  24. Pfc. George D. Torres 23 Company B, 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Long Beach, California Died due to enemy fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 11, 2004
  25. 1st Lt. Oscar Jimenez 34 Headquarters & Service Company, 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force San Diego, California Died due to enemy fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 11, 2004
  26. Lance Cpl. Torrey L. Gray 19 Company L, 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Patoka, Illinois Died from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 11, 2004
  27. Lance Cpl. Brad S. Shuder 21 Company E, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force El Dorado, California Died from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 12, 2004
  28. Lance Cpl. Robert P. Zurheide Jr. 20 Company E, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Tucson, Arizona Died from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 12, 2004
  29. Cpl. Daniel R. Amaya 22 Company K, 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Odessa, Texas Died from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 11, 2004
  30. Pvt. Noah L. Boye 21 Weapons Company, 1st Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Grand Island, Nebraska Died from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 13, 2004
  31. Cpl. Kevin T. Kolm 23 Company A, 3rd Assault Amphibian Battalion, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Hicksville, New York Died from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 13, 2004
  32. Sgt. Christopher Ramirez 34 Company B, 1st Battalion, 16th Infantry, 1st Brigade, 1st Infantry Division McAllen, Texas Died from injuries sustained during combat operations in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 14, 2004
  33. Lance Cpl. Michael J. Smith Jr. 21 Company L, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Jefferson, Ohio Died due to injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 17, 2004
  34. Lance Cpl. Ruben Valdez Jr. 21 Company L, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force San Diego, Texas Died due to injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 17, 2004
  35. Lance Cpl. Gary F. Van Leuven 20 Company L, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Klamath Falls, Oregon Died due to injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 17, 2004
  36. Capt. Richard J. Gannon II 31 Company L, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Escondido, California Died due to injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 17, 2004
  37. Cpl. Christopher A. Gibson 23 Company L, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Simi Valley, California Died due to injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 18, 2004
  38. Lance Cpl. Aaron C. Austin 21 Company E, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force Sunray, Texas Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 26, 2004
  39. Petty Officer 3rd Class Christopher M. Dickerson 33 Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 14, 3rd Naval Construction Regiment Eastman, Georgia Killed when his military vehicle hit a roadside bomb while traveling in a convoy in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 30, 2004
  40. Petty Officer 2nd Class Jason B. Dwelley 31 Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 14, 3rd Naval Construction Regiment Apopka, Florida Killed when his military vehicle hit a roadside bomb while traveling in a convoy in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 30, 2004
  41. Cpl. Scott M. Vincent 21 2nd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force Bokoshe, Oklahoma Died due to hostile action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 30, 2004
  42. Cpl. Joshua S. Wilfong 22 2nd Combat Engineer Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force Walker, West Virginia Died due to hostile action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 30, 2004

In other news, fuck you all, I'm giving myself a self-awarded barnstar for that research ;) :P Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 03:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no need for such language. Where is your source? Wandalstouring 15:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More casualties that Sherurcij missed

Here's another eleven soldiers that Sherurcij didn't put in his count.

43. Pfc. Moises A. Langhorst, 19, of Moose Lake, Minn.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 5 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

44. 2nd Lt. John T. Wroblewski, 25, of Oak Ridge, N.J.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; died April 6 of injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

45. Pfc. Deryk L. Hallal, 24, of Indianapolis, Ind.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

46. Navy Petty Officer 3rd Class Fernando A. Mendez-Aceves, 27, of Ponce, Puerto Rico; assigned to the Naval Medical Center San Diego, 1st Marine Division Detachment, San Diego; killed April 6 while conducting combat operations in the Anbar province, Iraq.

47. Pfc. Christopher R. Cobb, 19, of Bradenton, Fla.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

48. Lance Cpl. Travis J. Layfield, 19, of Fremont, Calif.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

49. Marine Staff Sgt. Allan K. Walker, 28, of Lancaster, Calif.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

50. Lance Cpl. Kyle D. Crowley, 18, of San Ramon, Calif.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

51. Pfc. Ryan M. Jerabek, 18, of Oneida, Wis.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

52. Lance Cpl. Marcus M. Cherry, 18, of Imperial, Calif.; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

53. Lance Cpl. Benjamin R. Carman, 20, of Jefferson, Iowa; assigned to 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, Calif.; killed April 6 by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq.

And also here is a link to veryfied information that 731 Iraqis were killed.http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2004/04/30/around_1361_were_iraqis_killed_in_april/

I can't believe there's no official US source for the number of fatalities in the operation, most frustrating to be digging through this ourselves. By the way, I think http://www.iraqbodycount.net/resources/falluja/ is a better resource, for citing the 616 Fallujan casualties claim, so updating. :) Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 22:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Result

Somebody changed the result of the battle from Insurgent strategic victory to temporary insurgent success, that is unfair, because it WAS an insurgent victory. Was it a temporary German success when the Germans took Paris? C'mon people!

Afterwards most French capitulated and France was split between regions controlled by the Wehrmacht and such under Vichy. Insurgent victory isn't that clear because the resolution of this conflict resulted in a non-US control, but still the US pulled the strings. I stick with stating it was no success for the US. Wandalstouring 15:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-protect

For anybody who has this page watchlisted, I am debating applying for semi-protection since our anonymous vandal can't be blocked since he's using a non-static IP (originating from the same locale, identical edits, but non-identical IP addresses) for a week or so, while work is made to improve this article. It would only prevent anonymous editors from editing the article, everybody else is still strongly encouraged to help rewrite it. If you have any objections, speak now or forever hold your peace, etc, etc Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 23:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice upgrade, the page definitely looks better than before, btw to try and compromise with the anon editor I made use of a dual name system for the info box but retained all the edits you have done, and added some sources to the article.Freepsbane 17:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

M'eh, I'd still argue that tactically it was clearly an insurgent victory, but I'll let sleeping dogs lie in the infobox for now, as I hope to focus the bulk of clean-up on the main body of the article. You did a fantastic job finding sources for a bunch of those statements, which really cleans up the page and turns it from "some anonymous editor's opinion", to a well-referenced article. I'm off to Rome for a week, but when I get back, I'll try and help you clean up some more :) Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 20:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Material I deleted

I deleted:

Shortly after the elections however, U.S. troops were stationed inside the former Ba'ath Party headquarters, to oversee a military occupation of the city, ignoring the town council.[citation needed] This move was criticised in the media as being "undemocratic".[7]

Why: The information that we "ignored the town council" has no citation and is false. Back up this assertion with an article or I am removing it. Secondly, the article that is cited that supposedly says the media "criticised in the media as being 'undemocratic'" does not actually ever say anything of the sort. I find this assertion bizzare if it was made by the media since the entire country was under military occupation, but if the media ever did make such a criticism we cannot know from the citation provided: (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/29/sprj.irq.falluja/index.html).


I agree that the country was occupied and governed by the military. The choice of words in the article isn't good, fact is the US military administration didn't bother with some council that had been set up there. The democratic process for the establishment of this council isn't verified, but it seems to have had some links to influential people/groups. Wandalstouring 15:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I also deleted:

After repeated small-scale attacks against US troops, the Fallujah Protection Force was created as an Iraqi militia in support of the US presence.[citation needed] However, public sentiment within the city rapidly shifted towards anti-US feelings, and the increasing tensions resulted in a nightly 19:00-06:00 curfew[8], which only further solidified public opinion against the occupation.

Why: Because I am pretty confident that the Fallujah Protection Force was not created before the curfew or the incident at the school house. Information about the FPF should be included, but someone who has some accurate and perhaps more detailed info about the FPF should put it in. As it stands, the article hints that the FPF was created much earlier then it seems physically possible for the soldiers in Fallujah to do so (we had only been there a few days at that point).

Secondly, the article cited about the curfew is an article a year after the events of this section occured. There was an unenforced curfew when we first arrived in Fallujah (because we didn't have enough troops to enforce it, or even inform all the residents about it). I don't see how that could have much of an affect on the mood of Fallujah citizens. There was plenty else they were angry about. In any case, the article cited does not back up this claim: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/05/iraq.main/index.html


If you feel something mentioned in an article is doubtful put up a [citation needed] template and tell on the discussion page what you feel is questionable. Than wait a few days (some of us have a live besides wikipedia). If the issue hasn't been sufficiently cited by then delet it, but otherwise deleting is considered very rude behaviour. Wandalstouring 15:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I added info to the statement:

After several protestors fired weapons into the air, US soldiers stationed on the roof began firing into the gathered crowd, killing 13. Two days later, a protest decrying the American shootings was also fired upon by US troops resulting in two more deaths.[9]

Why:Because this passage does not indicate that the soldiers claimed (were) fired upon first by the crowd. For this reason I simply added:

In both incidents US soldiers assert that they did not fire upon the crowds until they were first fired upon.

- Atfyfe 19:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That is a difficult issue because in this area people tend to fire guns on all occasions. If I remember correctly even during Saddam's time there had been regulations on firing into the air during celebrations (if you fire straight upwards in a crowded place with lots of people around you some bystanders get possibly hurt when the bullets fall down again). For celebrating crowds it is safer to fire upwards in an angle that let's bullets fall down outside of the crowd's place. Well, that can be pretty close to firing on somebody standing on the surrounding roofs (a behaviour typical for NATO, European and Israelian military, but something quite new to the Iraqis). Perhaps this section needs some more research what really happened. Most likely the accounts will differ because everyday things like shooting in the air will not be considered an aggressive or even mentionworth act from the natives point of view. Naturally the possibility of aimed or "misaimed" attacks included.Wandalstouring 15:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed or aborted

It's really pretty easy to understand what the difference is, a failed operation was carried out or completed while failing to meet its objectives, and an aborted or abortive one was for some reason stopped before having a chance to meet its objectives. I really don't know why this is a big issue but I'm not going to continue fighting with stubborn editors. Rmt2m 14:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

By your definition then, Pearl Harbor wasn't an American loss, because troops never surrendered? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm sorry, that came across snarky, but I'm pointing out that if an army withdraws because they are unable to complete their objectives (at that time, they returned later that year and the Second Battle of Fallujah was a US victory), then it's a failure. I'm strongly on the side of labelling this battle as a Insurgent victory (failed US attempt to recapture...), and the second battle of Fallujah as the opposite. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 12:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I never mentioned surrender, I don't know where you got that from. Pearl Harbor wasn't an American operation, therefore it would make sense that they couldn't cease operations. Market Garden was a failure, Tet was a failure, but Vigilant Resolve was halted amid promises from the Iraqi gov't to quell the insurgency through talks. There is a difference. Rmt2m 01:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I'm good with the anonymous editor's change to "unsuccessful", if that works for you. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 02:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Fine with me. Rmt2m 03:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General notes to add into article

  • I recall the talk at the time, of US troops occupying the city's hospitals - and refusing to allow military-age Iraqis with gunshot wounds to be treated. Only link I find at the moment is this Ha'aretz article, but I'll find more later. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 09:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
All medical staff of the hospital would have been oath bound to defy this US-order. Perhaps the source misquoted something (that often happens in journalism). Wandalstouring 15:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I would really like to see a template Template:BlackWaterDeaths be created allowing us to simply insert it into the many articles that have exactly one paragraph about the deaths, allowing the WP community as a whole to expand, whittle down, and create a single description of the events. What's valid and NPOV in First Battle of Fallujah is equally valid and NPOV in Blackwater USA. I know it goes against all WP precedent on the purpose of templates, but damned if it wouldn't be nice. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 01:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

How exactly should this Black Water Template work? I would tend towards a larger construction about mercenaries and private armies. Wandalstouring 15:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General note about casualties, dates and other numbers
This article is a frequent source of heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here.

Just a note to all editors, especially those new to this article, who change the dates or casualty numbers freely - it is important to note that the United States "Operation Vigilant Resolve" lasted only five days, while the actual battle carried on throughout the month. This article is about the overall battle, not just what happened until April 9th, or whatever. Cheers :) Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 23:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

  • That's all well and good but the numbers are still wrong. Unfortunately it seems that the British rag you are using for a reference is also counting casualties from Ramadi, Al Quaim, etc... I would seriously question any numbers that report the KIA figure as being higher than that of the WIA figure. Usually it is a 1 to 2 or 1 to 3 ratio. Those numbers would also be wrong even if you added RCT-1's casualty figures from May, June and July as well. The first battle of Fallujah consisted of those events in the city of Fallujah and the KIA figures were in or around 35. Not all of Al Anbar province. The reason I have not changed it is that I have notsourced a reference. Saying I was there does not count. The only reference I could provide is a picture of the Memorial Wall that RCT-1 had in Iraq.....those dead Marines and soldiers that you "Do not speak for".--Looper5920 00:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
53 killed, that I've seen listed on the talk page. I think we're best to focus on using individual names, than relying on news reports that just say "x people were killed" - for this, since it seems to be highly misreported, both over and under. If you can grab a list of names, that'd be useful. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 00:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm with Looper5920 I crossreferenced the units from where the killed guys came and came to the number 33, but I have crossreferenced them once again and have lowered the number once again. If the names of the participating units are correct than that would mean that only 26 Marines and soldiers were killed from April 4th to May 1st when the Americans withdrew from the city. I think we should decide with what number to go with 26,33 or more than 83 as some say which is just stupid. Before any of you make any jugment check the units as I did, I have already put the names of the killed and their units on this discussion page and crossreferenc them. See if it is 26 or 33, one of those. It most certanly is not 83.--Top Gun 01:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
53 Anbar deaths - 20 Ramadi/Husaybah deaths = 33 Fallujah deaths, which seems the most accurate to me, shall we go with that? I'm still unclear where anybody is pulling 83 from. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 00:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
OK I just want to say it's frustrating that there is no OFFICIAL NUMBER of killed so we have to dig through all these names. OK Sherurcij you are dead on the money about those 20 Ramadi/Husaybah deaths, but I have found another 7 deaths that occured in Ramadi and Husaybah during april and were not releated to those battles but happened eather before them or after them. So 53 Anbar deaths - 20 Ramadi/Husaybah deaths - another 7 Ramadi/Husaybah deaths = 26 Fallujah deaths and all those corespond to the units involved. I will put the seven other names here so you can verify. Shall we then finaly put it 26 and be done with this already? And also put up a notice or something that nobody changes the number. The other seven non-Fallujah deaths:

Lance Cpl. Aric J. Barr 22 2nd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Died of injuries received from enemy action in Anbar Province, Iraq, on April 4, 2004 (Hit)

Pfc. Geoffery S. Morris 19 Weapons Company, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Gurnee, Illinois Died of injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 4, 2004 (Ramadi)

Lance Cpl. Christopher B. Wasser 21 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Ottawa, Kansas Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 8, 2004 (Husaybah)

Lance Cpl. Elias Torrez III 21 Weapons Company, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Veribest, Texas Died from hostile fire in Iraq on April 9, 2004 (Husaybah)

Pfc. Chance R. Phelps 19 L Battery, 3rd Battalion, 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Clifton, Colorado Killed by hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 9, 2004 (Ramadi-was killed as part of Battle of Ramadi, will have to add him to the count)

Petty Officer 3rd Class Christopher M. Dickerson 33 Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 14, 3rd Naval Construction Regiment Eastman, Georgia Killed when his military vehicle hit a roadside bomb while traveling in a convoy in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 30, 2004 (Ramadi)

Petty Officer 2nd Class Jason B. Dwelley 31 Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 14, 3rd Naval Construction Regiment Apopka, Florida Killed when his military vehicle hit a roadside bomb while traveling in a convoy in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 30, 2004 (Ramadi) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Top Gun (talk • contribs) 03:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC).


Sorry if I sound blunt but the Guardian says 83 KIA in Fallujah and as one of brit’s largest news papers it holds precedent over original research and we are going to stick to policy rather than the Danger Zone, so as per Wikipedia:Reliable sources we are going to use the Guardian’s body count rather than Top Gun’s original Research. If you don’t think that this is the way to go than contact an admin, but we are striking to rules and verified numbers rather than tabulating guesses.Freepsbane 04:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again I would just like to remind every one that Wikipedia Policy is very clear in this matter, the well known British “rag” trumps any editor’s original research no mater how well it may have been done.Freepsbane 04:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

He is not tabluating original research, he is posting up verified PUBLISHED casualty lists. Just because a single newspaper backgrounder gives an (incorrect) number, is no reason to continue that misinformation. Every source except that one backgrounder gives the number of KIA as somewhere between 20-50...that single backgrounder in the Guardian makes an unsourced claim of 80+ KIA, and it's been pointed out that...what a coincidence...if the Guardian was accidentally using Ramadi + Husaybah + Fallujah statistics...they would come up with 80+. Reverting to "20-53" for right now, until we establish clear consensus, but there's definitely no call to be posting a casualty number up to 400% higher than actual. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 04:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

We cant fix this by consensus, you cant verify information solely on editor consensus. This issue needs to get checked out by Arb com. This affair deals with the RS criteria and needs looking at from the higher ups.Freepsbane 04:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC) Ps. I would like to know where the information for the casualty lists above came from.

Another source - On page 342 of Thomas E. Ricks' book Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq, I quote: "Mattis was furious. 39 Marines and U.S. Soldiers had died - for what? "If you are going to take Vienna, take fucking Vienna!' he snarled at Gen. Abazaid......" --Looper5920 11:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I read that book and that part quote was from before the withdrawal so it comes before the endof the battle the final count was ceartanly much higher, we need a better sourceMarshalbannana 13:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Further more that quotation (according to the book) was from the end of the 1st week of fighting (around April 9). So if 39 deaths had already occurred in one week it is more than likely that in the remaining 3 weeks of the engagement (until may 1) the 44 missing casualties would occur this seems to add further evidence to the 83 theory. On a other note Fiasco states that at one point due to insurgent raids the 1st marine’s supplies had been reduced to less than two days worth of consumables should we add that to the article it may have been a factor in terminating the operation?Marshalbannana 17:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

There were not 83 KIA. Yes those figures were for the first part of the operation but after the 9th things went stagnant. The Muj would get out of prayers...fire a few shots...then eventually things would escalate to where they would get a few tank rounds and then a few 500lb bombs dropped on them and then things would be quiet. Everyone was hunkered down and dug in by that point as well. The AC-130 kept the peace at night. Between April 9th and April 27th that is about all that happened. The exception being April 28th when 2/2 made a push from the south, met heavy resistance and then expeneded enormous amounts of GBUs with some good effects. The whole low supplies thing was for a few days in the beginning of the month and had nothing to do with the ending of the campaign.--Looper5920 19:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
OK people look. There were not 83 KIA. The Guardian was wrong. Damn, there were not even 83 killed in Anbar that month, there were only 53 killed in Anbar. Of those 21 were killed in Ramadi from April 6th to April 10th and during the battle of Husaybah. Plus another 6 were killed in Ramadi and Husaybah on other dates during April. That is not to hard to calculate. 53 - (21 + 6) = 26. 26 killed. Forget the newspaper stick to hard facts. Freepsbane asks were I got my information It's not so hard to find the names and units you got them at http://www.icasualties.org/oif and other sites. I just compared the units of the killed to the location of where they were stationed. 26 of the 53 killed in Anbar were all part of the participating units involved in the attack. the other 27 were stationed at Ramadi and Husaybah. For God's sake it's so obvius. 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, 1st Marine Division and 3rd Battalion, 11th Marine Regiment were at Ramadi, 2nd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment was at Hit, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment was at Husaybah and the Naval construction battalion was at Ramadi. Do not just rely on one countrys newspaper. If you would bother to check the information as I did you would come to the same conclusion as I did. 23 of the deaths occured by April 14th after that only three more Marines were killed by May 1st, on April 26th and April 30th. The number for sure can not be 83 if that was the case then more than 150 American soldiers were killed in comparisan to the real number of 126 in April 2004. We need to put the real number. We can not just blindly put a number just one newspaper says so. This should be an encyclopidia. Hard facts people. And if you would edit these articles check the information yourself before you change anything. Out of the 53 killed in Anbar 21 were killed in the battles of Ramadi and Husaybah and another 6 on other days during April. Only 26 were killed in Fallujah.--Top Gun 21:45, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Top Gun It seems you are mistaken, it has already been established by the others with Thomas E. Ricks‘ Fiasco that 39 marines perished in the first Four days of combat, so we know it is certainly not your 26, further more as the Marshal pointed out if 39 fatalities were sustained in only four days of an engagement spanning from April 4 to May 1 it is certainly possible that the remaining 44 deaths would have occurred in the skirmishing that followed the initial incursion. On a final note while you may have gotten the names from a website the (faulty) math you have done is clearly original research, so as you said we should stick to the facts and use the Book and Newspaper as our sources, not an editor’s cobbled together list, (the 26-39 error clearly demonstrates the flaw with OR). I urge everyone to brush up on Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research before resorting to such estimates. At any rate I believe this incident can only be solved through an Arbitration committee, so if no one objects we should forward this case to ArbCom. Freepsbane 23:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

On an final note if you disagree with the published number of 83 take it up with the Guardians authors, email them or write to them just for God’s sake don’t take it out on me I am only trying to keep up with Wikipedia Guidelines, So don’t saturate my talkpage with hostile comments. Freepsbane 23:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Listen man the Guardian can make mistakes and you shouldnt keep just to that one news article blindly. If you would bother to check like Sherurcij and I did you would see that ONLY 53 soldiers were killed in Anbar and at least 21 were confirmed killed in the battles of Ramadi and Husaybah that is not faulty math as you said. It's faulty that you are so nearsighted. And as for the Thomas E. Ricks‘ Fiasco that says 39 marines perished in the first four days of combat I have checked and veryfied he ment 39 killed in the whole of the country not just in Fallujah if you would check the list of the casualties on http://www.icasualties.org/oif you will see that 39 were killed in the whole country from april 4th to april 8th. He ment the whole country. You can not go against reality man. And those were not hostile comments I am just discusing about a thing that you do not want to here about and are holding on to blindly to a wrong peace of information. The evidence is right in front of you. I am also for it to forward this case to ArbCom. Top Gun 00:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As I stated I am not blindly holding to flawed info, the article is from a large well regarded source while your proposed addition lacks sources, and is conflicted by other info, most notably Fiasco that states the fatalities occurred exclusively in Fallujah. Now please go and read the wikipedia policy links I provided and see that definite priority is given to major sources, with both of the two we have correlating with each other 39 reported on april 9th, (fiasco) and 83 reported on may 1st (The Guardian), doesn't seem to blind to me. If you could please give me a verifiable and sourced count (from a major organization) that conflicts with the two above it would be useful.Freepsbane 02:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore the ICC link you gave me says nothing to support your claims whether direct or indirect, and it lacks the notability or authority of one of the most prestigious newspapers in Brittan.Freepsbane 02:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
A published list of individual US soldiers killed, outranks a Guardian backgrounder slideshow *and* it outranks the book. Why? Because both of those authors were "guesstimating", they did not provide facts (read, names, AARs) to back up their claims. You're going to have a hard time arguing that the US Army accidentally "lost" 60 soldiers without even noticing it in the years following. We have shown you a complete list of 50-odd soldiers killed that month...if you think we are missing soldiers, please provide the names, units or actions that the US Army has "forgotten" to report dozens of fatalities from. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 03:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
The ICC webpage you showed me is unaffiliated with the United States military or any other large organizations, a quick Wikipedia search shows which of the three is more notable and it certainly isn't the website. Further more if it lacks affiliation with other reliable sources how are we to know if it’s information is reliable. The book and newspaper are at least peer reviewed and published by notable individuals and organizations holding authority on the subject, when choosing between a relatively obscure website and two notable published materials the correct choice should have been obvious. Freepsbane 14:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


Ok well first of all I have to say that from where i'm standing this looks like an issue of one point with a potentially flawed but notable resource: The guardian and another point with a non notable, unverifiable source requiring the editor to go into a counting game to find the total; the http://www.icasualties.org/oif website. The only other good source Rick’s Fiasco established a fatality count of thirty nine by the fourth day, ruling decisively against the out icasualties eliminating the possibility User: Top Gun’s claim of 26 for the month long battle while at the same time supporting user: Frepsbane’s Guardian link by showing after that only four days into the battle 39 of the 83 deaths had occurred and leaving a window of three weeks to fill up the remaining casualties the guardian listed by may 1. in the three weeks of skirmishing that followed the first four days it is certainly possible to fit in a window for the missing 44. so by the above factors I am definitely inclined to come out for the Guardian and Fiasco, over the obscure website and math. On a final note I would like to thank everyone for having the sense to negotiate this dispute in the talkpage rather than burning down the article page in a massive editwar. However I believe we must take care to ensure that trolls that have avoided the talk page and make senseless edits don’t brake down this fragile compromise and draw us into a all-out editwar. We need to remember that nobody is actually attacking the other and to take care to be civil in our discussions lest we run the risk of ending this diplomacy. If we have to we can use Arb but I believe we can sort this out ourselves.Marshalbannana 19:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You want notable, how about CNN, one of the worlds largest news networks, you want to say that they are not a large verifyble organisation check out their list of casualties for april 2004 at http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/2004.04.html Count the number of servicemen that are killed in the whole month it will be 126 , not including other foreign forces, and count the number of those stated by the DoD to be killed in Anbar it will be only 53 and those DO NOT include only in Fallujah but Husaybah and Ramadi also. Check that list and do not tell me that Wikipedia does not recognise CNN. Or maybe the Washington post at http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/ What's up with this Guardian it's not the only news source in the world guys. Check out CNN's and Washington posts sites. When you check you will see that it maches the ICC webpage and it will also mach http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html That's four sources against only one the Guardian , of which two are NOTABLE CNN news and the Washington post. Guys some news sources can make mistakes. And don't tell me now that both CNN and the Washington post are wrong (plus to ICC and Honor the fallen memorial sites). Check these sites and you will see that the Guardian source is uterly inacurate. Top Gun 22:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

After searching the Washington Post,and CNN list you have kindly provided I have found more than enough deaths occurred in the period from April 4 to May 1 in the Anbar province, and the vague location“Iraq” to account for the death toll given in The Guardian, furthermore the death rates run congruent with the information stated on Fiasco so we know that at the least we are dealing with 39 fatalities by mid April. Is there a chance that while compiling the list you may have forgotten to include individuals? Freepsbane 00:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Both Top Gun and I, in compiling the lists of exact names of soldiers killed, researched (ie: googled, or knew off-hand) the names and/or divisions of the soldiers listed only as "Killed in Iraq" or "Killed in Anbar province", to remove those that were clearly killed outside Fallujah. My list of 42 and the list immediately after it pointing out I'd accidently cut/pasted instead of copy/pasted 11 names, mean there are a total of 53 soldiers that list either "Fallujah" or "Anbar/Iraq" without any other immediately-found more descriptive place/circumstances of death. Top Gun then weeded out a further 30 deaths, based chiefly on the divisions/regiments/battalions being based out of which city...which isn't necessarily 100% accurate, but is certainly very helpful...and that number brought us down to 23 soldiers who were stationed in Fallujah, and died, during that month. You're welcome to argue that maybe one of the guys was in Fallujah unofficially...or a truckload of soldiers from Husaybah were killed while driving past Fallujah...but that still leaves a maximum of 53 US soldiers killed. If you are able to find a name of a soldier killed in Fallujah during the battle that Top Gun and I (or the anonymous editor, if that wasn't TG) missed, then I think everybody would agree that we should adjust the casualty numbers to support the new names you've found...but I think that try as you might, you won't be able to find any. But you are of course welcome, even encouraged, to prove me wrong. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 00:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
You mentioned something very important, as we already know date and time does not apply rigidly in this engagement, perhaps the same is true about location, much of the combat involving this engagment (particularly after april 9th) took place outside the residential zones within the city but instead inside it’s surrounding countryside and roads, perhaps this explains the count discrepancy, as I would assume that some may have counted solely the city while others may have counted the citiy and its local roads. Perhaps this issue may be resolved by splitting the casualty count, providing deaths strictly within the city, and beneath it providing deaths within the city and its surroundings. Freepsbane 01:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I have already pointed the exact location of every death in Anbar during that month relaying on locations of the units the killed guys belonged to. I also put on this talk page the names of the cities those were totaly diferent battles Husaybah and Ramadi. Do not rely only on time.
Ramadi – 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment and 3rd battalion, 11th marine regiment (artillery),
Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 14
Husaybah – 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment
Hit – 2nd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment
These were the locations of individual units during the battle that were not at Fallujah and these units corespond to 27 of the 53 deaths in Anbar during that period. Listen already Freepsbane I have tryed to be civilised but you do not want to listen I did not forgot to include individuals. Look at CNN's or the Posts lists and they clearly state the location of each individual's death. You say enough deaths occured from April 4 to May 1 to coroborate your story well that's not not the TRUTH you just calculated the number of killed in the whole of Iraq that month but man there was a Shia uprising and the insurgency was also in other parts of the country not just Fallujah or the province in which it is Anbar. If you would read the locations of the deaths of the killed soldiers you will see that out of the deaths that occured from April 4 to May 1 ONLY 53 WERE LISTED AS KILLED IN ANBAR PLUS ANBAR DOESN'T INCLUDE ONLY FALLUJAH. ALL OF THE OTHERS LIST THE EXACT CITY WHERE THE INDIVIDUAL WAS KILLED I THINK EVEN THAT 26 WERE KILLED IN BAGHDAD ALONE THAT MONTH, THERE WERE GUYS KILLED IN BAQUBA, TIKRIT, SAMARA, KIRKUK, MOSUL ETC. ONLY 53 OUT OF 126 WERE KILLED IN ANBAR. WHEN WILL THAT GET IN TO YOUR HEAD. THE GUARDIAN IS WRONG CNN, THE WASHINGTON POST, FOX NEWS (YES THERE IS A LIST THERE TOO) AND ICC ARE ALL RIGHT. AND AS FOR THE QOUTE OF 39 FROM THE BOOK THE GENERAL PROBABLY MADE A MISTAKE WHEN HE SAID 39 KILLED IN FALLUJAH IT WAS PROBABLY 39 KILLED IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY AND, WHAT DO YOU KNOW, AROUND 45 WHERE KILLED IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY THAT ONLY 6 WERE KILLED OUTSIDE OF FALLUJAH DURING THE FIRST WEEK. 8 SOLDIERS DIED ON APRIL 4 IN BAGHDAD ALONE DURING THE BATTLE IN SADR CITY ALL MAJOR NEWS SOURCES SAID THAT ON THAT DAY EVEN YOUR GUARDIAN. And I am done playing with you. You and Marshalbannana are citing faulty information it is wrong and I am going to change the number every time you put it and also cite the post and cnn's count and ICC's count and you can sob all you want but that doesn't change reality. I and Sherurcij have enough evidence to coroborate the number of killed to be at least 26 to 32 and if you want to go to administatration or Arbcom go ahead you will loose. And I am done. Top Gun 01:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Just FYI, MarshalBanana is a sockpuppet[1], he is not an actual WIkipedian, he is an account that "somebody" created to agree with them and make it look like they have support for their cause than they really do. Freepsbane is likely the only person really arguing for including the demonstrably wrong "83" figure, and he has a history of ('being accused of') edit-warring, adding incorrect information to Iraq War articles and POV-pushing. But like you, (Top Gun), I have no problem with ArbCom involvement. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 02:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the support Sherurcij. I have currently erased the number 83 and put for the moment the number of dead to be 26 to 32 killed. Because like we have stated time and again the number of killed in Anbar that month was 53 and at least 21 were confirmed killed during the Battles of Ramadi (April 6-10) and Husaybah (April 17). So that leaves only 32 more. But out of these six do not belong to the units participating in the battle so if everybody agrees (I know you won't Freepsbane, but after everything that happened your vote doesn't count) then we will put the number finaly to be 26. There is no need to think this is a low number for a battle for a city because the fighing was concetrated only in the industrial part of the city only 25 percent of the city and we have confirmed that 95 American and 8 Iraqi soldiers were killed during the second battle which was 100 percent of the city, that was 103 killed so I say that a number of 26 would be a real good estimate. Yes the insurgents were dug in preaty good but the street fighting was only for the first four or five days after that the Americans already stoped the attack and only air strikes and artillery fire insued. So if nobody objects I will leave for now 26 to 32 killed but will revert the number down to 26 by the beginning of next week. And Freepsbane learn to count not just belive every word you are said by one newspaper out of a thousand. Top Gun (Top Gun) 02:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The allegations stated above pertaining to me are clearly false and only marked an attempt at trolling no evidence was presented, as a result I need not comment on that above segment. However as some inaccuracies have been spread by the above user I feel it necessary to correct some factual errors. First and foremost I do not regularly engage in editwarring nor have a history of disruptive edits, I was once involved in an editwar with a user that turned out to be a throwaway sockpuppet account [2] but as far as editwaring went that is the extent as noted by the fact that I have never been blocked. As for being controversial Sherurcij should not be one to talk.Freepsbane 01:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Don’t be foolish the accusations were completely motivated by the fact that I opposed the other editor’s actions and I was cleared of the charges, you lacking any good or reliable sources and having had your claims contradicted by all media whether news or book are resorting to Personal attacks to get your point across. Marshalbannana 19:20, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The accusations were not motivated by the fact that you oposed my actions as an editor. I am not lacking any good or reliable sources. My claims are not beaing contradicted. CNN, Fox news and Washington post sources as well as numeres sites which list the number of casualties have said that only 53 were killed in Anbar that month and after extensive reserch based on cited sources 27 have been confirmed killed in Fallujah. Your sources are disputed. The Guardian says 83 killed in Fallujah, what, did the Army magicly forget to report the deaths of 30 soldiers killed, you can even say 50 because 20 have been also confirmed killed in Ramadi and Husaybah. And for the book that was probably a mistake by the general, 39 was probably the overall number in the entyre country. And also I don't belive that Marshalbannana is a real editor because there have been numeres other complaints about him and I belive it is realy Freepsbane but that doesn't matter. Me, Sherurcij and Looper5920 have reached a consensus on the number of killed as beaing 27. You are the only one arguing. So drop it already. This is an encyclopidia you can not put false information here. Top gun 20:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The 'poorly reported' names

For whatever reason, some of the names of those killed in Anbar that month are poorly reported, both by the DoD, and the media. The following six names did not have their place/circumstances of death made clear, and could have been killed in Fallujah. We've gone through each name, looking for independent confirmation of the nature of their death, and come up with the following... Lance Cpl. Aric J. Barr 22 2nd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Died of injuries received from enemy action in Anbar Province, Iraq, on April 4, 2004 (His designation suggests he was stationed in Hit)

A friend who saw him die recalls it being in Hit[3]

Pfc. Geoffery S. Morris 19 Weapons Company, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Gurnee, Illinois Died of injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 4, 2004 (His designation suggests he was stationed in Ramadi)

Suggested Fallujah, but not explicitly said[4]
near the towns of Fallujah and Ramadi[5]
Explicitly says he was killed in Battle for Fallujah[6]
Says he was killed in Fallujah[7]
Government site saying he was killed in Fallujah[8]

Lance Cpl. Christopher B. Wasser 21 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Ottawa, Kansas Died due to injuries received from hostile fire in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 8, 2004 (His designation suggests he was stationed in Husaybah)

Shrapnel from a bomb[9] in Husaybah[10]

Lance Cpl. Elias Torrez III 21 Weapons Company, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Veribest, Texas Died from hostile fire in Iraq on April 9, 2004 (His designation suggests he was stationed in Husaybah)

...died as a result of wounds received in Sa’dah, Iraq [11]. Sa'dah is a very small Iraqi village of approximately 1000 residents.[12], just outside Husaybah.

Petty Officer 3rd Class Christopher M. Dickerson 33 Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 14, 3rd Naval Construction Regiment Eastman, Georgia Killed when his military vehicle hit a roadside bomb while traveling in a convoy in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 30, 2004 (His designation suggests he was stationed in Ramadi)

Confirmed to be killed in Ramadi by iCasualties

Petty Officer 2nd Class Jason B. Dwelley 31 Naval Mobile Construction Battalion 14, 3rd Naval Construction Regiment Apopka, Florida Killed when his military vehicle hit a roadside bomb while traveling in a convoy in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 30, 2004 (His designation suggests he was stationed in Ramadi)

Confirmed to be killed in Ramadi by iCasualties

So we are now only dealing with Pfc. Geoffery S. Morris who looks like he should be added to the casualty list. Any help finding further info on him? (This next comment likely violates WP:NOR and cannot be considered to be a source itself, it is merely to help us on the talk page, but looking at (34.3717, 41.0886) on Google Maps, and this map of al-Anbar, it would appear Torrez's village of death is nowhere near Ramadi, Fallujah or Hit...and seems to be in the same specific geographical location as Al-Qa'im (town) or Husaybah[13]) Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 07:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I saw how you took it down to only two more guys that are disputed and I can clear that now.

Lance Cpl. Elias Torrez III 21 Weapons Company, 3rd Battalion, 7th Marines, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Veribest, Texas Died from hostile fire in Iraq on April 9, 2004 (His designation suggests he was stationed in Husaybah)

...died as a result of wounds received in Sa’dah, Iraq [6]. Sa'dah is a very small Iraqi village of approximately 1000 residents.[7], not sure if it's outside Fallujah, Husaybah or whatnot...Iraqi geography anyone? Well the link you put for Sadah says that nearby towns are Karabilah and Al Qaim, Husaybah is just east of Al Qaim and west of Karabilah.


Pfc. Geoffery S. Morris 19 Weapons Company, 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force Gurnee, Illinois Died of injuries received from enemy action in Anbar province, Iraq, on April 4, 2004 (His designation suggests he was stationed in Ramadi)

Well there is no link that says that he died in Fallujah or Ramadi but his unit designation is that of the unit that lost all of it's other guys that month in Ramadi or nearby. I wouldn't think that they would just send one wepons company from a whole battalion to the battle.

And with this I think we can finish this once and for all.Top Gun 07:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Well researched gentlemen. I find I have to step away sometimes during arguments like these because I used to fire off some heated barbs and that does no one any good. If it came down to it, I have a picture from the 1st Marines memorial in their COC from August 2004 and it shows names and photos, clarity is so-so, and from late March through early August their was a total of 47 KIA in the regiment. One was an Iraqi translator and 3 or 4 were US Army from an MP company from 1/32 that was attached during April. I was reluctant to upload it and am glad I did not have to. Thanks again for the exhaustive research.--Looper5920 07:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Top Gun, looks like we edit-conflicted on Torrez, who would like count as a Husaybah fatality (or possibly not...but definitely not a Falluja fatality) - but I would still support including Morris in our casualty count - it's entirely possible as I said, that he was killed while doing a transport run to the Fallujan troops, or was on R&R and unofficially volunteered with his friends in another division...consensus seems to be that for some reason, one guy who wasn't stationed in Fallujah, died in Fallujah. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 08:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

OK so we will put it 27 in the end. ([[(Top Gun) 19:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPR

During my research I stumbled onto an NPR news story that put the death toll at 83 [14] Saying in a transcript “Mr. JOHN KALE WESTON (State Department Adviser): Well, in Fallujah, we had 83 Marines and service members who were killed” as you know this was said by a member of the state department and it was reported by NPR and NBC [15] this is a decisive bit of information and is definitively the final word in the matter. At least against the hodgepodge list of Guestimated deaths we had. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.61.16.21 (talk) 01:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC). some more intresting minor suporting sources Put the us casualty count (for iraq as a whole) at 83 by april 15 [16]not important but intresting nonetheless

It is not the final word. It is higly likely that NPR and NBC just copied what the Guardian said because it is well known that on the Net various news agencys say the exactly same text. No matter it is still three notable sources (CNN, Washington post, Fox news) + various other lessknown webpages that support the claim of 27 against the Guardian and NPR and NBC who probably copied the Guardians claim without veryfing it. And also you said that some more intresting minor suporting sources Put the us casualty count (for iraq as a whole) at 83 by april 15 not important but intresting nonetheless. Well it is sgnificent because that proves my point that the number 83 you are hung on to is just the number by April 15th. And one question I didn't see you user 208.61.16.21 here before. Freepsbane or should I call you Marshalbannanas cut the act. That is the third identity with which you are trying to impose your number of crazy 83 killed and 1000 wounded as you said. Wooo 1000 wounded what did they decimate a whole American division. I now that was you ebcause I checked the history of user user 208.61.16.21 he just made the first ever edit today on Wikipedia. Freepsbane, Marshalbananas or wathever you are just making a fool out of yourself. There were not even that many wounded during the second more blody battle.([[(Top Gun) 04:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes that was me I forgot to sign in, but unlike you I made no efforts to conceal my identity, and I did not use my IP for any sort of attack or vandalism. I don’t want someone that frequently uses socks for attacks and controversial edits to start lecturing me on sockpuppetry especially if they could potentially be a sock themselves of another user something I am Not. Besides NPR is a service affiliated with the United States government and the casualties were given out by a member of the U.S state department that alone should have been enough.Marshalbannana 13:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Well sorry Marshalbannana but CNN, Fox news, and Washington post not to mention icasualties.org have all made their list of the dead acording to the data issued by the Pentagon and DoD if you would check the DoD's casualties list on their site you will see that 126 American soldiers were killed from April 4 to May 1 2004 and you will see that just 53 are listed in that period as killed in Anbar all the others outside it. Listen I am not a sock puppet as for you I don't know. But Sherurcij and I have enough evidence to coroborate our claim of 27. As for yours. That spoksmen probably just said what he hear at the Guardian like you. And one more thing he said 83 killed and 1,000 wounded. First of 1,300 troops were involved in the attack. So wooo the insurgents then destroyed the entyre attacking force. Also there were not even 1,000 wounded during the second more intense battle. There were just around 700. So listen I am not starting an edit war here it's just you are not listening to reason. Try to come down man and if you would look at the data the real data not just sentences you are given by the Guardian or a spokesman, who like you probably read the guardian, read the names like Sherurcij and I did, read the units crossreferenc them with veryfied data, do a little reaserch I am talking to you now like this to try and come down the situation. I shouldn't be trying to talk peacfuly like this to you not after all the personal attacks YOU made on me with your acusations to admin. But I want this resolved peacfuly and that will not hapen if you continue to put the false number just because you even didn't look at the evidence which Sherurcij and I presented. Everybody else that looked at them agreed with us that it is 27 just look at the names man. If you do this your way you are dishonoring does guys that got killed in Iraq. What you are just going to move the place of death of 56 guys from other parts of the country to Fallujah so it would be yours 83. Listen come down and listen to the real data. Top Gun 17:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Casualty figures

There is a dispute about the casualty numbers going on. Rather than allow the revert war to continue, I've temporarily protected the page from editing while this is ironed out. Please direct all discussion to the talk page. My initial review of citations shows that the current version is supported by reliable figures. I'll make a more detailed review now. Please feel free to discuss it here. — ERcheck (talk) 19:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I've requested some impartial opinions on how to deal with the discrepency between "UK Guardian casualty counts and people who quote it", and "Official casualty lists". Since consensus is currently (rather heavily) on the side of the "27 fatalities" information, I suggest that we leave the article as stating 27 fatalities, possibly with a ((disputed)) tag, but avoid using the 83 number unless the RfC agrees it is best. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 19:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Has an RFC or Mediation request been filed? — ERcheck (talk) 19:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
RfC request just went up as you were protecting Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 19:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to say that I stand by Sherurcij that the number of killed should be 27. The facts are undeniable.Top Gun (talk) 21:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Reliable sources, which include the names of the casualties, do not support the 80+ figure (which is unsourced in the Guardian). The lower number (~27) is supported by reliable sources. In discussions on this talk page, this number also appears to be agreed upon by consensus as being reliable. Unless further information comes to light — which should also be discussed on this talk page — the consensus is for the lower number. So, that should be left in the article. As other editing should be allowed to this page, I'm going to unprotect it. — ERcheck (talk) 04:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes while protected

I'd like to see Image:Al-fallujah april04.jpg placed alongside the December 2003 image already in the article, to contrast the difference in the city before/after the operation. Since the two images are not vitally integral, thumbnail size should be kept relatively small. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 02:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Image:Al-Fallujah-destruction.jpg is the other useful image from the alBasrah archives, most of the others show dead children - which may be important, but I feel would contribute a negative POV to the article - dead civilians is one thing...dead children is just catering to cries of "baby killer" though. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 02:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Yikes! Children are civilians too, the best civilians. Don't be tame.--Shtove 00:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV bias

In the first year or so that this article was written, I submitted several first hand reports during my deployment, working with FOB52 and the 1st RCT, 1st MARDIV during Operation Vigilant Resolve. I stopped submissions to the article due to their constant removal based that they were not properly ‘cited’ from news. Eyewitness accounts, unless published, are not to be allowed.

After not reviewing the article for more than a year, I recently read the article and was amazed at the lack of hard facts, and the amount of rhetoric that was cited from news articles. This article has gone from a source of information about a battle to place for political grandstanding; for both the left and the right.

I agree with Jabbi, this article has developed into a platform, and has little to do with the course of events on the ground. It should be scrapped until the emotional attachment has diminished and it can be written similar to other historical accounts.

--Bufshof 14:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


Examples would be useful. Sherurcij (Speaker for the Dead) 14:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Examples of biased POV in this article

I was asked to provide examples of biased POV in this article. I understand that the articles use approved citations. However, Wikipedia's definition of neutral point of view requires that the bias of the articles are balanced. The main problem is that the article focus is on politically sensitive issues, not the conduct of the operation. I have listed several issue with the article here. The bold comments are mine. Many have citations to give the 'other side of the story'. Many have no citation as they are eyewitnessed accounts by myself.


Casualties: 27 killed, 90+ wounded[3] 184 insurgents, 616 civilians killed (estimated)[4]

(How does someone tell the difference between a dead civilian and a dead insurgent? I supposed you could report any and all bodies as civilians if it suited your needs.)

Major Larry Kaifesh, 36, part of the operation, was quoted as telling the Associated Press the rebels were trying to blend with civilians. "It is hard to differentiate between people who are insurgents or civilians," he said. "It is hard to get an honest picture. You just have to go with your gut feeling." http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/04/11/anger_over_fallujah_reaches_ears_of_the_faithful/?page=2


The First Battle of Fallujah, codenamed Operation Vigilant Resolve by the United States Military, was an aborted attempt by US troops to capture the city of Fallujah in April 2004, as part of the occupation of Iraq.

The operation was designed to pacify violent elements in the area (not 'capture the city'). http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oif-vigilant-resolve.htm

(Orders were given to control the city with TCPs. Our reported preparation indicates this. You dont dig treches and foxholes if you are gearing up for an assault, trenches and foxholes are key indicators for a defense.) Outside Fallujah, troops dug trenches on the city's edges, sealed off roads in and out and imposed a nighttime curfew. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,116144,00.html

(Aborted means that the operation was abandoned. It was not; even within this article it states that the final job of securing the city was handed over to the indigenous troops {a mistake IMO}. The ICDC and police did abandon and even assist the insurgents; however this was not universal.)

Negotiations led to the end of OVR and the creation of the Fallujah Brigade as the means to create stability and security in Fallujah. The FB failed terribly over the next few months in its concept and the city was left as a holdout for the insurgency and terrorism. http://www.cpp.usmc.mil/press/kit/OIFII.asp?http://www.cpp.usmc.mil/press/kit/OIFII.asp


Although the people of Fallujah had grown wealthy and influential under Saddam Hussein, his government was not popular in the city. [7]

(Saddam's goverment placed four major, and several minor military bases around Fallujah to assist in his pacification of the area. These soldier's unemployment, as well as the 20000 inmates release at Abu Gharab prison less than 10 minutes away helped to create a surrogate army for the insurgents. I have no citation, but can point out the numerous bases and the prison's location on an area map. This dosent dispute the article anywhere, but does help to understand the environment prior to the operation.)


Following the collapse of the Ba'ath infrastructure in early 2003, local residents had elected a town council led by Taha Bidaywi Hamed, who managed to keep the city from falling into the control of looters and common criminals. The town council and Hamed were both considered to be nominally pro-American, and their election originally meant that the United States had decided that the city was unlikely to become a hotbed of activity, and didn't require any immediate troop presence.[8]

(Taha was not liked by the citizens of the city, and his 'election' was made by the council in Falluja. During the Falluja Liaison Team (FLT) meetings between coalition and leaders of the city, he consistently maintained that the U.S. was not necessary, there was no insurgency in Falluja, and that the U.S. should withdraw forces back away from Falluja, because nothing was going on.)


Although Fallujah had seen sporadic air strikes by American forces, public opposition was not galvanized until 700 members of the 82nd Airborne Division first entered the city on April 23 2003, and approximately 150 members of Charlie Company occupied al-Qa'id primary school. On the evening of April 28, a crowd of approximately 200 people gathered outside the school, demanding that the Americans vacate the building and allow it to re-open as a school. After their smoke gas canisters failed to disperse the crowd[9], four US soldiers stationed on the roof fired into the gathering, killing 17 and wounding more than 70 of the protesters. US forces said that the shooting took place over 30-60 seconds, while Human Rights Watch has concluded that is is more likely to have lasted approximately ten minutes.[10]

(Insurgents using the crowd as a shield reportedly fired first. The number of artices that stated this is numerous, but none of those made it to this article. I can easily provide several of these.)


Two days later, a protest at the former Baath party headquarters decrying the American shootings was also fired upon by US troops, resulting in three more deaths.[11][12] Following both incidents, US soldiers asserted that they had not fired upon the protestors until they were first fired upon. The soldiers involved became the subject of an After Action Review.

(Once again, articles reporting that insurgents within the crowd fired first were left out. Also, the mention of an After Action Review (AAR) gives the reader the impression of an investigation. AARs are conducted after ALL activities, operations, incidents, patrols or training.)


The 82nd Airborne troops were replaced by forces from the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment and 101st Airborne Division, and on June 4 the 3rd Armoured Cavalry was forced to request an additional 1,500 troops to help quell the growing resistance faced in Fallujah and nearby al-Habaniyya.[13]

(This occurs in mid 2003, units were being moved around all over Iraq. It would be easy to say that this was done due to insurgent activity, but a large scale re-deployment of troops was beginning.)


At the same time, municipal officials began registering complaints with the US forces, explaining that the population was growing agitated by growing reports that individual US soldiers were ogling Iraqi women, and had handed out bubble gum to local children, with scantily-clad women on the wrappers.[14]

(I'm not sure how to answer this, how does a young American used to seeing women in slacks, shorts and skirts 'ogle' a woman in a burka. As far as the candy wrappers, this may be true as a 'scantily clad' woman is one that shows their ankles, to an Iraqi.)


In June, US forces began confiscating motorcycles from local On June 30, a large explosion occurred in a mosque in which the imam, Sheikh Laith Khalil and eight other people were killed. While the local population claimed that Americans had fired a missile at the mosque, US forces insisted that it was an accidental detonation by insurgents training recruits.[16]

(Taking motocycles was not done to purposely antagonize Iraqis (what does this have to do with the operation?) Before the war, the Iraqi Army used these motorcycles as scout vehilcles. The insurgents were putting two men on each; one to shoot, the other to make a fast retreat through narrow streets. U.S. and Iraqi Security Forces both were confiscating the motorcycles to return them as scout vehicles for the ICDC.)


By April 6, the United States had announced that it might not be able to penetrate and successfully hold the entire city.[20][21]

(This is not what the annotated citation states. The Marines wanted to make it clear that thier objectives were limited from the very onset of the operation. The actual citation states;) The Fallujah operation may unfold over several days, and the Marines may not attempt to control the center of the town, military sources said. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/05/iraq.main/index.html


After three days of fighting, it was estimated that the United States had gained control over only 25% of the city, although it was suggested that insurgents had lost a number of key defensive positions.[citation needed] American troops also closed down Fallujah's two main hospitals, Fallujah General Hospital and the Jordanian Hospital.[22]

(This has been a common problem in the media. There are two main hospitals and one major clinic in Falluja. The main hospital (formerly called Saddam General, now called Falluja General) is downtown. During this operation, the Marines never went downtown (again, I can point these out on a map). The main clinic located on the 'peninsula' west of town was shut down. The Jordanian Hospital is not in Falluja, but is nearby. The hospital administration shut it down for two weeks because of security issues. But was reopened at the U.S. insistence. I have no citation for this, but can show you where Falluja and Jordanian Hospitals are in relation to Falluja and the Marine lines.)


In the opening days, it was reported that up to a third of the civilian population had fled the city.[23]

(The amount of persons leaving the city overwhelmed the Marines and Army checkpoints. Even this article stated that those with a Fallujah plate was allowed out. This ment that Falluja residents were allowed to leave, foreign fighters and outside insurgents weren't.)


At noon on April 9, Paul Bremer announced that the US forces would be unilaterally holding a ceasefire, stating that they wanted to facilitate negotiations between the Iraqi Governing Council, insurgents and city spokespersons, and to allow government supplies to be delivered to residents[24]

(IMO, there was no 'ceasefire'. According to several reports, deaths, casualties and insurgent activites increased during this 'ceasefire'. I will try to find these reports on the internet to post them.)


The resulting fighting spread throughout the country with various elements of the Iraqi insurgency taking advantage of the situation and commencing simultaneous operations against the Coalition forces; this period marked the emergence of the Mahdi Army militia of Shiite firebrand cleric Muqtada as-Sadr as a major armed faction which at that time actively participated in anti-Coalition operations, the happenings were also puncuated by a surge of Sunni rebellion in the city of Ramadi. During this period, a number of foreigners were captured. Some were killed outright, others were held as hostages in an attempt to barter for political or military concessions. Elements of the Iraqi police and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps (the militia set up by the Coalition to form the core of a future Iraqi Army) also turned on the Coalition forces or simply abandoned their posts.

(This gives the view that it was U.S. forces that 'created' Muqtada as-Sadr when in fact he was a radical, power hungry leader since the war began) Meanwhile, an Iraqi judge issued an arrest warrant for a radical Shiite Muslim cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr (search), for the slaying of another Shiite leader shortly after the Iraq war began. Al-Sadr has called for revolt against coalition forces. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,116144,00.html

(There was no universal abandonment by Iraqi Security forces. Iraqi units that fought WITH the U.S. forces were: 30th Iraqi Command BN, part of the Iraqi Special Operations BDE (ISOF) Iraqi Counter Terrorist Force (ICTF) 505th Iraqi Civil Defense Corps (ICDC)

Only the 504th and Iraqi police (both located near the city center) were suspected to either have abandoned thier posts, or defected. After the ceasefire, the Iraqi police returned from their 'homes'. They stated that they were not soldiers and did not want to fight on either side (at least that was thier story)

Today in Fallujah, the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force and the with the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps continue Operation Vigilant Resolve. http://www.cpa-iraq.org/transcripts/20040409_sanchez_finish-full.html

About 1,200 Marines, joined by two battalions of the Iraqi Civil Defense Corp., began surrounding the city with checkpoints. Only vehicles with Fallujah license plates were permitted to enter and exit the city. http://www.katc.com/Global/story.asp?S=1761282&nav=EyAzM2hB

The U.S. attacks were taking a great toll on civilians as well as the insurgents however, and faced growing criticism from within the Iraqi Governing Council , where Adnan Pachachi said, "these operations by the Americans are unacceptable and illegal."[26]

Red Crescent Ambulances dropped off ammo and weapons and then picked-up bodies. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oif-vigilant-resolve.htm


On April 9, US forces, which had by then only managed to gain a foothold in the industrial district to the south of the city, declared a unilateral ceasefire under pressure from the Governing Council. As a consequence, much-needed humanitarian relief which had been held up by the fighting and blockade finally managed to enter the city, notably a major convoy organized by private citizens, businessmen and clerics from Baghdad as a joint Shi'a-Sunni effort.[citation needed]

(There was a number of privately organized relief efforts, but I am unaware of any joint effort with the Shia and Sunni. That is not to say that there wasnt.)


Although hundreds of insurgents had been killed in the assault, the city remained firmly in their control. The end of major operations for the time being led to negotiations between various Iraqi elements and the Coalition forces, punctuated by occasional firefights.

(Was the city in control of insurgents as the article stated, or was it handed over to the Falluja Brigade as the article stated? Even if they FB were not U.S. friendly, they DID have a purpose of returning normalcy tot he city.)


On April 13, US Marines fell under attack from insurgents located within a mosque. An airstrike destroyed the mosque, prompting a public outcry.[27]

(There was a lot more than one mosque attacked. Several insurgents that were captured while bunkered in the mosques. When questioned, some stated that they were not in the mosques to deter U.S. attacks or for propaganda reasons. Rather they were there because they wanted god to protect them during thier fight. This illustrates both sides of the conflict to automatically characterize the use of these mosques as either the 'Americans attack against god' or 'insurgents acting against Geneva conventions'. )


Widespread media and independent reports that the United States had used incendiary weapons such as white phosphorus or napalm in the First and Second Battle of Fallujah were rebuffed by US sources, who admitted that Mark-77s had been used in the war the year prior, but no similar weapons had been employed in Fallujah.[32] Several days later, this was contradicted by the admission that white phosphorus had been used in Fallujah, though only for "illumination", "screening" and "psychological" purposes.[33]

First, napalm or napalm-like incendiary weapons are not outlawed. International law permits their use against military forces, which is how they were used in 2003. http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive_Index/Illegal_Weapons_in_Fallujah.html

(White phoshorus is also an incendiary weapon, and as such is also allowed by international law. If there is a view that it should not be allowed by law, then there should be a move to change the law, not accuse the military of breaking the law.)


Critics of the battle have contended that it contravened the Fourth Geneva Convention, by the use of unguided munitions targeting civilian population centres.[34] [35][36] [37]

(The Geneva Convention specifically states that ANY area that is being used by combatants is no longer protected.) http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/380?OpenDocument

(I would suggest changing the name of this artile back to 'Operation Vigilant Resolve'. The operation was part of a larger task to pacify Al Anbar. Restricting the article to Falluja will not allow you to continue to truthfully use all of the other casualties that occurred in other cities in Anbar.)

--65.191.60.188 17:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

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