Talk:Film noir

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July 2006 – November 2006

[edit] French film noir in the late 1930s

Hi, I just wanted to see what other editors thought about incorporating some of the content below in the Film Noir article. It discusses the use of the term "film noir" to refer to French films in the late 1930s. This paragraph is from the Nino Frank article, about the French film critic who coined the term "film noir": Charles O’Brien’s research indicates that the term “film noir” was used in French film reviews and newspaper articles in 1938 and 1939, to refer to French films such as Quai des brumes by Marcel Carné (1937) and La Bête humaine, by Jean Renoir (1938). O’Brien states that he found a “dozen explicit invocations of film noir” in the late 1930s, such as the paper L'lntransigeant, which called Quai des brumes a "film noir” and the newspaper Action française, in which a January 1938 film review by Francois Vinneuil called Le Puritain "un sujet classique: le film noir, plongeant dans la débauche et le crime." (“a classic subject: the film noir, plunging into debauchery and crime”). [6] ^ Charles O'Brien. Film noir in France: Before the Liberation . From filmmuseum, Spring 1996 Available at: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:QAIQ3W8LZoQJ:www.filmmuseum.at/jart/projects/fm/releases/de/resources/textarchiv/TexteDownload/Foyertexte/Foyer_Film-noir-in-France_OBrien.pdf+%22nino+frank%22+critic+film&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=19 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nazamo (talk • contribs) 16:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

I think it's a fine idea to include. We just have to be careful not to confuse the demonstrable fact--that the term was used by French critics to describe certain French films of the 1930s and then repurposed to describe certain American films of the 1940s--with the contestable claim (never well-evidenced) that one set of films actually influenced the makers of the other set. I think one sentence at the appropriate point in the "Prehistory of noir" section can cover it well.—DCGeist 17:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First sentence

The first sentence currently reads:

Film noir is a cinematic term used primarily to describe stylish Hollywood crime dramas, particularly those focused on sex and corruption.

"Focused on sex" doesn't sit well with me. It's not so much that it's incorrect, as that it's too open to too many different interpretations. The most direct interpretation of this sentence would be that "film noir" describes porno movies that include themes of crime and corruption. I would recommend:

Film noir is a cinematic term used primarily to describe stylish Hollywood crime dramas, particularly those where moral ambiguity is a prominent theme.

KarlBunker 15:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Pondering... Of course you're right in the hypothetical. The use of "sex" in the current sentence accords perfectly with one of the Wesbter's definitions of sex: "sexually motivated phenomena or behavior"—which, aside from crime itself, is the narrative element most often central to movies described as "film noirs." Granted, that is the number 3 definition of sex. I can't imagine anyone actually thinking that film noir describes a certain brand of porno, but as you suggest, it's possible.
Here's my thought on the recommended substitution—"moral ambiguity" comes up frequently in discussions of noir when the elements frequently at play are in fact sympathy with and/or attraction to the immoral. Is there any ambiguity about the moral status of Howard Neff's behavior in Double Indemnity? No: his actions are very, very bad. But we're rooting for him. He might have been a (marginally) good person in the past, but that's not why we're on his side; it's because we appreciate his motivation. Speaking of whom, How about Phyllis? She's presented as downright evil. But very attractive. Similarly for White Heat: Cagney's character is bad, crazy bad. No ambiguity in moral status. But he's the most attractive person on screen.
For the opposite side of the coin, take another classic: Dark Passage. Yes, Bogart's character has been convicted of a crime and then escapes from prison. Lauren Bacall's character harbors him illegally. But these are clearly good people. Bogart was falsely convicted; Bacall believes in his innocence and has fallen in love with him. Their moral status is entirely unambiguous; we root for them in an uncomplicated way to succeed in their nominally illegal activities. Of course, like sex, moral ambiguity may be interpreted differently, but--in the absence of a complex analysis of audience sympathies and the philosophical relation of legal codes to moral behavior--I think most people relate the term to the characters' status: "moral ambiguity" means it's very difficult to identify the characters as essentially good or bad. Before the 1950s, and movies like Night and the City and Touch of Evil, I think this kind of basic moral ambiguity is less than common in noir. Out of the Past might be a good test case. I don't see it as particularly ambiguous. Mitchum's character is sexually motivated to do a lot of bad things. But he's framed, represented both at beginning and end, as an essentially good person. Thoughts?
The rhetorical punch of the existing sentence serves a purpose, but if there is a real possibility of it being misread, it can certainly be changed. Maybe starting this way: Film noir is a cinematic term used primarily to describe stylish Hollywood crime dramas, particularly those focused on sexual motivations and X, or Film noir is a cinematic term used primarily to describe stylish Hollywood crime dramas, particularly those in which sexual motivations and X are central.
—DCGeist 22:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Good points. I guess my point wasn't that there's any realistic possibility of the word "sex" being misunderstood by anyone, but rather that it just looks wrong. You're right that "moral ambiguity" is about equally as broad and vague as "sex". But thanks to that vagueness, it does apply to all of your examples, because it applies to the audience's reaction to a movie as well as the characters in a movie: If a (presumably non-evil) audience is rooting for an evil anti-hero, that's a form of moral ambiguity. Likewise if a (presumably law-abiding) audience agrees that a character is doing the right thing when he breaks the law. I think most people include that interpretation in their understanding of what "moral ambiguity" means. And with that inclusion, it fits film noir a lot better than "sex" or "sexual motivation" do. In addition to the unavoidable "titter factor" of dropping the word "sex" onto people's laps, there's also the fact that "sexual motivation" is "central" to maybe 90% of all movies/stories/novels/plays/actual events/epic poems/knock-knock jokes/etc. (okay, maybe only 60% of knock-knock jokes). So in that sense it's just plain incorrect to use it as an identifier of noir. "The protagonist is motivated by sexual obsession" would be a lot more specific to noir, but of course that would exclude too many noirs. I still think "moral ambiguity" coupled with "crime" does the best job (in a single sentence) of separating noirs from other movies. KarlBunker 01:48, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Excellent observations. It's the good point colloquy! Bulleting it:
  • Americans need to be cured of their (yes, our) goddamn "titter factor" when it comes to sex, which produces all sorts of social inanities and perversions. Can only be done by normalizing straightforward, non-tittery discussions of the topic and usage of the word.
  • You're absolutely right about the ubiquitous "centrality" of sexual motivation. I'd say that noir is distinguished in most (never all) cases by an emphasis on it. Relative to noir (and taking into account transformations of both the genre and the broader culture over time), almost all other narrative forms prevalent in U.S. mass media either romanticize or more coyly skirt around the sexual motivations at their core.
  • Point taken about "moral ambiguity." I resist it because I think it would be much more interesting for people to recognize that what they're doing when they fall for noir is not really "aesthetically appreciating the moral ambiguity of the characters" but "being attracted to the immoral behavior of the characters (thus bringing into question one's own moral position)," but you're probably right about the way most people articulate this to themselves and others.
  • Sacrificing rhetorical strength for conceptual precision, how about: Film noir is a cinematic term used primarily to describe stylish Hollywood crime dramas, particularly those that emphasize sexual motivations and moral ambiguity. I'd even go for moral ambiguity and sexual motivations, which reverses the true priorities as I see it, but is a stronger-sounding sentence.
—DCGeist 02:22, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I'll buy that as a good compromise (in either order). KarlBunker 11:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I'll rotate them like a good gyro.—DCGeist 20:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When did the term "film noir" come into popular usage in the US?

In the commentary track on the DVD of Out of the Past, James Ursini says that the term "film noir" was largely unknown in the United States until the late 1970s. Is that correct? It seems late. --Mathew5000 00:50, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

It probably just meant that popular culture didn't pick up the term until the late 70's. Maybe it was only used by the film school and film-making community? --PhantomS 01:59, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
French critic Nino Frank is generally thought to have been the first to use it and apply it to Hollywood movies. He first used it in an article in 1946 [1]. As the main article says, it wasn't generally known as a term, even by the people making the "noir" films, until quite a bit later. -- SteveCrook 02:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I knew that, but I had assumed that the term was reasonably well known among US film buffs and critics by the mid-60s, at the latest. For example, the Wikipedia article Chinatown (film) says in the first sentence that the 1974 film featured elements of film noir. Would that have been mentioned in any American newspaper reviews of Chinatown when it was released? --Mathew5000 08:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I did some "research" on Google and I think I've answered my own question. Petra Désirée Nolan’s PhD thesis (chapter 2, notes 31 and 32) says that the term ‘film noir’ was “appropriated into an Anglo-American discourse in the late 1960s”, citing the 1968 book Hollywood in the Forties (ISBN 0498069281) by Charles Higham and Joel Greenberg. Also an article by James Naremore [2] tends to confirm the importance of the 1968 Higham and Greenberg book in introducing the term, although both Nolan and Naremore mention that Webster’s Dictionary gives 1958 as the first time the phrase ‘film noir’ appeared in English. However, this article by Philip French from the TLS mentions that Julian Maclaren-Ross had written an attack on the genre in 1947. --Mathew5000 10:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
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