Talk:Finnish mythology
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[edit] Merge
A lot of the information in Finnish paganism is the same as here. A good deal of it should be moved here (if it's not present already), but I think that certain parts of that article should remain (shamanism, modern revival). --Tydaj 18:32, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Punctuation
The article originally said about the recorded history of Finnish mythology:
- Surprisingly much more wasn't written down until Elias Lönnrot composed the Kalevala.
Now this struck me as odd - it looks like there could well have been much more recorded history between Agricola and Lönnrot, but only the Kalevala added surprisingly much more. (The Finnish people were greatly surprised!) I edited this to:
- Surprisingly, much more wasn't written down until Elias Lönnrot composed the Kalevala.
which is closer to the intended meaning. — JIP | Talk 11:22, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Cleanup
Did a lot of cleaning up and revising, mostly purging modern Neo-Pagan speculation and straightening out the language. BTW, it should be noted that Finns *did* assimilate a lot of deities from the surrounding areas, so comparisons with other mythological figures aren't automatically an attempt to hark back to some mythical shared pantheon. And cleaning speculation up is not some anti-Pagan hatred, just in case someone objects--I'm Pagan myself but would prefer accurate information on various world mythologies and folklore and not idle speculation and pseudohistory. There is very little information to go on when it comes to ancient Finnish religion, despite the amounts of poetry and folklore. I'd love to see some proper sources quoted here as well, such as the Laestadius treatise on Lapp religion.Snowgrouse 18:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Higher standard
Does the introduction to this article not strike anyone as a bit juvenile? It actually sounds bizarrely familiar to the "interchangebale parts" approach to ancient European belief systems summarized on the backs of 99.9% of Llewellyn publications. That neopagans would be "keeping the flame of traditional Finnish beliefs alive" (my paraphrase) is almost as ridiculous as saying that Wicca represents true ancient European religions. Wicca, and neopaganism in general, are by no means continuations of ancient Europeans belief systems; rather, they, at best, draw on those beliefs in constructing their own belief systems, or, at worst, twist the tenets of those ancient belief systems to fit their own ideological (usually left-wing universalist) ends (e.g., all the ancient gods are "aspects" of a single Supreme Being/Goddess-God, etc.). Revise this article so that it reads more like a scholarly work, and less like a "plug" for neopaganism.
- Agreed. I see no reason why an encyclopedia entry should present modern speculation and outrageous claims as fact, as if all Finns somehow observed ancient rites. Neo-Paganism is Neo-Paganism, Finnish mythology as it existed in the olden times is not the same thing. Snowgrouse 17:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
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- Narsil27 Snowgrouse: Great job on the edit. Actually, I'm the one who wrote the "Higher Standard" comment. Sorry if I came off a bit harsh. No offense meant. I actually find Finnish mythology fascinating.
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- No prob. I'm not keen on pseudohistory or the various groups of Finnish Neo-Pagans who keep spreading their own stuff on the Internet as representative of proper history or current interpretations/revivals of the mythology or (Neo-)Paganism in general. If pseudohistory comes from the realm of religion and exists primarily to support faiths, that's the realm it should stay in.Snowgrouse 06:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Milky way
The Milky Way is still today referred to as Linnunrata in Finland.
I wouldn't say refeffed. As far as i know Linnunrata is the only finnish name for milky way and therefore its official name.
[edit] Original research
This article makes a lot of claims while citing NO sources whatsoever. – ∅ (∅), 21:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- This Artical is very much true, my Last name though in Suomi means Dweller of the Land and also can mean a strong Mascilne Bear! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.176.16.61 (talk • contribs) 02:58, July 13, 2006 (UTC)
[edit] More mixed than the others?
The first sentence in the article: Finnish mythology consisted of a belief in various indigenous nature spirits and gods, mixed with the more shamanic influences of the Sami people in the north and the Baltic and Viking influences from the south and the west.
This is like a plague. The article of Finnish history says at the very beginning that Finnish history is much influenced by other peoples and countries, and now this article says at its beginning that Finnish mythology is especially a mix (and apparently that other mythologies are less mixed). Like finns would be passive and not creative just like germanist racists have believed. Only few decades ago it was believed that finns are also racially mixed more than other Europeans, until it was proven false by DNA-tests.
No other mythology article says at its beginning that this certain mythology is mixed. This gives the false image that Finnish mythology is more mixed than ohter mythologies. In fact all the mythologies are mixed with neighbouring ones and Finnish is not more mixed than the others. Both Thor and Ukko are from Baltic Perkons, and Baltic Perkons and is again loan from other peoples, and so on. Actually if you look to Scandinavian or Baltic mythologies you see a lot less "own" stuff than in Finnish mythology. Finnish mythology is not just a mix from Lappish, Scandinavian and Baltic mythologies but it has a lots of its own, that is originated from the linquistic and cultural ancestors of the Finns and hold by them for millenias. Many of the most important myths, for example the myth of world tree and the myth of creation of world from egg are not loans from lapps, balts, vikings or any other now existing groups but they are part of own original beliefs of ancestors of finns. Many mythologies all over the word shares similar beliefs, but not because of mixing, but because originally all the cultures are from the same source, just like all the people are from the same source.
Finnish mythology is a part of Finnic mythologies which have lots of their own features. Finnic aspect is a lot more important in Finnish mythology than Germanic, Baltic or Slavic aspects Tuohirulla puhu 00:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] I'm taking this on
Having read this & related articles, I couldn't agree more with the comments above from people like Snowgrouse, Narsil, Tuohirulla, etc. about the inadequacies of this article (& many of the related articles), the need for references, the need to keep a clear separation between authentic ancient mythology & traditions & the revival of some traditions in Neopaganism. As it happens, I've been collecting some pretty good reference materials on Finnish & Finno-Ugrian myth & folklore, etc. for several years. I don't speak/read Finnish (I hope to someday), but there's been a slowly growing corpus of reliable stuff in English from some of the real experts in the field. So I've begun going through it methodically, taking notes, & will be making some serious edits soon.
I already redid the stuff on the (nonhistorical) St. Urho a few days ago, & have been making random minor edits on related pages already. I was shocked to discover that somewhere in the history of the page on Ilmatar (the Lönnrot-invented mother of Väinämöinen), someone had decided that she was also the mother of Ilmarinen & Lemminkäinen!!! Yikes!
Wish me luck.
Yksin 21:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
- I look forward to your edits! Could I bother you to cross-edit Finnish paganism and Finnish neopaganism as well? - WeniWidiWiki 22:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
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- I plan to do a lot of work on Finnish paganism too -- I've kinda got a working idea (as I wrote on that topic's talk page) of how to divide up the subject matter between the two pages. About Finnish neopaganism I know far far less, since as far as I know it's mainly in Finland (whereas I'm in Alaska), & probably also mostly in Finnish, which I don't know. But I'll do what I can. Thanks for your welcome. -- Yksin 01:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
