Talk:Filipino people

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--Jandela 04:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)Archives:Talk:Filipino people/Archive 1 & Talk:Filipino people/Archive 2

1 Removed Hispanics as a relative ethnic group
2 Reversion war regarding filipino ethnicity
3 The Filipinos' relation to Hispanics
4 Now Arabs and Indians?
5 A Clear Definition of Hispanic
6 Role of Filipinos in the Mexican War of Independence

[edit] Removed Hispanics as a relative ethnic group

referencing from the wikipedia page on "Hispanic" it says and i quote:

"Although most Hispanics have a Spanish surname, not all do, and while most Spanish-surnamed people are Hispanic, not all are (e.g., there are tens of millions of Spanish-surnamed Filipinos, but very few, only about 3.5%, would qualify as Hispanic by ancestry." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jandela (talk • contribs).

It has nothing to do with ancestry or descent. Many Hispanics do not have Spanish ancestry, for example. It has to do with culture (aka ethnicity). Maliwanag na ba, pare? --Chris S. 12:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I reverted your edit because the infobox is not saying that Filipinos are Hispanics (I resent being called a Hispanic, by the way) but that Filipinos are RELATED to Hispanics due to Spanish influence. --Chris S. 04:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

ok then, i will also add chinese and taiwanese, because of the influence that chinese culture has had on filipinos aswell as the theory of Filipinos originating from Taiwan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jandela (talk • contribs).

Apples and oranges, Jandela. The Philippines was never a colony of China. 10% of Filipinos never spoke Chinese as they did with Spanish according to the Ford report in the early 20th century. The Chinese never introduced Roman Catholicism. Filipinos were never Chinese citizens. Do you see what I'm getting at? --Chris S. 12:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

oops i did forget to sign my comments, thank you for filling that in. Chris i actually don't think chinese or taiwanese should be inserted but my point is that we should just focus on promoting us as Filipinos rather than trying to over-analyse who we are. It almost seems like other nations are mentioned just as much as ours in this article that is supposed to be about Filipino people. I know that you are a proud Filipino and so am I and thats why i respect you and don't mind a little debate but i think we both want the same outcome. Anyway lasing ka na ako and its time for sleeps. Paalam. --Jandela 00:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

This thing brings to mind that Filipinos never consider themselves as 'hispanics' the way Latin America does. The article Hispanic says so. The Philippines is never (and doesn't consider itself) considered to be a part of the 'Hispanic world' (just look at that map on the article). There is such a very big difference between what is Hispanized (that state of being Hispanic - The Philippines never considered to be in this state) and Hispanicized (to become hispanic - that process of being hispanic (which is a tendency in this wikipedia). Take for example the City of Zamboanga. This city cannot claim to be 'hispanic' in the sense that the whole Philippines does not claim to be hispanic. However, it can, in a process, be 'hispanicized' becuase of the fact most Zamboangueños speak the Spanish-based creole languages Chavacano. In fact, the city right now calls itself (and has every right to do so), Latin City of Asia. In light of this, there is no such thing as 'hispanic' in the Philippines in the 'ethnicity' context. Weekeejames 12:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Since when has relgion have anything to do with wether your hispanic or not?? Do you guys actually think that Spanish people or people associated with Spain are the only people who are Roman Catholic??? It almost looks desperate that the Filipinos here who are trying to argue that "Hispanic" is a related 'ethnicity' to 'Filipino' people are trying so hard to find little threads of connection to Spain and being Hispanic, when to so many its obvious that we plainly are not. Someone here has boasted that in 1982 or something aournd 10% of filipinos spoke spanish....SO WHAT, is that supposed to be good?? is that supposed to be an amount even close to being able to relate the other 90% who couldnt to Spain??.

A few are referencing to an outdated and misleading definition of the word ethnicity.

I have read here on wikipedia in the Hispanic page that 30 odd years of American rule have had more influence than 300 years of Spanish rule. Should American be a related ethnic group?? NO, i dont think it should either.

The argument is stupid and is an argument that could only happen on wikipedia where dillusional people use this page as a "propaganda" like machine to try and portray themselves as something that deep down inside they know they are not.

and why was the rest of the discussion articles deleted and where can i access them if need be? --Jandela 04:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reversion war regarding filipino ethnicity

I suggest that the currently ongoing reversion war be put on hold while the issue is discussed here. The war seems to hinge on a difference of opinion regarding the meaning of the term Ethnic group. Perhaps a perusal of the wiki pages on Ethnic group and Ethnicity might be helpful. -- Boracay Bill 06:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'd be glad to...although I'll be retiring about now, so tommorow it is. Cali567 07:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I further suggest that the original proponent of this sub section submit this article for protection or semi protection, based on your statements, Bill. --Ate Pinay (talk•email) 08:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Filipinos' relation to Hispanics

I have removed Chinese and American from the related ethnic group category. The reason is that these groups do not compare. Here are some points to consider:

The majority of Filipinos are Roman Catholics. They are not Taoists, Confucianists, or Buddhists. This means that we celebrate religious holidays and other festivals that the Spaniards started like Nuestra Señora de Peñafrancia, Undas (Honras) aka Día de los Santos, Sinulog (to honor the Santo Niño), La Hermosa, El Círculo Fernandino, Santa Cruzan, Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe (especially in my father's barangay of Guadalupe Nuevo in Makati), Nuestro Padre Jesús Nazareno, Semana Santa (Cuaresma), Flores de Mayo (my grandmother was Reina Elena), oh, and of course Christmas which is called Pasko or Paskwa (derived from Spanish Pascuas de Navidad) depending on what Philippine language you speak. And on Christmas Eve we do Noche Buena. What Chinese festivals do Filipinos celebrate except for those who live in China Town during the Lunar New Year? Do the majority of Filipinos consider feng shui anything more than a passing fad? How about Halloween? Or Thanksgiving?
The Spanish created the Philippines by uniting these various islands and ethnic groups into one country. Historic trade with China does not mean we are related to the Chinese.
The Philippines was part of Spain for over three centuries. China never colonized the Philippines. The US was only there for 46 years.
Even during the infancy of US colonial rule, the Philippines was functionally a Hispanic country with over 10% of the population being able to speak in Spanish - this is according to the Ford Reports conducted by the US government during the 1910s. Why, here's an image of a San Miguel Beer ad from 1924, from a Spanish-language magazine in the Philippines.
Philippine music and dance has a lot of influence from Spanish. Take these traditional dances like the fandango, la cariñosa, curacha, escala, la jota mancadena, la catalana, lanceros de negros, mascota, pantomina culebra, dos amigos, soriano, polka antigo, and others. Haranas are from Spanish "jarana."
The Hispanic-based philosophical thought of Filipinos is evident in terms such as amor propio, delicadeza, and palabra de honor.
Philippine architecture - if you have been around the Philippines like I have, you can see the similarities with other Hispanic countries. Intramuros is a good example.
Family structure - The structure of the Philippine family is more Hispanic-centered than Chinese. With Filipinos, both sides of the family are important but with the Chinese, it's patrilineal.
The food, oh yes the food - adobo, pandesal, lechon, polvoron, chicharon, asado, I could go on and on.
Spanish surnames. And yes, I know about the Catálogo alfabético de apellidos (I created the article a year and a half ago).

This message is not intended to be an exhaustive treatise, but I really want you guys to understand that the Hispanic component in Philippine culture is not limited to mere superficial influence which reflects the extent of the American and Chinese cultural influences. The Hispanic component has permeated the Filipino inside and out. It is reflected in his thought and dress. People may see this as me proposing that Filpinos are Hispanic. I am not proposing that at all - since most Filipinos (myself included) do not consider ourselves Hispanics (probably because of this). However, Filipinos know that there is a bond between us and them. That we are considered a part of the Hispanidad.

And again, I repeat that this is not about genetics or bloodlines or race. Remember that ethnicity transcends race'. It has to do with culture. And the dramatic cultural shift - the Hispanization process - that indigenous Filipinos have undergone since Magellan first set foot in the archipelago is paralleled by many other groups in Latin America. The majority of the inhabitants of Paraguay, the Guaraní, are a perfect example for they have largely preserved their indigenous tongue but yet are still considered Hispanics.

I really hope you guys reflect profoundly upon what I have written here. This is not some mere fascination with me wanting to be associated with Hispanics - far from the case. It reflects the facts that I have come to gradually learn in my studies of my own ancestral homeland. --Chris S. 04:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Really..this is getting ridiculous. Your argument only has clout as long as you keep distorting the word "ethnicity". I don't even want to go into how much Filipinos are "ethnically" related to the Chinese and Americans. The fact that most Filipinos are Catholic is of no consequence...If a village in Africa were to be converted - would that mean they're a part of the same ethnic group as Irish people? Please do tell.

Filipinos know very much about American culture and they follow it very closely...you can't tell me they don't! To take away the influence of the Chinese in one swipe is just stupid. You know people will not just let this go. In all fairness, the inclusian of Chinese and American are very important. I'll beleive Filipinos are ethnically related to Hispanics when they are welcomed by Hispanics themselves.

"*The Spanish created the Philippines by uniting these various islands and ethnic groups into one country. Historic trade with China does not mean we are related to the Chinese."

This is just a space filler...where does it help your argument?

...And the music thing!!! Latin America's Polka's were introduced by German, swiss, etc. settlers...so Mexicans, Cubans, and Guatemalans are a part of the same ethnic group as Germans...(well, probably more so than Filipinos are related to Hispanics)

Architecture...architecture, architecture! This means people are related to other people?????? Please, all of your points are not really helping you! Although, if you're right, I'll be Italian next year when I build my house in the Italianate style! and the Spanish names too, that doesn't help you! They were inforced, not inherited! Just let it go...C.Kent87 05:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Be civil please. My opinion on this topic is that, if it is referenced, it should be included. If, say, Ambeth Ocampo, a respected and well-known historian of the Philippines, says in an article or book that Filipinos are ethnically related to Hispanics, then it should be included here. Same goes for the Chinese or Americans. If there is none for either or all, then it shouldn't be included. Although personally I agree with Chris S arguments, Filipinos are more related to Hispanics than they will ever be to the Chinese and Americans, but who says what should be included should not be left to us since it is a technical matter. Better leave it to an authority and attribute it lest we border on original research or assumptions. Berserkerz Crit 13:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with C.Kent87, being Catholic is a minor connection, The people who are saying Filipinos are related to Hispanics just forget about Chinese, people from Taiwan, and of course, Americans! why? why? I'll ask again why? because they themselves want the connection --even if they know it's not 100% true.

How would it be that the Chinese didn't have any influence when they make up more than have of the Mestizo's ancestors! Spanish Filipinos only make up 2% or so....It's an Asian country - no connection yet? hmmm....

Ethnicity is obviously a subjective thing here. Cali567 18:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly why people shouldn't really be editing articles with subjects that they closely identify with, per WP:COI. Shrumster 21:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Try some talk about the subject at hand, not Comments about people...Cali567 04:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the problem with the inclusion of Americans and Chinese is that if we include them then we must also include other ethnicities, such as Malays Indians, Arabs, and Japanese, since they also influenced (although less visibly) Filipino culture, flooding that section. So I think the best solution is to have a limit and I think the limit should only include Hispanics since they are the least controverial, I mean they have an article explaining their affinities with Filipino culture, unlike the Americans or the Chinese.--23prootie 23:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with Chris S. I think the American culture should be included as they subjected the Philippines under colonial rule. We should also consider the fact that our goverment is based upon that of the US. The Chinese should also be included. They were trade partners even in Pre-Spanish times. Their influence can be reflected in our language (like ate and tsinelas). As for the other cultures such as Malays, Indians, Arabs, and Japanese they do have influence in culture especially the Arabs as they introduced Islam to the Philippines (I don't know if its indirectly or directly). As Berserkerz Crit said, it all boils down to verifiable and authoritative references. If there are few references for that ethnic group/s then clump these groups into one section. If that ethnic group has a large amount of refs, create a new article with that in group's influence in mind, create a summary in this article with a link to the new article (see also: or Main Article:).

Sir Ambeth Ocampo's (force of habit, he was my teacher in my Phil. Institutions class)works are good sources of historical info as he will even go against the viewpoint of most Filipino historians if his sources proves that viewpoint is wrong or in need of revision. I'm not saying he is the best authority in Phil. History but he does show a different viewpoint compared to other Phil. historians.

As for Cali567 and C.Kent87, please use a more neutral tone in correcting or reacting to statements that other Wikipedians post. I do not know if you correct and respond to people in your culture with that kind of tone but I think you should not use that for people from other cultures as well. If any Filipino wikipedian has wronged you, please correct them or point the problem nicely rather than hitting them head on with an equally offensive post. Also when countering, add a verifiable and authoritative reference to strengthen your argument. You wouldn't counter immaturity with immaturity, would you?--Lenticel 01:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think Berserkerz Crit nailed the solution to this: follow WP:A -- Boracay Bill 01:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

A few are referencing to an outdated and misleading definition of the word ethnicity.

and why was the rest of the discussion articles deleted and where can i access them if need be? --Jandela 04:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

double post but, i thought this might be useful to some. The definition of Hispanic from the wikipedia Hispanic page : " Hispanic is one of several terms of ethnicity (meaning that it uses only one of the several terms that define an ethnicity) employed to categorize any person, of any racial (racial meaning genetically which is one of the several terms of ethnicity) background, of any country and of any religion (which removes the religion argument) who has at least one ancestor from the people of Spain.." All in all this deifnition means that only around 2% of the Philippines may be considered Hispanic --Jandela 04:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I was under the impression that people actually knew a thing or two about the Philippines...just by checking out the internet, I've read lot's of things about Filipinos -all in about 5 minutes...So, please before everyone starts telling me how to act...look here:

"The majority of Filipinos are Roman Catholics. They are not Taoists, Confucianists, or Buddhists. This means that we celebrate religious holidays and other festivals that the Spaniards started like..." -Chris S.

Well, I've read "The Spaniards introduced Christianity (the Roman Catholic faith) and succeeded in converting the overwhelming majority of Filipinos. About 83% of the total population belongs to the Roman Catholic faith. 9% of Filipino people are Protestant, 5% Muslim, and 3% are Buddhist or some other faith."

To me, this says...he's wrong..look at the percentages...3% Buddhists? That more than there are Spanish-Filipino mestizo's in all the Islands of the Philippines! But, actually...so what if Filipinos are Catholics...Religion doesn't make anyone part of any ethnic group, Sorry!

"Family structure - The structure of the Philippine family is more Hispanic-centered than Chinese. With Filipinos, both sides of the family are important but with the Chinese, it's patrilineal." -Chris S.

Well, guess what I've read..."The Filipino character is actually a little bit of all the cultures put together. The bayanihan or spirit of kinship and comaraderie that Filipinos are famous for is said to be taken from Malay forefathers. The close family relations are said to have been inherited from the Chinese..."

That says alot, right? Not for some, I guess.

"The Spanish created the Philippines by uniting these various islands and ethnic groups into one country. Historic trade with China does not mean we are related to the Chinese." -Chris S.

I read: "The history of American rule and contact with merchants and traders culminated in a unique blend of East and West, both in appearance and culture of the people of the Philippines."

So the Spanish united, but the Americans did too! No denying...

"The American occupation was responsible for teaching the Filipino people the English language. The Philippines is currently the third-largest English speaking country."

If the population of the Philippines as a whole never used Spanish or spoke it at home, but use English (from the Americans) that says the U.S. has done a great job at a Unified Philippines...Hispanics can at least all talk to eachother, right??? Well, not the Filipinos...but they can talk to Americans...

"The food, oh yes the food - adobo, pandesal, lechon, polvoron, chicharon, asado, I could go on and on." -Chris S.

How about the Chinese: "...Filipino-Chinese food came to be. The names identify them: pansit (Hokkien for something quickly cooked) are noodles; lumpia are vegetables rolled in edible wrappers; siopao are steamed, filled buns; siomai are dumplings."

So the Chinese influenced the Filipino foods long before the Hispanics...noodles are Asian, right?

Architecture in the Philippines is not all Hispanic-looking...-------> ^[1] and (scroll and read)^[2]...this is all native architecture in the philippines, read about it ^[3]...these people today walk around cities where Spanish boroque styles may be..but would their ancestors have known what they were looking at? Probably not.

I've read: "A multicolored, hand-woven silk jacket and chiffon silk skirt is inspired by Muslim culture in the Mindanao region of the south Philippines; a hand-woven, hand-beaded crop-top and skirt set takes inspiration from the Igorot tribe of northern Luzon."

Chris S. sent me a note from a "Spanish" guy telling me that Spanish dress has permeated Filipino attire...what about native dress? Filipinos dressed like that long before they "became" Hispanic, Did they not? and Filipinos are Westernized, right? They dress like Americans, not Latin Americans.

American Idol, Hamburgers, etc...they would fare quite better in the U.S. than in Mexico.

There is no denying...Filipinos are quite a mixture, and they may have little connections to Hispanic culture here and there...but they are largely Austronesian and influenced greatly by other Asian groups and the U.S.... If I'm animated, that's just the way I am...stop criticizing me... Thank You. Cali567 04:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

"I've read" statements are not good arguments. I just searched some of Chris S. earlier works and judging by the scope of his research I think your arguments would not stand a chance. Again, try to put sources. In my opinion, only journal articles (there are many free journal articles floating in the net, specially old ones), government sponsored or university sites from the Internet can stand up against "offline" reference books for issues of this kind. Sorry for criticizing you but I think your new post better than before--Lenticel 05:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply to Cali567 & C.Kent

Before I reply, I'm removing myself from the revert war until I have located some reliable sources. I am in the process of obtaining works related to this subject, such as Jaime de Veyra's 1962 La Hispanidad en Filipinas among others which make mention of "la Hispanidad fiilipina" (Philippine Hispanicness). Some web sources (though I don't believe they'are academic - especially the personal account which is the last link) so far: [1], [2], and [3].

For Cali567 and C.Kent87, you guys have told me to stop it or let it go or whatever. I'm sorry, I'm here to stay. I'm willing to work with you two, so I ask the same of both of you.

Now on to the points addressed by C.Kent87:

I am in no way distorting the word "ethnicity." I quote the following from the textbook from one of my two anthropology courses last year (Anthropology: A Global Perspective by Scupin & DeCorse).
1. From page 577: "In chapter 10, we discussed the concept of an ethnic group, which is a collectivity of people who believe they share a common history, culture, or ancestry. We also discussed how ethnicity is based on perceived differences in ancestral origins or descent and shared historical and cultural heritage." This is in sharp contrast with "race" (note the scare quotes), which deals solely with bloodlines and physical features as a result of which. This is further confirmed on page 578 which says that "In other words, one's language or culture is not inherited through biological transmission or genetics. Boas stressed that culture was for more significant in explaining how people in different ethnic groups behaved than any biological factors."
2. Also from page 578: "The objective aspect of the ethnicity is the observable culture and shared symbols of a particular group. It may involve a specific language or religious tradition that is maintained by the group, or it may be particular clothing, hairstyles, preferences in food, or other conspicuous characteristics. The subjective aspect of ethnicity involves the internal beliefs of the people regarding their shared ancestry. They may believe that their ethnic group has a shared origin, or family history, or a common homeland in the past. ... The subject aspect of ethnicity entails a "we-feeling," and a sense of community or oneness, or a distinction between one's own "in-group" versus an "out-group." It doesn't matter whether these beliefs are historically or scientifically accurate, genuine, or fictional."
  How does this all tie in? As I mentioned above, it is pretty clear that Filipinos are not considered Hispanics. The simple reason is that Filipinos do not see themselves as such and neither do Hispanics them as such. However, both Hispanics and Filipinos do feel they have a connection because of their common histories as Spanish colonies and the legacy that Hispanic culture has left upon them. In fact, the Philippines is considered a part of the "Hispanidad" - I was surprised that editors from both this & the Spanish Wikipedia saw it fit to include the Philippines there. Furthermore, many Filipinos believe they have Spanish blood (my family especially, and I have yet to confirm this). I don't know what the true figure is (the 3% figure is from User:Matthewprc's misinterpretation of statistical data from a Stanford University study). Whatever the figure is, it's not important - what's important in this case is that Filipinos believe they have a drop of Spanish blood not the fact they actually have it (see subjective aspect above).
You wrote "Filipinos know very much about American culture and they follow it very closely...you can't tell me they don't! To take away the influence of the Chinese in one swipe is just stupid. You know people will not just let this go. In all fairness, the inclusian of Chinese and American are very important. I'll beleive Filipinos are ethnically related to Hispanics when they are welcomed by Hispanics themselves." You are not getting the point. There is a difference between having your culture drastically transformed by the Spaniards and by singing Britney Spears songs. The field deals with related ethnic groups not sources of cultural influence. So no, I do not deny the fact that the Americans and Chinese have made significant contributions to Filipino culture, but their contribution is pale in comparison to what the Spaniards contributed.
You wrote "This is just a space filler...where does it help your argument?" I apologize if my point was not made clear. That point was that because the Spaniards founded the Philippines, they had a larger-scale impact on the various ethnic groups of the archipelago. To reiterate an example I gave in an earlier comment, the current Filipino family is more oriented towards Spanish family structure and not Chinese. This is another concept in anthropology called kinship and descent.
As for your other two comments and also the one about Catholicism and African converts, it doesn't really help much isolating my statements and then refuting them by engaging in straw man tactics. It has to be taken as a whole.
1. With your religion example, you are comparing apples and oranges. Simple conversion of Africans by Irish to Roman Catholicism does not make those Africans related to the Irish. Now, if the Irish were in Africa for centuries and completely changed their way of life, then there's a different story.
  1. 1. Anthropologists who specialize in the Philippines categorize Filipinos in four or five broad categories like Muslims, Hill Tribes, and Lowland Christians. Lowland Christians are the largest group in the Philippines and they are characterized, among other things, by being the most Hispanic out of all those groups as well as being mostly Roman Catholic. As a matter of fact, anthropologists like the late W. H. Scott make reference to "Pre-Hispanic Filipinos." So I wonder what the opposite of that is, then? Hispanic Filipinos? Hmmm.. Hispanicized?
2. Architecture, music, dance, etc. are all examples of cultural artifacts (see objective aspect above).

Now, I have some questions for you and Cali567.

What does ethnicity mean to you?
What is a Hispanic?
What is a Filipino?
What are some of the most significant contributions by Americans and Chinese people to Philippine culture?
What reliable sources do you have to corroborate that?
Have you ever been to the Philippines?

Thanks for your time. --Chris S. 04:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I've already worked with you...Chinese, Hispanics, and Americans are all "related ethnic groups" of Filipinos...They have greatly influenced the Island...The Hispanics have not been the only "contributing" factor...Filipinos know in their heart who they are...and Hispanics/Everyone else know that Filipinos are not Hispanic. Period. Cali567 05:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If you think we're finished, then I'm afraid you're wrong. We have yet to build consensus. --Chris S. 06:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

PS ~ are you even reading what I am writing? No one is claiming that Filipinos are Hispanic. --Chris S. 06:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Just barely...So, if no one is claiming that Filipinos are Hispanic, why a big fuss about including as a related "ethnic group"? If you go on the Spanish people and Italian people articles you'll see that the only ones included are Blood relatives/ethnic groups...You should go over to the Italians and tell them to include Filipinos because Filipinos are related to Spanish/Hispanic people and Spanish people are ethnically related to Italian people (which I believe, unlike the other "related" example)...Then you'd fulfill your yearnings! Are you going now? Cali567 06:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that Fillipinos are related to Hispanics-the vast, vast majority are Asian/Pacific Islander related to Polynesians. The US Census Bureau does not see Fillipinos as Hispanic. Anyways, WP policy can solve this quite easily. Is there are reputable source claiming Fillipinos to be related to Hispanics? I doubt it. Signature^brendel 06:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Um, the US census is the wrong source to consult. This isn't a matter of saying that Filipinos are Hispanics, it is a matter of saying that Filipinos are related to Hispanics. So of course you won't see it on the census as such. The census is not going to say, for example, that Russian Americans are related to Czech Americans (as both groups are Slavics). --Chris S. 12:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The US census does not count. Its oversimplified and does not distinguish between specific ethnic groups such as thos from India and the Philippines, and anyway who gave th US government he right other people's indentities.--23prootie 07:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I think there's a political motivation why Americans did that, because by doing so they are proving that they are better at colonizing than Spain.--23prootie 07:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The US government is simply one respectable opinion on the issue. This is a non-factual issue- there is no wrong or right. I don't beleive that Hispanics should be mentioned as a related ethnic group- you do. So my question is: Do you have a reliable source? As this statement is disputed a reliable source will be needed. Signature^brendel 07:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I've put in an interlibrary loan request for a book at my library called La Hispanidad en Filipinas (The Hispanicness in Philippines). Another book that I will be requesting is Filipinas, país hispánico (The Philippines, a Hispanic country). There are also works from Ateneo de Manila anthropologist Dr. Fernando Zialcita who has written at length on the subject. So to answer your question, yes, there are several reliable sources to substantiate that claim. Now, the people on the other side of this debate are not doing the same as far as reliable sources on Chinese and American are involved. Arab and Indian will need to be removed (or replaced with Muslim). --Chris S. 12:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disappointed

I'm rather disappointed by the lack of serious responses by both Cali567 and C.Kent. What is it guys? Are you guys just going to revert and not address the arguments I am presenting? Where is the consensus building?

Anyway, here is an excerpt so far of an academic source from Dr. Kevin Nadal of University of Michigan and appears in a peer-reviewed academic journal called Journal of Multicultural Counseling and Development:

"Moreover, many have classified F/Pilipinos as "Hispanic" because of the Spanish colonization of the Philippines for over 300 years (Trevino, 1987)."

"In fact, there are two major differences between Asian culture and Philippine culture. First, there is a strong Catholic presence in the Philippines, which can be accredited to the Spanish rule of the Philippines for over 300 years. Agbayan-Siewert (1995) reports that over 80% of Filipino Americans are Catholic, without including the number of Filipinos who are Christian. Because of this Catholic/Christian-based culture, Filipinos will share many of the same cultural values as Hispanic/Latino Americans (Esperitu, 1992). Moreover, Filipinos will share more cultural experiences with Latinos who are Catholic, than they would to Asian Americans who are Buddhist or Hindu. Secondly, Philippine culture thrives on a very gender-free society. Pido (1986) notes that, 'Filipinos give recognition, deference, and opportunities to any family member, regardless of sex, who show potential to increase the family's status and position.' Unlike their Asian counterparts, Filipino women are not taught to be submissive or passive.

By the way, look at what I got in the mail yesterday (click image to enlarge). It's from the head organizer, a native of Venezuela, of Suramérica y Filipinas saludan a Centroamérica (South America & the Philippines salute Central America) and it involved a cultural event celebrating the Filipinos' Hispanic heritage and relationship to Central Americans. How about that? It was held last year in LA. The accompanying letter that was sent stated "May I extend my deepest, extra gratitude for ... joining me in projecting the Hispanic side of the Philippine community in Los Angeles, into such vast crowds." This event, by the way was televised on the Spanish language channel Univisión. An article about this event can be read here.

That's it for now. I have to thank you guys for motivating me to learn more about my own culture while reviewing various sources. Maraming salamat & muchísimas gracias. --Chris S. 03:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Chris, this may be nice sentiment, but Filipinos are a bit like "Honorary Whites" or "Honorary Hispanics", if you will. You try to bring Latin Americans and Spaniards into your arguments as if it will help make up our minds. Many may believe there is a "connect", but when all is said and done...is it really real.

I apologize for the lateness of my reply to you; I've been busy. But you said it right there - "honorary Hispanics." You acknowledge the special relationship that Hispanics have with Filipinos. --Chris S. 03:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Haha, uum, that means they are not Hispanics yet some give them the title...you mean that's good enough to prove Filipinos are a part of the Hispanic ethnicity?...???Cali567 18:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

First, there is a strong Catholic presence in the Philippines, which can be accredited to the Spanish rule of the Philippines for over 300 years. Agbayan-Siewert (1995) and "Moreover, many have classified F/Pilipinos as "Hispanic" because of the Spanish colonization of the Philippines for over 300 years (Trevino, 1987)."

....I just don't seem to see how this makes an Asian group part of the Hispanic one...mentality-wise...loosely, but I can love the British and our music is influenced by them and I speak the language (which I'll add again, Filipinos do not speak Spanish, it's a fact. And I mean as a whole) and say they ruled the U.S. colonies and we are a "related ethnic group"...yet I'm not of English extraction -I only empathize with them. So, maybe if you use a word other than related "ethnic" group...and even then it's still pushing it. You'll say "Apples and Oranges", but No...it's not.

I do consider Brits to be a related ethnic group to Americans. Extraction, the word you use, is another word for ancestry or descent. Ancestry does not necessarily make an ethnic group. Especially in the case of Hispanics, because Hispanics come from various ancestries - Europeans, Asians (the Japanese immigrants), and Blacks. What links these people together is their culture and language, which was brought over by the Spanish.

I just want to get you and I on the same page - I want you to define, in your own words, what an ethnic groupis. --Chris S. 03:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

You know what? The whole world is related ethnically then!... pick another word to communicate the connect...Uum...the definition of "ethnic" is usually thought of by all as two or more groups related to eachother by blood who share many characteristics...Persians, Arabians, etc...Filipinos, Taiwanese, etc...French, Italian, Spanish, etc...Mexican, Cuban, Argentinian,..and even the latter group with the European group...Everyone usually thinks of ethnicity in this matter...but Filipinos and Spanish, Mexican, Argentinian...not really!. Cali567 18:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I am disappointed that Chris S. could not get a straight answer to a simple question there. Not being Filipino, I don't have a horse in this race. I do have a few comments, though --

The wiki pages on Ethnic group, on Ethnicity, and on other related topics seem clear that ethnicity involves more than genetics. The intro to the Ethnic groups page reads: An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1987). Recognition by others as a distinct ethnic group is often a contributing factor to developing this bond of identification. [1] Ethnic groups are also often united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, ritualistic, or religious traits. [2] Processes that result in the emergence of such identification are summarized as ethnogenesis.
looking at Template:Infobox Ethnic group doesn't produce much help for understanding what a "Related Ethnic Group" might be
looking at pages which use that template, taking a look at individual pages listed there, shows me that most existing pages lean hevily towards genetics in choosing what to list there, though there do seem to be rare exceptions.

I think that the Related Ethnic Groups section of the infobox ought to be omitted if a consensus cannot be reached about what it ought to contain. Perhaps the body of the article could contain a section on Filipino ethnicity, or perhaps there ought to be a separate article which discusses Filipino ethnicity in richer detail than the subject can be presented in the infobox. Perhaps the Related Ethnic Groups section of the infobox in this article could point to the relevent section or separate article where a fuller discussion of this topic can be found. -- Boracay Bill 23:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"Pido (1986) notes that, 'Filipinos give recognition, deference, and opportunities to any family member, regardless of sex, who show potential to increase the family's status and position.'...Unlike their Asian counterparts, Filipino women are not taught to be submissive or passive."

Hispanics do not grant that much control to the female sex, many suppress them quite a bit...But, again, mind-set isn't a good enough reason for an inclusion into ones ethnic group. What if two different cultures from opposite sides of the world (with no contact) had a great many things in common...would we say they are related ethnic groups? (And no, stop thinking apples and oranges :} ...) This seems, otra vez, to make Filipinos seem to be an un-Asian ethnic group...not the case.

"Filipinos will share more cultural experiences with Latinos who are Catholic, than they would to Asian Americans who are Buddhist or Hindu" -Chris S.

I think that's shallow of you to say...Buddhists and others make up about 3-4% of the population...Filipinos can share cultural experiences...just because Catholics may not share doesn't mean they can't -and on the topic of other religions -if one truly believed Filipinos were part of "Hispanidad", it'd be important to note the many contributions of muslims to the Hispanic culture...many Spanish names, words, thoughts, blood lines, etc have their origins in muslim Spain...therefore, so does Latin America (and I've seen quite a bit of architecture to prove it). So Catholics aren't the only ones to come out of the Philippines (and Spain + Latin America).

First of all, I didn't say it. That comes from the academic source that I quoted, Kevin Nadal. Second of all, it appears to me that you view a religious as unimportant or of some insignificance to a particulare culture, which is far from the truth. The Spanish brougth over their customs to the Filipino - Roman Catholicism with a Spanish twist. Have you ever attended a religious festival in the Philippines - if not, perhaps you should, you'd be surprised to see the many Hispanic elements therein. --Chris S. 03:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, no, I wouldn't be surprised...I knew (and have been constantly reminded by you) that the Spanish conquered the Philippines..."Spanish" Roman Catholocism isn't a weird thing to find wherever the Spanish went...Cali567 18:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"Lowland Christians are the largest group in the Philippines and they are characterized, among other things, by being the most Hispanic out of all those groups as well as being mostly Roman Catholic. As a matter of fact, anthropologists like the late W. H. Scott make reference to "Pre-Hispanic Filipinos."

Religion...It has started wars more than any other thing. People convert...that is all. It doesn't change ethnicity. Catholicism is a part of a Hispanic's life (assuming we are talking of Catholic ones), Catholicism didn't make them Hispanic...Filipinos are not "related to Hispanics" because they adopt customs, food recipes (they changed many of the recipes), dress (that doesn't mean most Filipinos wear "Spanish dress"), and religion. Religion is a mentality.

What does religion starting wars have to do with the apples and oranges (grin) in the Philippines? And you are mistaken, religion does change ethnicity. As soon as a sense of oneness is created, once a sense of "us and them" has started, there is an ethnic group. The Jews are a prime of example of an instance where religion plays a huge part of their culture. Many still call themselves Jews even if they are atheist. I take that back, you're right - religion does not change ethnicity. Instead it is the lifestyle and culture centered around the religion that changes the ethnic group. For Filipinos, being a Roman Catholic isn't simply a set of beliefs - it's a way of life that's ingrained into their culture. --Chris S. 03:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, that was extra! don't pay attention to that...but, RELIGION CHANGES NOTHING...Filipinos can hold on to Roman Catholicism all they want...that's of no consequence. Let's not talk religion anymore, it doesn't change your ethnic group. If that was true, I'd be English right now...???Cali567 18:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"...and it involved a cultural event celebrating the Filipinos' Hispanic heritage and relationship to Central Americans. How about that?..."

"Honorary Hispanics" comes to mind again...yes the Latin American countries and the Philippine Islands were ruled by Spain (actually, the islands were ruled by Latin America) and there is that connection. Filipinos borrowed many things, but for me to go to France (even as a baby) and be "immersed" in French everything will not make me a Frenchman -to a point (and I give you the benifit of the doubt)...some Filipinos may be very pro-Spanish, but it doesn't mean they live in a Hispanic country. Just because Whites bestowed "Honorary White" status didn't mean those who recieved it were trult white. Now my argument may not be very strong to you, but please don't refer to me as a person with a "lack of serious responses"... Gracias por todo... Cali567 05:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Your choice of France works against you. A lot of people immigrate to France. During the controversy with religious dress in French schools a few years ago, I watched an interview with Muslim teenagers in France of Arab or Persian descent. They said they considered themselves French. For them, they consider themselves as part of the French ethnic group. Another example is Zinedine Zidane, a French soccer player. His parents are Algerian, but he was born in France. And he is considered French.

Now, what're the criteria to be considered Hispanic or related to Hispanics? Let's take Cuba. The first settlement was established in 1511. Just 10 years latter, Magellan landed in what is now the Philippines. Both, along with Puerto Rico (which was established around the time Cuba was) lost their status as Spanish colonies in 1898. Now, Puerto Ricans and Cubans are undoubtedly HIspanics. But why not Filipinos? --Chris S. 03:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Your Kidding....this is never ending...just say on the page that Filipinos have some history with Spain, but don't go erroneously saying to everyone who will read this article that Filipinos are related to Hispanics...just don't...Cali567 18:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

My responses to Cali567's messages from 3/20th:

Well, are you or are you not going to define, in your own words, what an ethnic group is? C'mon, let's be serious here, and not engage ourselves in slippery slope logic. To me, you are defining ethnic group in the same stripe as race, which isn't entirely true. Because of your confusion over the meaning of the word, you are blind to the fact that Hispanic and Filipinos are related.
Not only did the Spaniards conquer the Philippines, they also conquered the Americas and parts of Africa. Equatorial Guinea is a Spanish-speaking country in Africa, for example.
How can you say religion changes nothing? Don't you know anything about Philippine history? Read up on W.H. Scott's Barangay - Filipino culture was dramatically changed because of Hispanic culture, of which Roman Catholicism was a huge part. I infer from your "I'd be English now" comment that you're infering that I believe that Filipinos are Hispanic. Again, let's be on the same page here, I'm not.
Yes, saying that we Filipinos have a history with Spain is true, but that's only telling half the story. Our direct relationship with Spain ended 108 years ago. However, our relationship with the Hispanic world still continues. --Chris S. 18:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

To Boracay Bill: I'd say that your opinion certainly counts. As an American expat in the Philippines, what is your take on all this? --Chris S. 18:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Postscript - Claro Recto

A quote from Claro M. Recto (original Spanish and English translation below)

No es, ciertamente, por motivos sentimentales o por deferencia a la gran nación española que dio a medio mundo su religión, su lenguaje y su cultura, que profesamos devoción a este idioma y mostramos firme empeñó en conservario y propagarlo, sino por egoismo nacional y por imperativos del patriotismo, porque el español es ya cosa nuestra, propia, sangre de nuestra sangre y carne de nuestra carne, porque así lo quisieron nuestros mártires, héroes y estadistas del pasado, y sin el será trunco el inventario de nuestro patrimonio cultural.

(It is certainly not for sentimental motives or deference to the great Spanish nation that gave her religion, language and culture to half of the world that we profess devotion to this language but because of national egoism and because of imperatives of patriotism, because Spanish is already ours, our own, blood of our blood and flesh of our flesh, for so willed our martyrs, heroes and statesmen of the past and without it the inventory of our cultural patrimony would be wrong.)

--Chris S. 03:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Now Arabs and Indians?

Who put them in the related ethnic group? And Malays are redundantly included (twice). This is getting ridiculous. I forgot a WP guideline for this dang. Anyway, I leave this discussion up to others since I really have no clue on the difference between race, nationality, and ethnicity. I have vague and ambiguous notions of each concept. Maybe when I study sociology and anthropology (late this year on my curriculum). @_@ Berserkerz Crit 13:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this was getting ridiculous; there is a difference between traces of cultural influence and cultural impact and the way it was presented made it imply that all were one and the same. In any case, I've simply removed the whole field until all can be corroborated by reliable sources. --Chris S. 04:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

That is the best thing to do. Once you have proof to back up your claim, no one can dispute it and go into an edit war. ^_^ Berserkerz Crit 12:55, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It's fairly well accepted that the Austronesian people, including Filipino people can be reliably traced via linguistics and perhaps DNA testing back to Taiwan. That does not make them "Chinese." Now, where the ancestors of the Austronesian people were before Taiwan is a bit less clear, though they were on the Asian mainland somewhere. As for other groups.. Spanish etc... they came much much much later. :-) --Ling.Nut 17:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I totally agree with you. Austronesians will returned to that field. --Chris S. 03:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Can Filipinos be just Filipinos? We could just leave the Austronesian relation to separate Filipino ethnic group articles. I mean its less controversial. --23prootie 16:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but this debate has to do with whom Filipinos are related to and not who they are. --Chris S. 23:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Clear Definition of Hispanic

The definition of Hispanic from the wikipedia Hispanic page : " Hispanic is one of several terms of ethnicity (meaning that it uses only one of the several terms that define an ethnicity) employed to categorize any person, of any racial (racial meaning genetically which is one of the several terms of ethnicity) background, of any country and of any religion (which removes the religion argument) who has at least one ancestor from the people of Spain.."

All in all this deifnition means that only around 2% of the Philippines may be considered Hispanic, in my opinion no where close to even consider "Hispanic" as a related ethnic group. In fact places like Macau, are probably more ethnically related to "Hispanics" than we are. --Jandela 04:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply: To User:Jandela! Your comment on Macanese people being hispanics are "WRONG". Since when or who ever said Macanese where related to Hispanics?? Who invented this stories. That's crap!!!. Portuguese mixed with chinese are not hispanic. They are Portuguese-Macanese people. How can you be Portuguese and be Hispnaic at the same time. Portuguese are "not" even Spanish people. And also the majority of people in Macau are chinese descent and Mestiços those of mixed Portuguese and Chinese ancestry form 1% of the population. Once again Macanese are not Hispanics!! Geesh.. thanks!--Gonzalo 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Calm yourself...It's not entirely wrong to say that the Portuguese are Hispanics...they share genetics and are both from the Iberian Peninsula...It's almost like comparing the French to Belgians...relax. If they are part Portuguese then they are closer to Hispanics than other Filipinos are...big deal! Cali567 08:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, what does genetics have to do with it? What does genetics have to do with a black Dominican and a Japanese Peruvian who are both Hispanic? And French and Belgians are related - the French-speaking Walloons in Belgium. --Chris S. 18:25, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply: Sorry but, I am calm down. The problem is that there are to many ignorant peoples who lack common sense. And also do you have sources and facts to back up your statements??-Gonzalo 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Ay, naku - heto na naman tayo. Ethnicity is not limited to ancestry or blood. This is not outdated. This is taught in anthropology courses. My anthropology textbook is dated 2005.

Take note, this is from the very Hispanic page you purport to quote:

"Hispanic" specifically refers to Spain, and to the Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas, as cultural and demographic extensions of Spain. It should be further noted that in a U.S. context, a Hispanic population consists of the people of Spain and everyone with origins in any of Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas, regardless of ancestry of the latter (including Amerindians). In the context of Spain and Latin America, a Hispanic population consists of the people of Spain, and when regarding the inhabitants of the Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas, includes only criollos, mestizos, mulattos, and others with Spanish ancestry, to the exclusion of indigenous Amerindians, unmixed descendants of black Africans and whites or other peoples from later migrations without any Spanish lineage.

Also remember, there is a difference between being related to someone and actually being them. The article is not claiming that Filipinos are Hispanic, but instead is that Filipinos have a special relationship with them, that they are related because of the shared legacy. It has nothing to do with genetics. --Chris S. 04:34, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply: Chris is right!!, At last somebody understands. Also, The term Hispanic is "only" given to true Filipinos who are of "Spanish or Mexican ancestry". -- Gonzalo 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think only two people "understanding" something makes it correct...also, the "true" number of those Filipinos is misleading...and even more so because of the intended inclusion of Hispanics as a related ethnic group...This all leads to one thing.....Filipinos do have a "history" with Spain -but that's not good enough for you people (!)...and they are not related as an ethnic group. Cali567 09:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply: I'am talking about the minority of Filipinos who posses Spanish or Mexican ancestry. Not the entire indigenous population. Do you have facts or sources to back up your statements. --Gonzalo 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Err.... I'm just commenting from the sidelines here, but it strikes me that it might be instructive to peruse the Wilipedia articles on Hispanic and Hispanic cultural legacy in the Philippines. -- Boracay Bill 12:08, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the best solution to is to forget that section altogether since people are not gonna agree ever about which ethnic groups are related to Filipinos. Cali567 has a point, not all Filipinos are related to Hispanics. I mean if you consider Moros, the Igorot, the Mangyan, and the Lumad as Filipinos then classification of Filipinos as related to Hispanics is absulutely wrong. None of those groups are nearly-related to Hispanics. I think that Austronesian shouldn't be mentioned also since not all Filipinos natively speak an Austronesian language. I mean some natively speak English, Chabacano, or Lannang so relating Filipinos to Austronesian excludes them. Besides, the invalidity of genetic relations and terms such as the Malay race mean that Malays and Polynesians cannot be included. --23prootie 16:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Well as I said, the section will be left for now until my sources arrive. And yes, you're right, not all Filipinos are related to Hispanics, which is why I am planning putting "other Muslims" in the field too. The Filipinos who don't speak Austronesian languages are the rare exception and not the rule. We can strive to be as comprehensive as possible, but in the end we won't be able to cover everyone. --Chris S. 00:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Guys, this discussion is getting pointless fast to the point of being ridiculous unless the other side produce some hard references. I was hoping to observe how people with academic expertise in the Philippine Social Science argue but I think I was not able to learn anything at all. I was inhibiting myself in actively participating in this discussion since I believe I do not have the background to argue efficiently. However, your posts are really getting more and more annoying so I must take action. Look, if I use Wikipedia, "simple logic" and Google searches as references for academic purposes, my professors will surely grant me a failing grade. I assume that professors from the Social Sciences will do the same.

For starters I believe you should cite these terms first (only gov't sources, journal articles and books on social studies are acceptable):

Race is related to genetics (I believe Science has discussed this recently)

Definition of Race, Ethnicity, Nationality (Kind of hard to digest really. I studied these terms on one of my General Education courses for an entire semester and I still don't get them)

Guys the goal of wikipedia is to share knowledge by arriving at a consensus not to win discussions because you don't like the article's section. Stop acting like little children and act like real scholars! I hope nobody here just obtained their "expertise" over the internet. Such knowledge should not be used on serious and academic articles like this.

I'm sorry if I was getting offensive, I tried to be neutral but my annoyance at your actions just surface every time.--Lenticel 02:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The thing about the internet is fast and it's easy. It gives the prelimary searches. It has given me the titles, for example, that I need to peruse to put this debate to a rest. However, obtaining the source is taking time - I have requested these titles via interlibrary loan at my local library and in my experience this takes two to four weeks. And by the time they arrive things will have cooled down (and this appears to be the case). This is one of the principle reasons why the debate doesn't look so scholarly. Now, I am hoping that people who disagree with me are doing the same but I don't see any indication that they are doing the same thing. --Chris S. 03:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the argument is stupid and shouldnt exist, I do however think that it does exist because some people feel its a need to mislead the world (wikpedia markets to the world) by even entering a section that lists related ethnic groups, especially when it comes to the Philippines. My argument is that if we put Hispanic as a related ethnic group then we have to put Chinese, American and even Anglo-Saxan as ethnic groups, which is ridiculous. A few have argued we were never Chinese citizens, 10% never spoke chinese like they did spanish according to some report that nobody has even heard about, it makes me laugh that people trying to act like they know Philippines and they have all the recources would even use that argument. Chris getting 1 or 2 or even a hundred South Americans who probably dont know anything substantial or real about the average Filipino's (born and raised in the Philippines) lifestyle to believe that they are hispanic really means nothing, and dosent make it true. More people believe that Chinese and Japanese are the same, does that make it true? And to reply to Gonzalo, i think you misunderstand alot of what im saying and i don't think you know the entire background of this argument so i wont really take the time to explain it to you, but rather i recommend reading all the posts from the above titles. All opinions of pro-hispanic Filipinos and opinions of non Filipinos written in books are NOT reliable scources and are not fact, If any scource were to be even cosidered, it would be from the government of the homeland Nation of the people being discussed, in this case The Philippines, the rest is personal opinion based on different experiences and views.--Jandela 15:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The argument turned it like it did because people have their own ideas about Philippine Hispanicity, and they are very strong about them. That's fine. But, Jandela, none of you guys have given reliable sources or even answered some of my questions so that we can be on the same page about things. What does this tell me? It tells me that you guys aren't serious and that all you are interested in doing is putting forth your own biases. It's hard, but I'm doing my best to assume good faith here; so I hope you guys could prove my impressions wrong. And as of yet, it looks like that this is happening since your fail to formulate a coherent argument. I mean all you're doing is giving your opinion on the arguments here, as well as basing your strongest arguments on the fact that nobody has heard about a particular source (which does not necessarily make it invalid!) or to consider reliable source as only Filipino (which does not make it valid!) Where are your sources that say that Filipinos are not related to Hispanics?

You wrote "they did spanish according to some report that nobody has even heard about". In 1916, Henry Ford submitted a report to US President Woodrow Wilson concerning the Philippines. I quote him about the issue of Spanish:

"There is, however, another aspect in this case which should be considered. This aspect became evident to me as I traveled through the islands, using ordinary transportation and mixing with all classes of people under all conditions. Although based on the school statistics it is said that more Filipinos speak English than any other language, no one can be in agreement with this declaration if they base their assessment on what they hear..."

Spanish is everywhere the language of business and social intercourse...In order for anyone to obtain prompt service from anyone, Spanish turns out to be more useful than English...And outside of Manila it is almost indispensable. The Americans who travel around all the islands customarily use it." (The Ford Report of 1916. No. 3. The Use of English, 365-366.)

You then wrote "Chris getting 1 or 2 or even a hundred South Americans who probably dont know anything substantial or real about the average Filipino's (born and raised in the Philippines) lifestyle to believe that they are hispanic really means nothing, and dosent make it true." You say this without having read a word of what they said. How do you know what they say is true? Do you even know who my sources are? I did not even quote any South Americans. And even if it did, it wouldn't matter what the author's national or ethnic origins are.

I quoted Claro M. Recto above. He is as Filipino as you can get and is one of the most important historic figures in Philippine history. Another one was Jayme de Veyra - another pivotal figure in Philippine history. I am also quoting Blas Piñar's work - who is from Spain and has studied Philippine culture. Another is John Leedy Phelan's The Hispanization of the Philippines. I have a body of academic sources (which, again, is not limited to government sources). Where are yours? Remember, this Wikipedia, cite your sources. Find reliable sources that would justify removing Hispanic. Otherwise, you don't have any justification. --Chris S. 00:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

First, I want to apologize for being rude in my last post. Perhaps real life work has taken a toll. With that out of the way, I want to discuss your replies.

Then who is the authority in the Social Sciences then? Without a main consensus (say, evolution) the world of Science will crumble. So how does the world of Social Science survive then if they ignore authorities just because they don't like their view. If we ignore the opinions of non-Filipinos as unreliable sources then almost all of our history should be discarded as most are studied or documented by foreigners in their own personal view like say the death of Magellan? Also shouldn't there be bias when citing references from your own gov't? I mean if I am assigned to show the world what a Filipino is, I'll make my people look good in my presentation. I'm not doing a straw man attack here as I don't give a damn whether we are Hispanic or not. I want to learn how those in the field of Social Science work.--Lenticel 23:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

There is not just one authority - there are many. --Chris S. 00:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Role of Filipinos in the Mexican War of Independence

During the Mexican War of Independence, Mexicans of Filipino ancestry played a key role. One of them was General Isidoro Montesdeoca who was a Mexican General, and a Lieutenant commander of Vicente Guerrero who fought the Spaniards in the War of Independence of 1810-1821. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.106.135.191 (talk) 15:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

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